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  1. TheBigBadWolf
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
    Proof from Duesseldorf forensics: Cannabis proved to be reason of death

    Duesseldorf/Germany:
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Forensics at Duesseldorf university hospital have found proof for the first time that two young men have died because of their use of cannabis. Obviousy they suffered from severe distortion of rhythm of the heart. On international basis this met big interest as it is getting involved into legalisation debates.

    His girlfriend had found the young man dead in his appartement, at his side there stood an ashtray, cigarette papers and a plastic bag containing marihuana. The young man was built an athletic, at post-mortem no previous illnesses could be found out. After several examinations Duesseldorf uni-hospital forensics found in him as well as in another case of a 23 year old man a heart failure from consuming cannabis as the reason of deaths – a confirmation producing international attention.“From all we know,“ said Dr. Benno Hartung, forensic and co-author of the case study that was published on 'Forensic Science International, “these are the first cases that were worked upon with strictly up-to-date scientific standards“

    Distortion of cardiac rhythm is only logical explanation

    After post-mortem in both cases toxicologic, histologic, immunohistochemical and genetic examinations have been done. „ We don't know what is the reason of death with consuming cannabis. The only logical explanations is they get distortion of heart's rhythm“, the forensic emphasised. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]A different reason for this symptoms could not be found in the two 'healthyand young' men. The 23 year old man had an enlarged heart muscle that also might have caused the rhythm distortions. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The forensics eliminated possible reasons for death step by step until there was nothing left than cardiac failure from consuming cannabis. [/FONT]
    “[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Everything that can be done we did“ Hartung declared. Even the blood had been sent away to a Frankfurt special laboratory for so called 'tests for ion-channel distortion „[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]What we [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]were able to count out, we counted out.“[/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Despite the scientifical evidence that consuming cannabis can have fatal effects Hartung emphasises: [/FONT]
    “[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It is a very rare incidence people develop heart rhythm distortion that would be fatal.“ [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But it would show that this drug does not just have - as widely presumed – a euphorising effect without side-effects.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Despite having cleared these two ,the reason for death scientists are confronted with the question which consumers develop these heart rhythm distortions.There are only few, but up to now nobody actually knows about the parameters that trigger the heart rhythm failures.
    „The problem is we aren't able to estimate who will be getting the heart rhythm failures. For now we think it theoretically could hit every consumer of cannabis, even if they have toked before without developing any symptoms.“ Hartung said.
    How often and which amounts of cannabis have been consumed by these two ablebodied healthy men sadly is not known to the Duesseldorf forensics. Theyy were informed by police thatthey both were routined consumers.

    Immense International Echoes

    Reason for the Duesseldorf hunt for traces was a research paper from 2001 when a norwegian toxicologist examined several unsolved cases of death in her home country, in which she suspected consuming of cannabis as the reason. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Because she had not done complete examinations but only got blood and urine tested as well as having examined the heart, she had earned a lot of criticism. „“Everyone was like -[/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]' this doesn't happen, you don't die from cannabis!'“ Hartung says. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]After all cannabis is proclaimed a soft and thereful harmless drug. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In the following time the Duesseldorf institute collected their cases in which cannabis might have had played a role. Fifteen cases were sieved out by Hartung giving benefit to other drugs, underlying issues and later histological tests. Two cases remained which now were published in that scientifical magazine.

    What hit Duesseldorf uncalled for are the international echoes the release of their case studies caused. Hartung got questions from as far as Great Britain and USA. „We were quite a bit astonished about the size of this“, the forensic said. He as a private person would take a neutral position, and he were neither for legalising it nor criminalisation. Also there were no financial interests involved which was held against him by drug-promoters , who bring forward that Duesseldorf study results could also be used to support pharma industry's sales in painkiller meds, because of cannabis being useful in pain management settings in some cases. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The outcomes of the Duesseldorf study in many places hit into the middle of a legalisation debate. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In Colorado as the first federal state of US lately legalised consuming and selling marihuana. Since the beginning of this year citizensabove the age of 21 can legally buy the drug in shops. In Great Britain in the beginning of february a case of death was led back to joints being present, which again rose critical voicesvoices that spoke of fearmongering.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Cannabis – Belittlers lose arguments

    At least Cannabis-belitters have lost some of their best Arguments. „ In the past they said Cannabis couldn't do harm“ says Hartung in anticiption of a new political debate. Heightened bloodpressure, increased pulse rate and damage to the lungs from smoking were already known as risks. On top Cannabis could trigger an outbreak of a 'resting schizophrenia'.

    But now promoters of it have to take the Dusseldorf evidence into account.
    Cannabis can kill.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Source: Rheinische Post online // http://www.rp-online.de/leben/gesund...-aid-1.4061016 [/FONT]


    [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]BBW[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]

Comments

  1. Xplicit
    I always knew deep down in my heart no matter what anybody said about how Cannabis was 100% safe and what not. That one day it would kill someone and has the potential to be lethal. But that isn't going to stop me or probably anyone from smoking it. But I do think this is like a smack to the face to activists who view cannabis as a absolute pure risk free thing, most of those people are bias. I always was aware of the adverse effects of cannabis and knew it carried long term risks with it but maybe now some of these really biased cannabis activists will get their heads out their ass and stop telling misinformation.
  2. tvedrode
    man.. i knew someday somethin like this would happen.. thats sad, just tryin to toke some green and die.
  3. baZING
    I can't help but wonder if there are simply things that can't be tested for for post-mortem that could be the real cause of death, or at least aggravated by the cannabis. They even say that the one guy had an enlarged heart muscle that may have contributed to this.

    It just seems odd that this is a drug that has literally been used for thousands of years, and somehow there has not been a single reported case of death by weed before now. Statistically, it just doesn't make sense, nor does it make a lot of sense that there were deaths being caused by cannabis and they were all missed or blamed on something else. Yes I see that the other researcher in Norway suspected a number of deaths due to cannabis, but as we all know this is not the same as having proof.

    I'm not arguing anything said in the article, but the fact remains that this is a drug with an incredibly long history of human consumption and something isn't adding up for me when that history is taken into consideration. Note that I am not saying it's "risk-free," nor am I even saying I don't believe this is true. But I am reserving judgment until more about these cases-- if anything-- comes to light.
  4. C.D.rose
    There is one main question that is going through my mind: how do you distinguish a heart failure following consumption of cannabis from a simple heart failure? I should probably read the original research article, but this story seems strange to me.

    And their comment that we don't know how you die from cannabis consumption ("Man weiß nicht, woran man stirbt bei Cannabis-Konsum. Die einzige logische Erklärung ist, dass man Herzrhythmusstörungen bekommt.") sounds like they made up their conclusion beforehand.

    Meh I should probably really read that article and then come back and comment on it. I just wanted to throw in my immediate reaction here.
  5. Basoodler
    Could it be something that isn't obvious like a combination caused by a dodgy sports supplement.. Even mainstream supplements are dodgy these days..

    I mean after thousands of years of use there is nothing documented, but all of the sudden TWO people die of marijuana overdose in the same room. Plus it happens when there is world wide debate on the legalization of marijuana..

    I don't know. I smell fish
  6. mgdude21
    It could be possible their cannabis was cut with any thing that might cause heart failure. I once had a friend who's bud was cut with PCP. he came over to my place without any noticed, tripping balls, scared the shit out of me. Somebody with bad heart problem's, this could have the potentiation of heart failure.

    Some aspect's of this article seems fishy.
  7. Basoodler
    Isn't the word "proof" in scientific terms defined as a clear, defined fact that is proven repeatable through the use of control or stable comparison? If so, this study doest provide proof .. Its a hypothesis

    Otherwise I could say that a scratch on my foot is proof of alien abduction, because I've ruled out all other possible causes (I swear)
  8. Dimethylysergicalyblessed
    I am going to have to agree with every one else in here, there are many new drugs that can't be tested for... Did the case of the guy eating the other guys face in Miami revolve around a smoked joint? Nah they just couldn't even find what they were looking for...

    Sad that marijuana is going to take all the blame for research chemicals that can't be tested for, people are always quick to blame though no surprise.
  9. SideAffektz
    Underlining heart problems, happen to come about after they smoked pot, there was another story like this where a mother of 3 had a joint and coincidently suffered a heart attack, 'societies' logic points to the joint, but then theres the fact heart attacks can happen to pretty much anyone- anytime,,,, that being said before about a combo of diet/protien gym enhancers also leading to heart-kidney and liver issues, and as what someone stated with 'cut' cannabis, then this surely isnt the evil work of pot?
  10. loratabzyumz
    Swim has personally noted changes is heart rate/pattern after smoking a large amount of pot. He has a history of childhood arrhythmia due to anxiety and sometimes smoking marijuana causes similar symptoms. This is usually mild but I think that if someone had a bad enough panic attack from too much pot, it could cause a heart attack.
  11. TheBigBadWolf
    I share the thoughts of many of the posters before me, the proof they claim to have is certainly only evidence.
    In my view there have two guys died, possibly by arrhythmia (how do they diagnose heart arrhythmia when a person doesnt have ANY heartbeat at all - it's not that there were any scars left as in an infarct situation).
    And both of them had obviously consumed cannabis.

    I was present at a car crash.
    That doesnt mean I am the reason of the cars crashing.

    For me this is semantics , nothing else. Publish or die, I heard some scientists say...
    the whole work done was to find two unrelated deaths where somehow evil drugz was found.

    no proof, evidence, at best.

    BBW
  12. C.D.rose
    There seems to be a linguistic malentendu here: 'evidence' is actually the plural form of 'proof' - so if anything, evidence is stronger than proof, although that could technically be debatable. But my point is, if there's evidence, there's proof.

    I found another article in the German weekly Die Zeit, which contested the findings, citing several German forensic scientists, including Prof. Thomasius of the University of Hamburg, known for a rather tough attitude on [noparse]drugs and cannabis[/noparse]. The article can be found here, I would really love to translate it if I had the time, but right I now I really don't. I thought I'd post it nonetheless, at least for the members here who know German. I'll also try to get ahold of the original research article and take a look at it.
  13. Drugfreekid
    Ehm, read this in my local news paper, knew it was going to come up here. Its fucking sick how these scientists are even credited as scientists. We believe it caused death. Believe and know are two different things. Next is this question, did they use other drugs, possibely amphetamines of cocaine often? If so cardio-vascualr problems arent exactly surprising. Maybe his weed wa slaced with some shitty synthetic cannabionoid? Those are dangerous. Next, youre telling me in 4000+ years no one died, then once society decides to outlaw this plant, shit on its name and propagandize eveyring asscoiated, suddenly, indirectly two guys die? A little bit coincidental no? Society is fucking sick. Just another indirect death where the person consumed cannabis, and its not heart failure, it marijuana toxicity! Christ sakes. let me tell you a little secret, the 400,000 annual deaths from tobacco in america are not actually because of tobacco Its the cannabis resins atoms being accidentally picked up by some unsuspecting victim after a blood thirsty, psychotic, angry, deadly, ruthless, sex predator cannabis smoker that came in before and left some poison behind. Cannabis kills 400,000 a year just like that. Really, media companies, governments and general society has fucking died. One should be ashamed to even see these people int he outside world.
  14. TreesAreNotPeople
    Well even if there was a heart condition, isn't it reasonable to say that the cannabis was at least contributing factor?

    Weed has given me painful tachycardia before, and I knew that it raised blood pressure. It certainly wouldn't shock me if those side effects could kill someone with a heart condition of some sort, or change your heart over time (however rare or minor in degree the changes are). Your heart will not know the difference between tachycardia caused by weed and tachycardia caused by anything else.

    I'm still not completely convinced that cannabis alone, without any pre-existing heart condition, could cause death by itself. But if you had a heart condition, and smoked weed, then the effects on your cardiac system resulted in your death, well, I think it makes sense to say "weed killed me".

    It's probably just extremely rare. Keep in mind for most of those thousands of years modern medicine was non-existent. In a society where smoking weed was common, if only a handful of people a year died from it then it'd be near impossible to make the connection even if they died with a joint in their hand. They'd probably assume that it was caused by something common, like a heart attack or whatever idea they had about how the body worked back then. In modern times, people who smoke weed are more likely to use other illegal drugs. I'm not saying that it's a "gateway drug", but it's true because of its legal/social status. So, given that, let's say that someone who died from side effects associated with weed had a more dangerous drug with him. It'd be assumed that the other drug was the cause, and on top of that it doesn't happen very often in the first place. This is just my personal theory; to me it's definitely plausible that no one noticed until now.

    ------

    I don't get why it matters so much anyways. Even if weed can kill you, it's apparently so uncommon that you're better off worrying about contracting the bubonic plague. I don't see how it would hurt the pro-marijuana argument in the mind of any rational person, but then again anti-weed people aren't very good about rationality. But I firmly believe that marijuana proponents have to be open to the possibility of weed causing a death in order to stay realistic. Impossible is a strong word to use and I think it makes said proponents look too extreme at this point. Nothing's wrong with saying that it's extremely unlikely for cannabis to kill you in lieu of saying that it's impossible. Of course, extremists on the other side will spout the "bUT if we every save ONE child" rhetoric in response, but what can you do.
  15. C.D.rose
    I completely agree. Technically, the pro-cannabis case shouldn't really involve any claims of harmlessness, because the point is that cannabis legalization is a better solution to limit the risks associated with it. (Of course, in the real world, the harm potential of cannabis is always part of the debate because many people don't have any idea of how legal drugs compare to it.)

    That said, I still think that this scientific publication merits scrutiny and very probably criticism. I don't think there is some sort of conspiracy going on, but I wouldn't rule out that the authors do like the attention they get. (As do undoubtedly many scientists with whom I happen to agree, so this is not a cheap shot here.)

    And that is, after all, what science is all about: judging ideas or hypotheses only by their merits. And on that note:
    I do disagree with this, because it simply doesn't work that way. If scientists cannot provide a potential hypothesis as to how acute cannabis use can increase the risk of heart failure, they just don't have a point that's worthy of being published in a scientific journal.
  16. CannabisBenzoBuddie
    The whole article can be summed up by the 1 sentence said in the article its self ...


    So.. wheres the real proof they died of cannabis ? other then being found near a bag of weed and being told by police thats how they died?

    How does it manage that the only case in the world ever reported is in a nation that has no acceptable legal use of the drug?


    and perhaps are trying to stop a global wide drug legalization movement from happening in there country? Scare tactics . . .?

    If it looks like a duck..
  17. Crystal_Queen
    No "toxicology" test.
    No blood plasma levels...

    The cannabis wasn't tested for pesticides/poison/tobacco/synthetic additives/allergens...
    No mention of strain Indica/Sativa? Or purity.
  18. TJO420
    Yea as far as I know marijuana has only killed someone because the user also has a heart problem. A buddy of mine is a medical marihuana caregiver and his wife cant smoke marihuana anymore because she found out she has extremely high blood pressure and smoking it can be highly dangerous
    Oh and that kid that got crushed buy a ton of weed. cant forget about him
  19. TreesAreNotPeople
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh, that should have been "isn't it reasonable to say that cannabis was a possible contributing factor". I agree that's it's not logical to assume that it was weed simply because no other cause of death was found. I believe that it's absolutely plausible though, and I don't agree with the typical kneejerk "weed is harmless" comments, nor the reasoning behind them: i.e. "it hasn't caused a recorded death yet, so it's not a possibility".

    You even see in this thread people wondering why blood and toxicology tests weren't performed when the article explicitly states that this was done. No one on this side of the political argument wants to believe that there's even a remote possibility of this happening, and I feel that many more will assume that this is an anti-drug conspiracy without even doing so much as reading a translation of an article about the case study thoroughly. That mentality hurts us, and it could be devastating if more compelling evidence arises in the future.

    After reading the article again the hypothesis is that heart arrhythmia can, rarely, cause death. There's evidence that weed can cause heart arrythmia. Even a small number of people within the cannabis subculture suspected that this could be dangerous before (I had a few links prepared, but this forum wouldn't allow them). Combine that with an enlarged heart or another heart problem and well... not looking so impossible now. I think the only problem is that the hypothesis would be hard to test due to the rarity of this event, but the paper is a case study, not an experiment.

    I haven't read the case study, but I didn't see them blaming acute cannabis use in the article. They admitted that "how often and which amounts of cannabis" was not known. The rest I covered above.
  20. alienhunter
    I always new weed could kill but when mixed with other downers wow this is craz to me , the weed could have possibly been laced with a rc that cant be detected
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