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  1. Mick Mouse
    Death. Even reading it or saying it to yourself can be kind of scary for some. Just the thought of it makes the mind want to immediately veer off into another direction for others. off onto another path-any path! Just as long as it's not that one. But death is a part of life, and everyone must experience it before they move on to whatever there is next. And it is not just people, but all life must eventually come to an end. And as far as I know, there is no way to get around this. For now, it is an inescapable fact. Note that I say "For now", because I believe that we will have in the near future the potential to change that to a certain extent. While we cannot defeat death completely, I think we will certainly be able to kick him in the balls and get him to back up out of our face for a while longer than our current "allotted span".

    Scientifically, or logically, death is a very easily understood process. You start. You work. You stop. The reasons behind the stoppage are many and wide-spread, and can range from something as complicated as genetics to something as simple plain bad luck on a Saturday night. The living part can range from a few seconds to over one hundred years. The working part has so many different variables that there is no sense in even looking at that aspect of the process! Everything lives, therefore everything dies. No exceptions, no exemptions. The only variable we concern ourselves with is the length of time that the "you work" portion of the process takes. It doesn't sound quite so bad when you keep it in a scientific setting. It's.....clinical that way. Not personal.

    Personally, death is an entirely different ball of wax! First of all, you have the relationship aspect. At what level was the relationship between the deceased and yourself at? Were they total strangers? An acquaintance or someone you may work or otherwise interact with in a casual or infrequent manner? A friend? Now-a close friend or one that is not so close, but more than just an acquaintance? Male or female? Sexual? Familial? Many different variables, just at the first layer!

    Then, you have the manner of death. Was it natural causes or caused by someone else? Or perhaps caused by the friend themselves, although I would hope not. Those are always really messy! Was it an expected death or did it come suddenly, with no warning or signs and symptoms? Was it long and protracted or sudden, pain-free or pain-filled? Accidental or deliberate? Alone or in the company of friends and family? Or, as recent events have so clearly shown us are possible, at the hands of an enemy?

    Then you have your personal attitude towards death. Are you afraid of it? Or uncertain, insecure, unknowledgeable, or just plain fucking terrified? Or, are you perhaps one of those odd ducks who see death as an adventure, a doorway into another realm or plane, or not as an ending but rather, a beginning. Or perhaps I should say a new beginning or even another beginning? Scientific or spiritual? Empirical evidence or faith? Or, in all likelihood, some odd mixture or blend of the two. That seems to be how most humans deal with the issue. The range of this mixture or blend of beliefs is truly astounding as well, from a simple cessation of existence and nothingness to elaborate ritual and ceremony celebrating not only death, but the entire process surrounding the event-social, political, financial, and of course the biggie.....religious.

    However, there seem to be a very few fairly well-defined categories that the vast majority of humans fall into. You have those who are terrified and run away screaming from the very idea of death. They refuse to accept it until they are confronted with no other option, and then they usually disintegrate. As soon as the subject comes up in a conversation or similar social setting, they bury their heads in the sand and engage in denial in some form or fashion. They go through their life and death is quite literally the last thing on their minds. Then you have those who view death logically or scientifically and see it as merely the end of a process in which the next step is still unknown. These individuals are not necessarily not religious or spiritual, in fact many of them are men of firm faith in a spiritual path. No, these people have stripped away the mystical portion of the process and instead see it as the ending of a biological process and not much more. While they may not deny the spiritual or mystical component, they move it into its own category or place and deal with it separately.

    You have those who attach the spiritual or religious component to the process of death. This-in and of itself and if there were no other reasons at all-shows the importance we place on this process we call death. We are so curious, so driven to seek out answers, so.....insatiable in our need to understand, to know, that we have, over the history of our race, developed this.......this thing called religion. I literally cannot find the words to describe my thought right now! We cannot, we will not believe that death is the end! This is practically encoded into our DNA, the desire to believe that the end is not....The End. That there is something else, something more after we have drawn our last breath.

    From the very beginnings of our race until today, there have been a wide variety of rituals and ceremonies surrounding the process of death. From giving away all of the possessions of the deceased to burying it all with them. From elaborate tombs that took decades to build to a hole dug in the dirt. From extensive preparations to the body of the dead to exposure to the elements. Or fire. Did the dead person die bravely or in a way so as to bring honor to himself, his family, or his State? Was it because of illness or injury? In most religious belief systems, the manner of ones death is quite important, with some even going so far as to say that your "reward" is determined by the manner in which you died! For instance, in some of the Northern Pagan and Heathen belief systems, your status in the after-world was determined by the size of your "honor guard"-which was the number of men you killed while alive. In some Paths, you get greater attention if you die in some spectacular fashion while engaged in promoting your beliefs, while in others, the reward goes to the one who ate the most shit while they were alive. There are just as many ways of dealing with the concept of death as there are people dealing with it! What I mean by this is that everyone has their own belief and no two beliefs are exactly the same.

    There are a few things about humans that you can always be certain of. The male of the species will invariably think with his dick instead of his brain. The female of the species will relentlessly point out the males faults-either real or perceived. The male of the species will find some way, any way, to manufacture alcohol or other intoxicants after a few days of listening to that shit.

    These are the basic, bed-rock things, but there are others as well, things that you could actually say define us as a species. The fact that we are insatiably curious, and even death itself will not stop us in our quest for knowledge and answers. The fact that our brains recognize things that other mammals on the planet don't, or at least recognize them better than others. Things like patterns. Things like ourselves in shiny surfaces! Things like objects which can be re-tasked into tools and implements to make our lives easier and safer. The fact that our lives are defined by thought, rather than instinct. The fact that once we have set our mind on a goal, we usually carry it through regardless of the difficulties along the way, sometimes simply for no other reason than because we can. The belief that we are not alone, that there is someone or something else out there, and that that entity may or may not be responsible for all of this shit, and they may or may not give a fuck about what happened after they started they process or where it might all end up.

    One of the other things that you can count on humans for is the fact that if we don't know something, we will damn sure make some shit up until a better answer comes along! We will make shit up that don't even sound close to the facts! Things like the world being flat, when any mariner could tell you otherwise. Things like man evolved from monkey or lower life form/man was intelligently designed. Crazy shit, like the God/Goddess is pissed and we need to....oh, I don't know, dum de dum de dum, THAT GUY! GRAB HIM AND TOSS HIS ASS IN THE VOLCANO! Or my favorite, "Ya'll done made Jaysas so durn mad! In order to save your souls from FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, ya'll need to send me a "love offerin' and I'll pray that durned Devil right outta ya!" Unexplainable stuff, like the fact that there are 27 different universes and Silly String exists in all of them or that energy cannot be created or destroyed, you can only change its form.

    But when we are talking about death, I guess we pretty much have to talk about the process that goes along with it. After all, I think that is how we define death these days-how good the process that accompanied it was. Was it a "good" death, a "useless" or "tragic" or "un/avoidable" death? How we "fight" death, or how we succumbed to death after a long fight. As I said, everyone has their own opinions about death. Mine, while certainly not on either end of the spectrum, is nonetheless a bit odd or unusual seeming to some.

    I simply do not care all that much about death. I have never feared my own personal death, at least not since I was young. The military has a way of convincing young men that they are at once immortal and invincible, and once you are experienced enough to realize that false sense of security for what it is, you are experienced enough in the ways of death to not fear for your personal safety in normal everyday situations or conditions. As you get older, you learn to do things that help increase your odds of avoiding death-simple, common-sense things like wearing seat belts when you are in a car or not driving under the influence, avoiding areas of the city in which your particular race or heritage is not necessarily predominant in or carrying a pistol when you do go to visit, eating right and getting a bit if exercise, avoiding excess in most things, and so on.

    As far as the deaths of others, well, those feelings are a little harder to pin down. Acquaintances and even friends? I would/will/have some momentary feelings of loss of companionship and the sadness which comes along with that, but that is about all. Family? Depending on the relationship, but in general and oddly enough, just about the same.

    But what about close family, such as Mum and Dad? Or immediate family, like the kids or the wife? Obviously, that will be a traumatic event and one that I am not looking forward to engaging in. That's right, where's the sand so I can bury my head in it? I'm going for a riverboat ride on de'nial. But just as obviously, it will also depend on many of the things we have discussed earlier.

    For instance, Mum and Dad are both elderly, so those deaths are to be expected. They have prepared for the eventual end, and barring unfortunate circumstance, they know reasonably well how things are going to go. Of course, there is always the chance that they will die from causes other than natural as well. They could be involved in an auto accident or some sort of severe personal injury, like falling down and can't get up! They could be robbed or mugged, or fall victim to some sort of virus or disease. But in all likelihood, they will go out just about the way they figured, of old age.

    The wife and kids are, of course, a situation all of its own. It stands to reason that, at this particular stage of our lives, dying from old age or natural causes is far enough away so as to not be a factor in this part of the discussion. That leaves accident, illness, or the actions of another. Regardless of the method by which death occurred, the resulting aftermath will be terrible. If it is as a result of some sort of accident or wreck and my wife and/or kids were to be killed, it would be best if the person who was responsible perished as well. Along with any others who might bear some shred of responsibility, as I will not differentiate between accomplices and primary figures when it comes to vengeance. With illness, it is kind of different I guess. I mean, you get sick, you see a doctor and they treat you. It could be cancer or some kind of fatal disease like AIDS or Ebola, and there is not much you can do. I suppose you could threaten the doctor, like they do in some third-world country, but it doesn't help. You are, in the end, kind of helpless, because you cannot fight this battle for someone. All you can do is be there by their side.

    The actions of another. I think that, as parents, this is our greatest fear-that our child or children will be injured or killed at the hands of another, and we will not be able to prevent it. Whether it comes at the hands of frat brothers as part of a hazing ritual gone wrong, because of bullying or racial/sexual reasons, or at their own hand because of emotional or self-esteem issues. Because of a criminal act. Because they trusted their "friends" or got talked into doing something stupid. In a situation like this, I truly hope and pray that the individual is found by the authorities before I find them. That way they will have the opportunity to live a bit longer! If such a tragic event were to happen and the individuals involved were to be found by me, they would scream for a long, long time before I would let them go.

    I do not look forward to the day when I have to face the fact that my wife has died, for whatever reason. I suspect that, regardless of my opinions and feelings towards death, that event will be the one that will break me. I am already on shaky ground at the best of times, and have been for many years, courtesy of the US military and the shit I done while there. I often make the comparison to that of a lock on a door-there is a bloodthirsty, unfeeling, heartless monster out there, and somehow, it managed to allow itself to be confined behind this door and locked away, because even though it is a monster, it recognizes the fact, just as it recognizes the fact that while it can never be "normal", it can feel love and even return it to the right person. The person who closed the door-from the inside. Should that person die, should that lock be "broken" and that door allowed to swing wide and the monster escape, it would be a bad thing. Especially when that monster realized once and for all that the only one who ever showed it love is now gone.

    I would burn the world, that the smoke of its pyre would carry her to the Summerlands. I would give her an honor guard unmatched in the annals and history of Hell. I would storm the very Throne itself and demand to know.....why? Take me, and leave her. Or better yet, take everyone else and leave us! But take her and leave me at your own risk, as I will not be sane or balanced in my responses.

    But these are things which will never happen, phantasmagorical events in the mind of a man already, for all practical purposes, broken beyond repair, made-up metaphor and allegory.

    No, what I really want to understand is the feelings that happen when other people die. Why do I not feel sad at the causal event, which is the death, but why I feel sad at how it makes other people feel.

    For instance, I have recently had a large number of deaths in my family. Altogether a total of five, and all from my mothers side of the family. Now, the first one was my aunt. Actually a great-aunt or something like that. My grandmothers last remaining sister. Anyway, she was a close family member. I grew up with my cousins and spent a lot of time at their home. My aunt was old, in ill health, and mentally ill, and her death was somewhat expected, in that we knew it would be a matter of time. When she died, it did not affect me at all, but it did, of course, affect my mother. After that, it was my grandma. Again, she was 93, in end-stage alzheimers, diabetic, and in poor health. Another expected death, although with this one, we knew several weeks in advance that it was about to happen. While her death was a blessing, it was also hard. Not on me, but on my mother. Now, don't get me wrong, I loved my grandma with all of my heart! but she was not "grandma" anymore, and hadn't been for quite some time. She was a stranger, and so her death did not affect me. Within a week or two of my grandma's death, my mother got word that her favorite cousin had died, which was followed less than 48 hours later by word that another nephew was in the hospital and not expected to make it (he didn't).

    Each of these deaths did not affect me personally, but they were blows to my mother, and that did affect me quite a bit.

    Yesterday I got a call from my mother to tell me that they had just found her brother-my uncle-dead in his home. This was the one that broke her. Her mother has not been in the ground for but a couple of weeks, and now her brother dies. This one was sudden and unexpected too, nobody saw it coming at all. She was hysterical and could barely speak, shrieking and screaming her despair, frustration, and disbelief, until I had to call someone from her church on another line to go over and get her. They said that she just collapsed when they got there.

    Now, my uncle and I are not close, and we haven't been in decades. His death does not affect me personally. However, What my mother is experiencing affects me greatly! I feel frustration and anger because she is hurt and I would do anything to make her pain go away. I suspect that she will not get over this one easily, if at all. Currently, I have arranged for her to be taken to my uncles family for the funeral and all of the ritual the follows death, and I have people from her church to watch over her as closely as may be necessary.

    This is very odd to me. I am not an emotional person on my best day, but I am very sad because my mother is sad. Not because a relative has died! I think I am just an emotional neuter, because this should not be right.

    Any insights, advice, suggestions, comments, or other?

Comments

  1. Hellestopholes
    Thanks for that insightful piece, Man. Reading that's like looking into a mirror..
    How bereavement effects others in grief is the only part about mortality that ever effected me, too. Its a viewpoint every bit as valid as the rest. of 'em.
    You have compassion and make an effort to relieve suffering of others. That is where it lies. And I stake my life on it.

    I have far too much more to say about why I'm so sure about that.
    If you want to hear my post-Faustian ramblings PM me. If you dont that is a- OK!

    Good work climbing out of the dark!
    :thumbsup:

    H
  2. Mick Mouse
    Well, since I originally wrote this piece, my mother-in-law contracted cancer and died and my dad has had multiple heart attacks-two stents, one to fix a 98% blockage and one to fix an 82% blockage, and the dye they used has almost caused complete kidney shut-down. He is still alive, but for how long is up in the air right now.

    Both people are very important to me. But I could find no sorrow, no "pain" at their passing or near passing. They came, they were, they leave. I more than fully understand the process of death, as well as the many ways in which it can occur. I understand that, when this process occurs to someone who is important in your life, it is supposed to negatively affect you.....grief, sorrow, pain, a sense of loss-some kind of negative emotional state.

    And yet, it doesn't. I feel......nothing. Not even numb, just.....not affected. Completely detached from the fact that two people who are quite important to me are gone or going away, and I will never see them again. Now, my first thought is sociopathy, which is probably more than just a little correct. But I can feel emotion, I love my wife and kids beyond all reason, I love The Dog and The Noisy Little Birds. Hell, I even love The Rotten Little Kitten, although he is a 12 pound tomcat now.

    But everyone else? Well, a couple of decades ago, the honest answer would have been that people are just different shaped objects to move around as I saw fit, in order to achieve my goals, wants, and or needs. But, several things have happened. First, and as I alluded to earlier, I found someone who recognized the potential AND refused to give up. Then we had kids, and kids change things. Suddenly, I have people to protect and care for, and I was unable to look at my weeks-old daughter and NOT see care or concern reflected back from her eyes. I saw a person looking back at me, and not an object.

    The journey has been long, and is far from over. I have to consciously exercise caution to avoid falling into the traps of manipulation again. But, while I now recognize people as people-with their own hopes, dreams agendas, etc.-rather than as objects to be used and discarded once that usefulness has passed, I still have to be very careful in how I act toward others because it was automatic for so long that it had become an ingrained habit.

    What the HELL does this have to do with the topic of the thread? Well, I'm actually getting to that! I find that I have developed a pack mentality in my relationships. Those who are members of my "pack", those who were members, but have left to start their own packs, the results, if any, from those new packs, and everyone else. Pack is to be protected, cared for, and loved at any cost, even life itself if necessary. Former pack are those who are known and trusted-cared about, but not to the level of current pack. And whose absence would certainly be noticed, but not with emotion. Children of former pack have the same status as current pack, although at the bottom of that ladder.

    Everyone else is, well.....everyone else.

    So, I would cheerfully kill or die for my wife and daughters, as well as my grandkids and those who I have claimed as friends. Gladly will I place myself between them and all harm. My older daughter and my son have their own packs now, so while I will advise or help if directly asked, they catch their own food now. Unless they choose to return to my pack or their lives are in immediate danger, at which full pack status is restored, but in general, you are expected to claim your own territory and start your own pack when it is time to go.

    Everyone else I leave alone, as long as they leave me alone. I am (reasonably) civil. Well, most of the time, anyway! If you request help from me, I will usually give it with no strings attached. I will not use or manipulate others for personal gain, to prove a point, or "just because I can". I actively try to form positive relationships with others, although that is still very much a work in progress.

    So maybe this is why death does not affect me as it does others, and why strong emotions (or any emotions, for that matter) seem to be missing. Any one or thing who is not pack is real, but not "real". Still markers, but not in my game any more. Real, but not as real. Maybe this is why the thought of the death of my father does not affect me at all, while the death of my wife or youngest daughters is the most fearful thing I can conceive of.

    Young, innocent, or mine, I give everything I have. Until I have reached and then gone beyond my limits and resources, as well as the limits and resources of anything or anyone I can gather.

    And from whence do these paradoxical, philosophical ideas spring forth? What warped set of circumstances drove me to ramble on about my personal views or how I am making progress in NOT being such a monster, while subtly leaving my options open for monstrous behaviour, should I later chose such a path?

    What the FUCK am I talking about?

    I lost a kitten today. Now, I am a big slobbery dog person, and I don't really like cats much, but I tolerate the two in my house because they are my kids pets. I take care of them, feed them, take them to the doctor, and do everything a responsible pet owner is supposed to do, but they are not mine. I told both my girls "no damn cats, we have three dogs and two birds already", so we have two cats now. Teen-aged girls, kittens, go figure! One of which just had kittens 9 or 10 weeks ago. 5 kittens, 1 died at birth and one was a runt, with the other three being normal. Well, as normal as a cat can be, anyway.

    Anyway, no big deal, right? They are just fucking cats! I bury the dead one in the back yard, sympathize with my girls, and move on.

    Then the runt gets sick. He has a weakened immune system anyway because he is a runt, and now he has an upper respiratory infection, so his eyes get gummed shut, he can't smell (so he doesn't eat right), and he shits all over the place. Plus, he has this crazy whine that sounds like he has to painfully force it out. Well, I was taking momma in to get fixed, so I tossed him in as well and let the docs look him over.

    oral antibiotics, eye drop antibiotics, keep him as shit-free as possible, eyes wiped, and make sure he eats. 25.00 on an animal I am not keeping. Wonderful! And a cat, at that!

    10 days later, his appetite is much better, he is becoming more social with his siblings and the other animals in the house, and his eyes are better, but not clear. So I take him back in, just to make sure that, if he DOES have something weird, it is not catching for the other animals. Finish the remaining antibiotics, another bottle of eye drops, and now he has a rash on his belly. I point this out, thinking maybe an allergic reaction to the meds or something, and the vet says no, but that she has also never seen anything like this before, and she will have to research it.

    great-a cat who is sick AND has an unknown disease! In addition to the new drops, the cat is treated for mites and de-wormed, as a preventative. Another 40.00, so now I am into this cat for around 70.00 so far. Wait 10 days and bring it back in.

    10 days, eyes are a little better but rash is MUCH worse. I drive the stupid cat all the way back, where the vet tells me that she still cannot find out what it might be, and I might need to take it to a "cat dermatologist". For about 150.00. Are you fucking kidding me?

    By now, this cat is about 9 or 10 weeks old, and I'm its momma. if I sit down, he is trying to climb into my lap, then up on my right shoulder, where he will sit and ride for hours, wherever I might go. I have gone to the bank, the grocery store, and the hardware store with this little kitten sitting on my shoulder like a parrot and a pirate! We go for rides in the car and walks around the block like this. He wakes up and runs to me, begging to be picked up and cared for.....no one else, just me. he will run right by every other breathing member of this pack and straight to me. Ready for his breakfast, his milk, and his person to pick him up. I will put him in with his siblings and momma cat at night, and he will be curled up next to me the very first time I wake up, where he stays until I get up for good When I am up and doing things, he sits under the refrigerator where the warm air blows on him until I sit down and he can get in his usual spot.

    Yesterday evening, he starts acting different, so I tell the girls to keep an eye on him until I can get ahold of the doctor. This morning, he is almost dead. My regular vet was not open, so I called the emergency vet hospital and got him in within minutes, but pretty sure he was dead when we arrived. The doc checked him and said that he was still breathing, but his heart had stopped-he was dead, but his body didn't know it yet. Then she rolled him over and found a heartbeat after all, so she rushed him back to some other vets there. She came back and told me that, while he was still "alive", it would be kindest to put him down.....his immune system was weak to begin with because of being a runt, and the respiratory infection and GI issues plus the rash was too much for his system to handle.

    Its just a cat, right? No big deal.

    A little fluffy, blue-eyed, flat-faced retarded cat that I didn't want to begin with. A baby who depended on me for protection and care and comfort, and that I couldn't save. A baby who lived for my touch and died in my hands, and broke my heart. He was pack, and I failed him.

    Why is it that the death of a fucking cat almost breaks me emotionally, while the death of a person leaves me unaffected?
  3. Stell22
    The cat story broke my heart...i am in tears they roll down my face and onto my laptop
    I know its long ago and I know you did the best for him he loved you so and you loved him back...he may have been just a cat but he was and is love.
  4. detoxin momma
    damn O, that is alot of death at once, sorry to hear that ((:)vibes:))) hugs

    my views on death have changed drastically the last year. i used to consider myself an atheist, i used to believe we are born, we live, we die, the end.
    but that way of believing left me with grief and anxiety and fear. also a little resentment, like our whole lives are just in vain then. i believed anything was possible though, i was never completely sure about any of my beliefs.

    after having a certain episode last year, im not even sure what to call the experience really, so i just say a "bad trip"
    but it really wasnt that bad overall because it came with several positves to, i changed my mind completely.

    ive always been a 'show me' type of person, i need proof, physical proof.
    again, this left me with anxiety and fear over death, and i dont believe anymore that people should believe in anything that brings them any feelings but positive ones.
    if your beliefs bring on scared emotions, i think you should reevaluate your beliefs.

    anyways, when i was hallucinating one night, i think i may have literally been dying from serotonin poisoning, i really do,
    i went to turn over in my bed, and i saw jesus. i was literally laying there with my heart about to burst out of my chest, begging to myself, please dont die, my babies need me, when i saw Him.
    there is no changing my mind about this, i can not shake this off.

    ever seen that movie Heaven is for Real?? it was just like the kid says in that movie, He didnt look like your typical Jesus picture, he was younger, less hair on his head and face, and he was glowing in a golden light radiating warmth. an undeniable type of warmth, an entire body feeling.no words can describe it. and i never even knew if i was sure i believed in jesus!

    well, once you see it, theres no denying it,you will change your mind if you are a nonbeliever.

    sure i still have questions pop up, what about this and that, we KNOW this and that, etc etc. the answer to these questions are "it doesnt matter"..
    thats why they say knowledge is the devil, because we arent supposed to question, we arent supposed to doubt God.
    Thats why death is scarey for a nonbeliever, too many questions, too much doubt.

    now, i dont fear death at all. i fully believe this here and now is temporary, a test if you will, a how will you handle life, because it greatly determines your after life.

    sure im scared to have kids that will miss me,scared to leave loved ones behind, but their time will come to.

    i dont believe that theres an actual physical realm called Heaven and Hell, i believe they're both here, on Earth, and its us that will change, or go, to another realm when we leave our physical bodies. maybe you'll be able to float from a cloud to a bird, or a fish, or a human being even. regardless i believe rather you "go" to heaven or hell will all be in how your soul feels when you pass away.
    i also believe that each and every person will be faced with Jesus as they take their last breaths, and when he asks you if you believe, you better say yes!
    when you see Him, it will be the only answer, it wont matter what you've said or done in your life, He will know your hearts truest desires, your intentions, your true character.....even if you claim not to believe, He will know bullshit when he sees it :)

    i look forward to an afterlife, one with no pains,no stresses,no addictions,fears,etc etc...and even if the whole phenomenon of "going to heaven" is a hoax, it sure feels better to believe in the possibility, and if believing in this can take fear of death away, then why not believe!? thats how i see it now.
  5. VancityA4
    I see where you are coming from O.

    Personally I feel religion is for the weak minded individual who refuses to accept that they only get one shot at life. It gives me no slolice to believe in false gods or an afterlife where if I believe in God and repent my sins all will be forgiven. That's such a pile of crap in my opinion it's not even funny. It's no different than the souicide bombers who think they get 21 virgins for killing innocent people. Religion is a sham to give people hope when there is none. Hope of living forever, hope of not facing any real end, hope of always having your loved ones at your side for eternity. I myself accept the fact that one day, I will die. My body will give birth to new life in the form of fertilizer and some part of me will live on in our planet for eternity, in one form or another. Maybe I'll go from fertilizer, to pollen on a flower, and a leaf on a tree, then as pollen become Honey, and from honey, I would nourish a new life to a bee, and as a bee gets eaten by a bird, I would become that birds energy to flap his wings or to keep him/her from freezing, or possibly to make an egg. The possibilities after death are endless for us all. But for this "Life" you only get one chance. One shot to be remembered or forgotten, loved or hated, to cherished and be cherished by others and to care. We all walk blindly into the dark, it's a path unknown for us all. I just think if everyone could accept their own fate it would make the world a much better place.

    Unfortunately most people aren't intelligent enough to be self aware so they stick their heads in the sand and refuse to accept this is their shot and they fucked up. Who cares!! Learn from it, grow and move on, and make yourself a better person. No one is going to save you, except you.

    Just my two cents.
  6. detoxin momma
    after reading this above post VancityA, what comes to mind is, my heart goes out to you.i used to think religion was a cop out to, i used to think believing in God made me a conformist, not anymore.Like my husband used to tell me,not believing really is your own loss, i get that now.

    religion is not for the unintelligent at all, sorry you feel that way, it really is sad.some of the most intelligent people in the world have a very strong sense of faith. religion is there for each and every individual to use as they see fit.:)

    this is such an incredibly wild unexplainable magnificent world we live in, i'd be a fool to believe i have any control over what happens when i pass away.

    i do agree with you Vancity when you say only you can save yourself though.
    personally there are no words i can use to express how grateful i am i didnt live my entire life as an atheist, i felt kinda bitter towards life to on that side.
    to each their own,really is true....

    but O, i feel you. i havent lost any people yet in my life that really choked me up. like you said, grandparents get old, they're gonna die, thats life.never lost a sibling or child,parent even yet, i'd probably feel different if i had.

    i have had 2 animals pass that broke my heart though:cry:
    it does feel kinda odd to get so sad over an animal, but, we love who/what we love right...
  7. Mick Mouse
    well, to both of the last two posters, I think you are confusing religion and faith. I am not a christian, I have studied that belief system and found it riddled with holes, misleading, and in general, fit only for those who seek dominion over others. Of course, that also describes all of the monotheistic belief systems, such as Christianity, Judiasm, and Islam. Not to cast ANY aspersions against them! There are literally billions of people for whom these belief systems have great meaning, and if it works for them, then it works! But it does not work for me, and I do not follow your Christ.

    But I have a deep and unabiding faith. There actually ARE other ways to believe in the Creator that have worked perfectly well for thousands and thousands of years! After all, the current religion draws its demons directly from the gods of those which came before.....in fact, that is common among ALL religions, all the way back to the dawn of man.

    I am a proud pagan, because of the fact that I have faith in my Creator. Calling it God, Goddess, Jesus, or Allah means nothing. those are just names and not truly indicative of the Truth. So lets keep in mind that people of faith come in many shapes and sizes, and faith is not confined to any one particular deity.

    But all of that being said, what REALLY pisses me off is death, particularly the death of those I love and care for. I rage against death, even as I know deep inside that the eternal night is not eternal. I was, and am, furious with my Goddess, because She took one who I loved from me. Even as I understand that death is a necessary and vital part of life, and that the cycle cannot stop because of me or my desire.

    I am.....selfish. And I long for the day when I will see all of my friends and companions again. But until that happens, I will do everything in my power to kick that old, hooded, bony bastard Death in the fucking teeth every goddamn chance I get!

    Take my fucking dog, you son of a bitch! I'll take your fucking JOB, if I get half a chance!
  8. beentheredonethatagain
    This is a super good read, and well written, although I didn't read it all, but I have a feeling I will be . interesting and full of thought provoking views..
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