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  1. old hippie 56
    From BBC


    Using drugs as weapons 'unsafe'

    A report by the British Medical Association points to the example of the Moscow theatre siege of October 2002 where over 120 hostages died.

    The Russian authorities had used a drug delivered through the air-conditioning system to end the siege.

    Medics argue the innocent are inevitably harmed alongside criminals.

    It is impossible to deliver the right drug in the right dose to the right individuals in a way that is both effective and does not cause significant deaths, the BMA's Board of Science concludes.

    The anaesthetic drug used in Moscow killed one in six of those present in the theatre.

    It warns that using powerful drugs in this way may constitute a violation of international conventions which prohibit the use of chemical weapons.

    And future advances in drug development may spawn more sophisticated and sinister agents, it says.

    Dr Vivienne Nathanson, head of science and ethics at the BMA, said their concern surrounded drugs that could poison and kill at the wrong dose, rather than less harmful agents used for riot control such as tear gas.

    She explained: "It is disingenuous of governments to describe drugs as non-lethal - there is no difference between a drug and a poison except the dose.

    "It is virtually impossible to control the amount of a drug delivered or to ensure it acts without producing toxic effects or causing death."

    She said doctors needed to be aware that their medical knowledge might be called upon for the development of drugs for military purposes, as well as antidotes and treatments.

    She urged medics to advocate against the use of drugs for law enforcement and not be involved in the training of military or law enforcement personnel in the administration of drugs as weapons.

    According to the report, some experts in some countries, including America and China, are pushing for legislation to allow the use of chemical weapons beyond the current narrow definition of riot control.

    Dr Nathanson said: "It is absolutely essential that we do not allow an extension of the use of chemical weapons or a re-writing of the law that bans them. If we do, that will put all of us at risk."

Comments

  1. Alfa
    For a moment I expected this thread to be about the flow of opium towards Iran.
  2. Shiacmkmleer
    IDK, the whole russian thing could've gone A LOT worse. 120 of the hostages died? thats a lot better than EVERY SINGLE one of them dieing (which would've been more than 800). If the Russians had tried to do any other way every single person inside could've died. Not only that but there would be people saying "Man the russians should've tried air born drugs"
  3. Nagognog2
    It seems it was some ultra-potent Fentanyl derivative. And the hostage-takers were Chechen Moslems wired with explosives and carrying firearms. Considering that these same folks have also seized a school and killed a whole pile of children - tough call. One in six? Or six in six? We'll never know what would have happened had they not used the opiate aerosol.

    Bush probably would have used VX and Napalm.
  4. darawk
    They used Carfentanyl. The only reason so many people died is because the medical staff at the scene was not informed of which gas was used to knock them out. Almost all of them died due to aspiration of vomit / suffocation. The vast majority of them, if not all of them, would have been saved by a simple administration of naloxone and being placed in the right physical position so that they didn't suffocate.
  5. Psych0naut
    They used a fentanyl derivative less potent and more dangerous than carfentanyl, either sufentanyl or remifentanyl, combined with an anesthetic gas, either halothane or isoflurane. Even though carfentanyl is much more potent than most other fentanyl derivatives, it's much safer because the amount needed to kill a person is much larger than one needed to anesthesize someone.
  6. FrankenChrist
    Drugs... this are actually chemical weapons we are talking about :/
  7. darawk
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2004/moscowtheatretrans.shtml

    I'm pretty sure it was carfentanyl.
  8. Nagognog2
    According to Dr. Ketchum - who was a researcher with the army at Edgewood Arsenal for many years, it was sufentanyl. Not that this makes the price of petrol drop.

    The medical crews were armed with naloxone. But not enough and not quick enough.
  9. snapper
    SWIM doubts they used an anesthetic gas since isoflurane and halothane stink at anesthetic concentrations and would take a long time to induce in a large room, but fentanyl derivatives have no smell at doses necessary to induce anesthesia.
  10. Shiacmkmleer
    Correct! After all what city has a lot of Naloxone on tap? Idk should this happan in the future if Russia does this on day one they should get more naloxone in the city.
  11. Beltane
    SWIM read an article about this in a magazine a couple months ago.

    An interesting sidenote is that before this happened, according to the article, Russia had a fairly serious problem with illegal fentanyl use. After this disaster they decided they didn't want fentanyl around any more so the rounded up the fentanyl dealers and literally killed either some, most or all of them- can't remember which.

    Practically overnight Russia rid itself of this fentanyl problem. Users were quoted as saying the stuff just vanished and was nowhere to be found. Compare that with what the U.S. calls its 'War on Drugs!'

    Additionally, the very next day after this mass roundup occurred, there was a new product for sale over the couter in the pharmacies, and it contained codeine. The users all swapped over, some were quoting the new situation as somewhat improved. One user's $300 fentanyl habit not cost him something like $20.

    I'm pretty sure the magazine is called 'Vibe,' and this article was in the 'Russia' issue a few months ago.

    Fascinating to see the difference in the way Russia handled this problem and what we are pretending to do in the U.S.

    - Beltane
  12. Orchid_Suspiria
    SWIM wishes somebody would pump a fentanyl derivative through his ac!lol
  13. Zaprenz
    Didn't they also combine whatever fentanyl they used (or scientists have hypothesized they combined it with) a stimulant chemical which effected inhalation/breathing.

    Or if not I vaguely remember them talking about the concept on the horizon documentary?
  14. Salvinorin A
    This is kinda different...but would be more of a prank rather than a weapon...

    Would it be efficient to put an LSD stamp like on the back of someone's neck? Sooner or later they'd trip? Could totally confuse the enemy!

    Nah, but I think using weapons that fuck with people's insides isn't that great (glad they outlawed chlorine back in the early 1900s.)

    However, using drugs that would knock them out cold, it could save their lives rather than a high chance of dying from bullets or something.
  15. Nagognog2
    Dr. Ketchum's book* begins with a hypothetical attack on an Iraqi "insurrgent" position with a US helicopter spraying a fentanyl-derivative aerosol. And you can bet it's not really so hypothetical. Only public opinion (and worry that the news would leak) is holding the USA back from using all sorts of goodies.

    * Chemical Warfare - Secrets Almost Forgotten
  16. stoneinfocus
    Since there´s restrictions to the tv and radio they´r e probalby using whatever ´s there to use, when nobody´s lookin´...

    throw in some fentanyl, some tactical a-bombs and shot some radio-active uranium 238 ammo on that place, just in case someone might ever get there to look for radioactivity.. use some sarine on bunkers, where´s the fuckin´ problem?

    damn! those billions of taxes should give some decent toys and privacy to play with.

    Who would give up a job using i.e, a 30mio. $ toy, wich makes any plain or ferrari or bond-movie awkward, speed, downers, good income and insurance and equipement of the finest the biggest western country can give, plus a great deal of comarades? I´d better rave about it.
  17. El Calico Loco
    In his mad scientist moments, Swim sometimes wonders if it could be possible to engineer a virus whose payload was LSD or 2C-E or something instead of an illness. Such a thing might be the world's first weapon of mass creation.

    So long as it didn't last much longer than a cold.


    ECL
    ("Crap, I'm starting to trip...stupid flu season...")
  18. lulz

    The CIA experimented with the use of LSD back in the 70s, in a project called MKULTRA. They wanted to use it as a weapon against foreign leaders etc, spike their drink so that they start tripping out and therefore appearing to be insane.

    http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_media1.shtml


    I can't remember where I read this, but it was probably one of the declassified MKULTRA files: the CIA developed a delivery method for LSD where an agent would have a thin translucent disc on the inside of their palm, the center of which was coated with milligrams of LSD. All they had to do was shake the targets hand and the droplets of LSD would be transferred and absordbed by the skin.
  19. Nagognog2
    MKultra was launched in the 1950's - on the heels of Project Artichoke. Read your history.
  20. lulz
    What's with the tone?
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