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  1. Balzafire
    The American inventor of synthetic cannabis warns users to stop immediately or risk serious psychological problems.

    "Do not use these products," said Emeritus Professor John Huffman, of South Carolina.

    As an organic chemist at Clemson University, Professor Huffman developed the appetite stimulant JWH 018 - a chemical mimicking the effect of THC, the active ingredient in cannabis.

    He said he was "not the least bit surprised" that the compound had been adapted to make cannabinoids, such as Kronic, which was widely available throughout New Zealand and Australia.

    Asked for his advice to anyone smoking the product, Professor Huffman was unequivocal - "Stop".

    "It can lead to serious psychological problems... It's not known if they are irreversible."

    Imitation-cannabis products, largely manufactured in China, were marketed in the US as Spice or K2, and producers "wouldn't listen as long as they are making money", he said.

    However, Professor Huffman stopped short of recommending NZ ban or even reclassify the product.

    "It's probably useless. Marijuana has been illegal in the United States since 1937."

    One person supporting a ban is Dr Leo Schep, a toxicologist with the Dunedin-based National Poisons Centre, who said people should take heed of Professor Huffman's warnings over the effects of synthetic cannabis.

    "He would know this product better than anyone else in the world.

    "If he said don't use it, I would respect that opinion."

    Cannabis substitutes were probably created by chemicals such as JWH 018 and "spraying willy nilly".

    Dr Schep said the poisons centre was the "ambulance at the bottom of the cliff". It had recorded a spike of 10 calls a month relating to cannabis substitutes, and expected that to rise to 20 this month.

    "It is the tip of the iceberg. If we have a jump... that is a good indication something is out there.

    Dr Schep has talked to staff at Dunedin Hospital emergency department concerning cannabinoids, including background information and symptoms. Cannabinoids were banned in Western Australia this month.

    ED clinical leader Dr Tim Kerruish has said health issues include anxiety, increased heart rates and blood pressure and in one case seizures.

    Associate Health Minister Peter Dunne says that restrictions on cannabinoid products such as Kronic could be expected within a week when Parliament passes amendments to the Misuse of Drugs Act 2005.


    By Hamish McNeilly
    Jun 27, 2011
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/health/news/article.cfm?c_id=204&objectid=10734721

Comments

  1. The Network
    Guys! Stop shrinking your cancerous tumors, I mean really, just stop it got old like last year!
  2. Micklemouse
    TheNetwork! Stop with the snippy one-liners, I mean really, just stop it got old like 2 posts ago
  3. trdofbeingtrd
    This is what I don't get, so if someone can help me out I would greatly appreciate it.

    I get that the fake coke, ecstasy, and marijuana are/were legal to buy. The problem I have is why would people fake the health risks and now criminal issues to get "high" off of these literally designer drugs when they can just get the real stuff and not chance such health problems?

    I see the health issues about these fake drugs, I see the prices they cost, and I see how much trouble that banned substances can give. If this stuff did not cause people to OD (overdose left and right), if this stuff was KNOWN and WELL studied like the "real deal", and if this stuff was priced as low as the "real deal" then I could understand it. As of right now, if I wanted to get a "high" like cocaine, ecstasy, and or marijuana, I would go for the real deal. I know how much I can and cannot take safely, I know what the substances will do to me both mentally and physically, and I know how much will get me how big of a ticket or how long in the county jail if I am caught.

    Is it just one of those "don't knock it till you try it" types of things?

    Regarding this article specifically, I agree 100%. If the CREATOR of a substance says "don't do it", yeah, call me crazy, but I am not going to do it. I think the one of the worst parts about this is that the people who are overdosing are teenagers. It is like they are getting high off of these substances like teenagers in my time got high off of air fresheners. It's a quick high that is (one of the most scariest things ever) a trend, a fad, the hip thing to do. "If all of your friends jumped off of a cliff would you?".....................of course they would, if not, they ain't cool.
  4. Balzafire
    I think the biggest reason a lot of people experiment with these substances and the reason they are so popular, is because they don't show up on standard drug tests. At least, I know that was a big selling point in the beginning, anyway. That's what the government gets for trying to stop its society from using mind altering substances. It ain't gonna happen.
  5. Alfa
    Its obvious that many people prefer legal drugs over illegal drugs. For reasons of drug testing and no risk of prosecution, but also because people prefer buying from a store instead of a drug dealer. Some people consider the category of research chemicals as a delicacy menu to pick their personal preference. There are so many research chemicals to choose from. And todays world is a consumer oriented world where the consumer wants to choose the product that suits him or her. There may be an aspect of following trends as well. Mind that todays legal high may be gone tomorrow.
    And its not like cannabis is without health risks with glass and lead pollution these days. With police hitting the illegal market hard, the absence of supply is filled by legal alternatives.
    Also mind that many illegal drugs were once research chemicals.

    Many millions have used cannabinoids over the last 7 years. Mostly JWH-018 and CP47.497. An ADME toxicology study about JWH-018 is available here. While vendors sold doses in the hundreds of millions, not 1 person has died from these substances. I dont think the aforementioned cannabinoids pose a major risk. New cannabinoids have sufaced recently and its hard to say much about that.
    Its logical that the academic John W Huffman doesnt want this trend to go on much further. As the inventor of the JWH-X cannabinoids, he is becoming the unwanted father of spice. The Shulgin of cannabinoids. I much doubt he favors this position. Spice is a hot potato in this respect.
  6. Ellisdeee
    Honestly when I saw this article suggesting words from the horses mouth, so to speak, that he would say some substantial stuff about these mimics. All I seem to get though was -

    So are these things bad?
    J.H. - Yeah, everyone should stop.
    Why are they bad?
    J.H. - They can cause serious psychological problems, not listing any, but they might be irreversible.
    Supporter - Well, he made these and he knows better than me, and he said so that it was bad. So I think you should believe him.

    Among the actual acute problems they suggested it can develop in people are contrary to what J.H. said because Anxiety (50/50 on this one, sometimes its mental and sometimes its quite physical, just speaking IME) and increased heart rate/blood pressure are not heavy and strictly "psychological" problems. Also not sure what kind of effect or shock reaction they wanted with "spraying willy nilly", whether you do it willy-nilly style or slowly but surely you come up with the same result really, sounds like another tactic to try to make people feel like they're consuming a bunk toxic drug.

    I'm not touting or standing in the boat of me believing it is 100% safe and consequent free but considering everytime the man who created it speaks it's nothing but empty threats backed up by nothing more than "well I made this and I'm telling you guys it's bad...really its bad... believe me, who else would you believe?", the tone I always receive.

    They also throw hospitalizations in there sort of out of context. They make it sound like people are needing hospital treatment as a result of these things. That is a bit skewed imo, and not quite the same as, "person was panicing and in a racing mind state called 911". Most of these people go to the hospital, they tell them after taking vitals they have increased heart rate and blood pressure, the drug wears off, they are fine and go home and don't find reason to return to the hospital for lingering post treatment. This is not to say this is everyones experience, and I know from reading here there are people who have had increased anxiety and possibly new-found symptoms they don't enjoy after using these blends so no disrespect to people who have found themselves left with consequences from synthetic cannabinoid use but, it is a little disappointing when the creator who wants people to listen to him is giving nothing substantial and it just sounds like his personal speculative opinions. If he felt so strong about this and had good reason, one would think he would expand on what he was saying to provide legitimacy to his statements beyond, "I'm telling ya guys, gotta trust me".

    I can say that I believe they have strong potential to cause increased anxiety reactions to trigger when it is not wanted. But it is just that...a belief, so I am not gung-ho about it nor do I insist people heed my word. He seems to do that though. It would be nice to have more new and solid information about these. I am sure there is some out there or stuff worth referencing (I just read Alfa's post above me) but, it still seems to be in the stage of 'this happened to johnny, and this happened to susy, and this happened to mary".

    Just my perception of the article ^.^
  7. CoolMommaDucky
    Dixie, my ducky friend, feels it is very important to share her experience:

    When these synthetic canibnoids showed up at my local tobacco store, I was skeptical. I have enjoyed smoking marijauna for 20 years on and off, known many other smokers, and believe it is relatively harmless. I doubted these herbs would have much, if any, effect, but decided to try it on a whim.
    Needless to say, I was surprised. It was quite potent and a feeling similar to maraijana.
    I thought it was GREAT! No more worring about failing a drug test . This was especially important to my mate, who is on probation.
    He was a recovering alcoholic, who was doing really good about abstaning from alcohol. He had been a regular marijuana smoker most of his life, but never had a problem setting it down.
    I soon learned that these synthetic canibinoids aren't the safe, legal answer for marijuana smokers, that I had hoped for.
    He soon began behaving strangely. He had always been one who never got paranoid on marijuana, or had ever had problems with aniexty. Now he seemed anixous all the time.
    He had never had a problem sleeping, would be snoring by the time his head hit the pillow, now he couldn't sleep, and would find himself suddenly wide awake several times a night.
    I have a genetic nuerological disorder, and felt the synthetic canibinoids, either agravated or didn't help like true marijuana did. So, I chose to go back to the natural form and didn't want anymore of the synthetic. He continued using the synthetic even when we had marijuana. Since the smell is different and distinctive I knew he was smoking larger amounts, and trying to hide it.
    Then I went to the grocery store and was told there was almost no money in MY account. Now this wasMY account only for food and bills, he already had blew all his 2 week check and over $300 in less than a week.
    We argued, he PUNCHED me and gave me a bloody nose.
    Now we had been together over 5 years, HE HAD NEVER HIT ME.
    We have seperated,
    since then I also found out that he stole an elderly neighbors electric bill money out of the sealed envelope I gave to him to drop off. (he did eventually pay it)
    He has been staying with some friends who smoke marijuana several times a day with him, he says he is having withdrawls and as soon as he got some money he still got his synthetic blend.

    I do believe Marijuana should be legal,
    BUT THIS SYNETHTIC IS DANGEROUS!!!!!

    Please Be Safe,
    Mommaduck
  8. Humanity
    It only shows that the chances of ill effects from acute exposure are minimal, perhaps non-existant. However, consequences of chronic, long-term use of the substance(s) in question are hardly yet known and I think that's what Huffman is really warning us about.

    Hell, IIRC there have even been threads on DF where people describe adverse effects from the JWH's after using for a couple of months (EDIT: not to mention Dixie the Duck's experience above).

    Anyway, as with any substance this new, it's only common sense that one be careful when ingesting them - it's unexplored territory. Common sense however might not be as common as people seem to think, so I think in addition to trying to cover his ass, Dr. Huffman's warning is valid and appreciated.

    @SWIEllisdee, it kind of sounds to me like you resent the potential harm-reduction article simply because it comes from "the man"... well the man isn't always out to get you. Professor Huffman is a chemist and not a neuro- (or any kind of -) biologist, while I'm sure he's not clueless in the field, it wouldn't be him doing the appropriate research/diagnostics. Your skepticism (accusation?) is unjustified and a little adolescent if you ask me.
    Sorry if I misinterpreted SWIY's post.
  9. Terrapinzflyer
    I gotta wonder if they actually talked to Huffman, or are just regurgitating previous quotes.

    These same lines from him have been popping up for a good year or two now- and seems like every time the writer pretends they actually talked to huffman , or at least do nothing to suggest this is from an old interview.

    One previous intervies with him is here: New Interview with John W Huffman

    Who knows- maybe he'd have nothing new to say today. But maybe he's had time to think about things and see things in a different (better or worse) light...
  10. The Network
    How many times and how many different cannabinoids have been proven safe and many have a neuroprotective effect? And so many of you keep saying we don't have any research on these. Well we do, so you can stop trolling.
  11. Phenoxide
    Aside from a small scale ADME study without a clinical trial on JWH-018, there has been no formal evaluation of the safety of a majority of the synthetic cannabinoids that have been commercialized in recent years. If you have any citable information that demonstrates the safety of specific synthetic cannabinoids then I'd be very interested to read them.

    I'd agree that some cannabinoids show great promise as therapeutic agents, but it would be inappropriate to draw conclusions on the safety of all cannabinoids in this manner. The pattern doesn't necessarily hold true across the whole broad family of compounds, just as it wouldn't hold true drawing conclusions between the opioids loperamide and heroin. The safety of a compound cannot be established by homology alone.. if this was the case pharmaceutical research would be a whole lot easier!

    We cannot dismiss the possibility of the dreaded unexpected side-effect. One synthetic cannabinoid may be a perfectly safe and effective analgesic, while another might be just as effective an analgesic but also form mutagenic reactive metabolites that will increase the lifetime likelihood of certain cancers. As Humanity mentions the long term effects are still totally unestablished. Maybe in 20 years time heavy users of certain cannabinoids will all have severe osteoporosis?

    In the absence of evidence it's best to keep an open mind and acknowledge the limitations of our current understanding rather than making unreliable assertions. Research chemicals are actively researched.. the open clinical trial continues.
  12. trdofbeingtrd
    @Alfa- Those are some very interesting points. I did not know that there were some "JW's" that were "safe". When I first read what you said about people liking a pick (like from a menu) I had thought about how at first in Amsterdam and now even here in different parts of the U.S. people can go into a marijuana store and pick (actually from a menu LOL) what type they want. What I had just put into the whole way of thinking is that the SC (synthetic cannabanoids) is legal on both state and federal level (at least some places especially now) where as marijuana even when state legal (only in some states) but not federally legal. Thank you for going over those things for me as I asked.

    @Ellisdee- I am not accusing you of being a conspiracy theorist. However, a trust in scientific findings can be a problem. I am not saying you are wrong, I have no clue.......at least I don't have the knowledge in this subject to have a for sure answer. What I do know is that I have read much more bad experiences with "spice" specifically the newer blends than the old. This is not a challenge against what Alfa has said previously (he has way more knowledge on it than I do) but even the original blends were not "safe" as marijuana that is not "doctored" or "designed by breed" is for the majority of people. This is just from what I have read about the herbs that were in the original "spice". I will admit though, I might have the old "spice" (hehe, old spice) confused with another herbal smoke, but I don't think so. All in all, I can't claim your views are wrong, but it seems as if there should be a time when people try to trust what scientists show in findings. Oh, and if you want I can get the paper (typed out now) I wrote in my research that shows what herbs were used in the "original" spice and how they are bad for people.

    @coolmommaducky- I am sorry you went through this. It is sad for sure, and people can try but it would be in vain to argue with you that "spice" both older blends and newer are safe for the majority of people. Just that your ex had smoked the real deal without problem, then smoked synthetic "marijuana" and ended up with the problems he had. Again, it is only to share that I say anything because there are some people on here that have far more knowledge on this subject than I do. What I do know as I said to Ellisdee is that I have read MANY experience reports that spoke of "spice" as messing them up. I am now deteremined to find out for sure if the "spice" I am talking about is what we all are talking about. Also, your reply inspired me to explore a theory regarding marijuana, "spice", and withdrawals. Again, sorry for what happened to you.

    @Humanity- I do see what Alfa is saying, and now have something to mentally digest (a lot actually, I got what I asked for hehe) at the same time, I do agree about when the creator is saying something, it should be appreciated...........but.......the last poster leads me to.........

    @Terrapinzflyer- You raise a very valid point. Since being on this site, I have learned that a lot of news articles can actually be a biased attack in a way, just disguised as something helpful for people. I need to see how many of these "interviews" are really interviews and not just someone taking words out of context to fit their own propaganda. Thank you for raising another valid point and providing the link.
  13. Crazy Insane Sanity
    The article is trying to say that we should all listen to him when he says to stop taking it because there are serious adverse effects. While I agree fully that there may be adverse effects, and that these effects may even be irreversible, that does not excuse unjustified claims that they are dangerous. I think that was the point Ellisdeee was trying to make.

    I have heard of many adverse reactions to synthetic cannabinoids, involving rapid heart rate, increased blood pressure, and panic attacks, but I have not yet heard any confirmed reports of really serious incidences. Until more info is available, nothing can be said one way or the other.

    Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that we need to stress that these compounds might be dangerous...but we should avoid making baseless claims in the process. The lunatic has had a really bad panic attack triggered by JWH-018, and another by JWH-250. He won't touch them now. I do believe that people should exercise caution with these compounds.

    I really don't know if pointing our finger at Huffman is really what we should be doing though. It seems to me, based off what this article quoted him as saying, that he is only stressing that we are lacking data, and people are putting themselves at risk of unknown side effects. Dr. Leo Schep seems to be the one making baseless claims, trying to get these substances banned.

    So we should respect his opinion because he's a chemist? Sorry, but that is not a valid argument. It's an appeal to authority. This doctor is trying to get this stuff banned because...the chemist that made them says they might be bad for you? Why not give us actual data that points to serious health problems involved with it's use? Wouldn't that make for a much more solid argument than, "Well this guy says they are bad...I know he's just a chemist, and I'm the toxicologist, but because I don't have enough information to make any claims, I say we listen to this guy, who says people shouldn't use them." :rolleyes:

    Again, I'm not trying to advocate the use of these compounds...just pointing out that the argument posed is faulty.
  14. trdofbeingtrd
    I am confused as to who you are saying this to.

    Sorry, not trying to be difficult, I just don't see who is doing that.
  15. trdofbeingtrd
    Okay, so then while I am looking for those papers, I am confused. I had thought original "spice" was made mainly of different "smokable" herbs. The JW's I thought came after. When I had started looking into "spice" a year and a half ago, before the bans started coming in, I could almost swear I had seen more of "herbal blends" in regards to original spice than synthetic chemically created substances.

    While I do my own homework, if someone can clear this up I would appreciate it.
  16. Balzafire
    Yes. What you aren't processing is that these "Herbal blends" have been spritzed with a solution containing the active cannabinoid or research chemical, dried and then packaged. The botanicals in the product may remain consistent, but the research chemicals in the solution changes as the laws change.
  17. trdofbeingtrd
    Thank you :)

    Okay, I found some of the papers, seems I didn't type out all of them. From those and what I found in doing searches, even the herbs that would be seen as unsafe to smoke (and are thought to cause psychological damage WITHOUT those cannabanoids sprayed on them) were a problem. I guess when I did the research the first time, I read about spice being just "smokable herbs" without anything added was actually a lie (this is in the early 2000's). So first you have certain blends (not all) that had herbs which are not safe to smoke, then you have cannabanoids (some but not all are unsafe) which add to the problem.

    It seems that people are quite torn on this subject. You have the people who going from a non scientific point of view have experienced bad things from "spice". You have the people who going from a non scientific point of view have had nothing bad happen to them and think it's propaganda for the most part. Then you have the people coming from the scientific point of view, which it seems as if only a small amount say that all JW's are bad and more saying that some are bad, some are good.

    I do like what Pheonixide said about immediate research vs. long term reserach (not his exact words), because it further supports the people coming from a scientific point of view who see "spice" as being both bad and good depending on the research chemical being used.

    Thank you again BOF for giving me an answer so soon.
  18. Terrapinzflyer
    somewhat off topic here maybe...- but can anyone find any record of Huffmans views on actual cannabis, or for that matter any other intoxicating drugs? It would help to have some baseline of his views to help put his statements in perspective.
  19. Terrapinzflyer
    Nope- other then they are claiming it is not one of the banned cannabinoids, which leaces dozens or hundreds of others... Some research on the web *might* turn up a lab test...

    I can't speak for Alfa but I too removed the font/colors from your quote above. They are a feature of VBulletein, and while I think they can be useful in some limited circumstances, more often then not they end up making things harder to read. (or maybe I'm just old...)
  20. Shanty
    AFOAF at one point was smoking bong pack after bong pack of a -018 and -073 mix. Smoked for 2 years strait. 60mg/g.

    Psycologically, he became withdrawn & parioniod. His short term memory crumbled. His lungs were in bad shape. Irritable when he wassnt high, and when he was high had no energy to do anything. Cannabis he could function on, go into the woods for a hike. On the JWH's the woods held no awe or wonder, he didnt really care.

    It's defiantly addictive, not like Horse or anything, but addictive just the same. Even when He was sick and could barley talk and his throte burned he would still smoke it.

    Smoking it while tripping has the potential to be horrifying.

    This stuff is definatly fucked. It's not natural feeling in any way. Not a clean high. Even if he is getting drug tested, this stuff is still hardly worth it.

    Orally... it may have potential as sometype of medicine. But for god's sake. Just make the real thing legal and everything would be ok.

    On the long term He's actually horrified by what He might have done to myself....

    Only time will tell.....

    You can tell your self all the negatives I'm talking about is just nonsense, but be honest with yourself. Be aware of what is happening to your body and question it! Don't just ignore it! Think about it. Then make a decision.
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