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To Bitch, Or Not To Bitch? That Is The Question!

  1. Mick Mouse
    Logic and rationality are like three-edged blades, and two of those edges wound the user more than the third wounds the enemy or benefits the user.

    The so-called rational analytical approach embodies a fundamental flaw, a flaw which has consistently and historically either been ignored by both rationalists and scholars, or minimized. This flaw is the assumption that matters, feelings, or occurrences that cannot be described rationally or quantified objectively are of such little significance that they will not affect the outcome of the analysis. Further, such "non-rational" feelings or occurrences are all too often termed "irrational" and thus dismissed as beneath consideration.

    In attempting to evaluate all too many human situations, in practical terms, there is indeed a difficulty. How does one quantify love or hatred? Exaltation or depression? Patriotism or beauty? How can one present any of these "objectively"? And how does one weigh that impact on human conduct? Upon economic or political behavior?

    The problem is merely made worse by the rationalists who dismiss those who cannot present their case or argument objectively or rationally. Failure to present a case in rational terms does not mean the case does not exist! It only means that either the presenter cannot provide a logical format, or that the case is not susceptible to logical presentation. By insisting upon an objectively rational case, the rationalists impose what can best be described as "the tyranny of logic."

    Solicitors and attorneys of law have historically been the leading tyrants of logic, but there are many, many others waiting in the wings for their turn. We have seen through the ages how totally unjust, unmerciful, and irrational laws and judicial decisions have been reached through pure logic and rationality. Moreover, the tyrants of logic question the value of the so-called irrational. Of what use is great art? Beautiful music? Inspiring architecture?

    Or the differing opinions of others?

    In point of fact, any decision-indeed, any organization, group, or culture-which does not incorporate emotion, passion, and other so-called "irrational factors" will, in the long run, fail. Why? Because the absolute reliance on quantified facts and pure logic reduces the intelligence of the decisions of that group or organization or culture. The evidence of history demonstrates that few strong groups or societies have existed transgenerationally without an internal culture that embodies irrational elements such as love, beauty, art, music, or differing opinions.

    Yet, from the distant past to the far future, supposedly intelligent men and women have striven to ensure that the decisions that they make are grounded in absolutely quantified or quantifiable facts and pure rational logic.

    Why?

    Can you not understand the importance of irrationality?

Comments

  1. Alfa
    Feelings are important, but that does not imply the importance of sharing those. Especially in case those feelings are unreasonable. Because then you are simply satisfying the urge to bitch. The fact that a feeling eexists doesn´t make it reasonable nor valid by default. It´s not a form of honesty to allow any feeling to manifest, if that means exposing others to such bitching. And its worth pondering if its fair to oneself to allow one to expose oneself to the negativity of bitching merely because its an urge. After all: if one focusses on negativity frequently then the negativity grows in you and expands. You feed it and grow it. Until its so big that you carry it around as a part of you.
    Yes, the importance of irrationality is a heavy one.
  2. Mick Mouse
    unreasonable to whom? those who have the feelings? Or those who deny them? if a feeling is not shared, of what use is it? If love, or art, or beauty is not shared, what does it become? If, on the other hand, frustration or anger is not shared, in a constructive manner, it becomes a festering wound. And who should determine which feelings are unreasonable? those who are caught up in the grip of those feelings, or those who are uninvolved? And if you suppress your true feelings, are you truly being honest, with either yourself or others?

    I would suggest that all feelings are valid, either subjectively or objectively. It is the manner of expression of those feelings that determines acceptance, either of oneself or by a group. If you can come to terms with yourself, you can relate to others in a positive manner, even when in a negative circumstance. And your comments regarding the focus on negativity and it growing is spot on!

    For instance, I recognize quite clearly that I am opinionated and stubborn. Argumentative on good days and downright cruel on my bad days. I have strong feelings and opinions on certain subjects, and I am convinced I am correct in those areas, because I have not been shown otherwise and in a fashion that I can accept. However, even at 51 years of age, I also realize that I am a work in progress, just as I realize that this work will probably never be completed. I think that can be said of anyone, if they were being honest. Am I irrational? Absolutely! Do I realize that fact? Absolutely.

    Does it matter? No, not to me, because that is who I am. But I can also see how it could matter to others, so I work on it. I work on my "people skills" and how to interact in a positive manner with others. I am a product of my past, and that past has been both brutal and cruel, but I am slowly moving away from it and towards a more positive feeling. I came home broken both inside and out, and I will never be "normal". But I can be honest about my feelings, and for me, that is progress.

    Perhaps I should have given more thought to the title of this entry. I now think that I should have certainly made it very clear that this entry was "general", in that I was not referring to any particular group, such as D-F, or any particular individual. I had to read your comment several times to discern the true meaning of your words. And after doing so, I had to go back and read again what I had written. I can see how it might be thought that my comments are a veiled reference to this forum, but I assure you that it was not meant to be that way. I think that it is well-known that I am not afraid to say what I think or feel, regardless of the potential consequences. But I am working on that as well.

    After all, your feelings are just as valid and just as important as mine. 30 years ago, I was an undiagnosed sociopath, which is why I excelled in the military. I did not see people as "people", I saw them as targets to be serviced. 25 years ago, I realized that there was something fundamentally wrong with this concept, but I didn't really care.

    20 years ago, I fell in love with the most wonderful woman in the world (still not sure how that happened, it was "hate at first sight", and I suspect that magic was involved), and she made me a better person than I could have ever become on my own and introduced me to the idea that other people had feelings too, that they were "real" and not just markers to be moved about on my gameboard. So I put away my toys and tried to become human again. I have had my ups and downs, but for the most part, I am making progress.

    I was a monster in a man suit, until I discovered the irrationality of love. Today, I am an opinionated asshole, but not a monster. And I'm OK with that. And I would like to rephrase your last statement-it is the burden of irrationality that is heavy. But its importance is off the charts.
  3. Alfa
    Of course there are invalid feelings. If a person feels violent hatred for all black people just for the color of their skin then that feeling is not valid just because it exists. Its not a logical statement to say that persons feeling is just as valid as the next. There are worlds of differences between feelings. If the aforementioned person feels he needs to kill all black persons, then feeling certainly does not need to be manifested. Its also not reasonable to say its a valid feeling just because its part of who the man is. I´m taking an extreme example here to make clear that feelings are certainly not valid by default and that feelings being part of a character does not add any validity to the expression of feelings.

    What makes the expression of feelings reasonable is if they can be expressed without being an unjust negative influence upon others. If not then such feelings are not reasonable to express. Such actions make your problem the problem of others, which can be egoistic and unreasonable.

    You may be OK with being an opiniated asshole, but if that implies that you hurt your loved ones without valid reason then it indirectly will hurt yourself as well. Eventually more than anyone else.

    I think in the bigger picture of the history that you describe all progress is good and to be applauded. But its the main direction and the bigger picture that are most important. Small steps from bad to better are great, but it still doesnt validate being an iasshole or making mistakes. Mistakes at the expense of others are still faults.
  4. Mick Mouse
    Perhaps not invalid as much as irrational. Feelings are subjective, and how do you objectively judge the subjective experience of another? Which, if I am understanding you correctly, is essentially what you are saying in your first two sentences. And I agree with your statements about the differences between feelings and that negative irrational feelings should not be manifested.

    And if you substitutes that word "rational" for 'reasonable" in your second paragraph, I could accept that as well.

    And I am not particularly OK with the fact itself, for the reason you mention, among others. It exists, and I am working on it and making progress. That, I am OK with. I don't have to be perfect tomorrow. I just have to be incrementally better than I am today. I try to make amends when I fuck up now, and I try not to fuck up so often. And never again with family, I learned that lesson quite well in 2006. Still working that one off, too.

    But again, irrational does not have to be negative.
  5. Alfa
    Of course not. Being irrational can be a very beautiful thing and bring many positive things in life. After all when you really look at human behavior: how many things are really decided upon a rational basis. People like to believe to be rational beings, but more often than not decisive factors are outside of the rational scope. Emotional intelligence, instinct, customs, affection, desire, love, lust, are all valid non-rational decisive factors that few would like to do without.
  6. D0pe
    I often dislike people who are irrational and was thinking about what that exactly meant to me.. If someone is standing behind me at a Mcdonalds and says you wear way to much cologne i will turn around and tell them to step away.. Then this irrational person would persist to expand on how he/she is offended and has more of a right to be there than i do. Plus many more examples that would take forever to type up....

    A example of irrational behavior might be gambling or buying a lottery ticket.. Yea it might be irrational but if i win it seems pretty rational to me. I know the risk and i know the odds, but i also know the possible profit potential that comes with the risk. Hence a irrational behavior is turned into something that is very rational if the outcome is positive.

    The guy in line that is bitching about my cologne could be viewed as both rational and irrational.. I suppose its a matter of perspective and for me i would just assume to grab him by the neck if he continued to be irrational and persist with it.

    I hate irrational and unreasonable people ""A combination of both" It will put me in a state of instant irritation and i will be agitated or i will block them out all together. I was talking with a buddy about my views of a irrational person.. The more i think about it i think it would be best described as a unreasonable person.. But like i said combine irrational and unreasonable which could be summed up into the same category... It puts me in a state that could result in irrational behavior..

    This one hit a cord with me in some way. Mostly though i am thinking about how the guy at Mcdonalds complained about my cologne. Wishing i would of had a can of Axe that i could spray around me in a annoying and unreasonable manner.. Further provoking the behavior that i thought was irrational behavior. This is my behavior as a flawed human.. I would best explain it as pride and or arrogance.. I do not see myself fitting into the Spock role.. "Star Trek"

    I think a good saying could fit into my outlook on things. Its hard to follow and we all break the rule.

    "Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself"..... A nice quote that i always remember..

    Sorry for flopping in on this one and leaving my 2 cents..&(
  7. Mick Mouse
    @Alfa-I agree completely.

    @DOpe-the examples you give could certainly be seen as negative irrational, most certainly. As I was reading that, I though about the person who walks up behind you while you are smoking and then starts complaining about the smoke and their "rights" to a smoke-free spot....."Dude, you walked up behind me and then decided to stay there. You don't like the smoke? Push off then!

    But I was talking more about positive irrational, such as beauty or love or even patriotism, for that matter. Things which are subjective, and yet, attempts are constantly made in an effort to rationalize them, or make them objective.

    And comments are always welcome!
  8. D0pe
    I understand what you are saying about positive irrational behavior. Though as far as positive rational behavior in my experience is all about who is judging the behavior. ""Unless the person is self aware and has his/her own agenda that is for themselves"" But even still i think what you are saying is hard to understand and would be a topic that would be mulled around in my College Debate class.

    In my account i was taking into consideration Personal Rights: Which is rules and expectation that you setup for yourself that you expect others to follow, regardless of if others know about your personal rights and or rules.

    I have seen positive irrational behavior with love in my life and even patriotism in the news.. I could give a few examples but i think it would be hard to explain to someone and would be subject to questioning and debate. This behavior i have noticed could be viewed as irrational in the heat of the moment but positive irrational when common sense and logic came later.

    On a funnier note and not to be disrespectful to your blog i was having a thought and a laugh.


    Maybe if the guy who was complaining about cologne was the most loved celebrity in the world, a decorated war hero, recognized by the public, and then wearing a leather dare devil suite with stars and stripes on them then lit some patriotic sparklers of red white and blue and then did a kart wheel then proceeded to complain about my smoking or cologne i might smile and say ""sorry sir"" i will do what i can to respect you... Then smile and view it as Positive and Irrational then totally understanding that i am a prick and should respect other peoples personal rights and pick up on social cues better.

    And the Smoking thing.. I have been at a Casino that has ashtrays everywher, Some guy complains sits down next to you at a table of people smoking then says.. Do you mind the smoke that is very disrespectful.. Since the guy was being rude and not polite about it, I remember blowing a cloud into his face.. ""Pet Peve is irrational and unreasonable people" If he would of said. ""Hey guys i am a non smoker and would like to join you. Do you think you could put out your smokes so i can sit down for a bit and have some fun with everyone, With all do respect i would appreciate it" I would put out my smoke and most of my respectful fellow gamblers would also.. Then the guy that refuses would be viewed as being irrational..

    Making me ramble my jaws on this one, Forgive me.. It just reminds me of so many situations in life as far as human behavior and irrationality and the difference between positive irrational and negative.

    Good blog though i love when someone creates a good topic to think about, debate, and open to conversation.
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