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I've recently been speaking to someone on youtube who has schizophrenia and was asking me if it MDMA would help him. I told him I didn't know, he should ask his doctor befoe trying any MDMA therapy for his condition, and other general words of advise (for both sound mental health advise on schizophrenia, and responsible MDMA use incase he does try it)
One of his messages in the converstaion was this to give you an idea:
Lol, that's the only way to explain my schizophrenia - there's one voice who tells me the right way and another voice that tells me the wrong way. They, quite simply, are not me. And it doesn't matter what I call them I can call it good conscience or bad conscience God or Satan Life or Death they're talking to me and telling me stuff man you have to understand. And I already went to the doctors for medication and they did INDEED enforce the law on me. Here in America we have this thing called a 51 50 which means you are on suicide watch and by law if you tell a doctor that there's a voice inside your head telling you to kill yourself you are an automatic threat to yourself and by law they have to detain you and study you for a certain amount of days on different medications and they have to permit you back out into public seeing that they have found the right medication and you are showing them that you can function back outside. I'm not in the UK like you was born in Germany, yes, but I now reside in the US and it is very tricky over here. I don't know about going to a clinic and asking a doctor if it would be alright for me to seek therapy for my schizophrenia in MDMA which is a recreational drug you know? I've already done E a few times since I've been out and all it has done is change my life view and made my good conscience a bit louder.
Now I suggested its probably not a good idea if he is actively hearing voices and that he should ask a doctor before undertaking any big choices, but would love to know of any people on the forum who have schizophrenia and have done MDMA and what effects it had. I think that there have actually been some limited studies on MDMA treating schizophrenia, but I cant seem to find them at the mo.
I can see how it might help, but schizophrania is a whole different ball game from PTSD and general MDMA therapy studies.
Mixing substances such as MDMA with such a condition is a VERY risky game.
Well aware of that. Thats why I told him categorically that i dont recommend it, and to ask a doctor.
I think thats why theres no large studies done on MDMA therapies role on patients with schizophrenia. To risky a condition to mess with. But I can certainly see how the empathogenic perspective MDMA can give people on life might let a person with schizophrenia see how unreal their shirzophrenic symptoms are and 'snap' out of it so to speak. Though I can also imagine how this could go terribly wrong and give them all sorts of extra psychological confusion.
Since he has already made the decisiion to take pills before, I just recommended he not use pills but pure mdma and buy testing kits. Figured if he is going to use it then may awell do it as safely as possible.
yeah , i looked into this a while ago.Theres some information on the internet re MDMA and LSD therapy with schizophrenia with positive results but these have been done in clinical trials in the 70's etc.I also read some info about some therapist's/psychotherapists in US present day who are open to this sort of therapy ,however ,only a few.very experimental and i think a lot of health care professionals/doctors are too freaked out to explore this area.but i'm only going on what ive read and im a complete novice (medically).
Also someone i know who has schizophrenia took some MDMA recently and he was fine , no problems during or after what so ever.from what i observed it was a positive experience for him.
To my knowledge the main drug which a person with schizophrenia needs to stay clear of is pot, because it can induce paranoia and confusion etc
Morqpog added 575 Minutes and 34 Seconds later...
Having said that , this person really should speak to their doctor about it and maybe take 1/2 tab instead of a whole
Last edited by Morqpog; 18-03-2009 at 23:20.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
^i tell this to a few of my friends with schizophrenia that smoke pot everyday. they swear it helps them but i think its only because they smoke it everyday that when they stop the withdrawls put stress on their bodies which amplifies the schizophrenia. the only other drugs they ever do is speed which is another one they should steer clear of.
^i tell this to a few of my friends with schizophrenia that smoke pot everyday. they swear it helps them but i think its only because they smoke it everyday that when they stop the withdrawls put stress on their bodies which amplifies the schizophrenia.
A lot of people with schizophrenia DO choose to smoke dope, for some largely unknown reasons as of yet. I still dont think its good for their condition however, and usually compounds the problem rather than helping it.
swim got severe depersonalization for a few days after stopping chronic weed use cold turkey (used daily for practically his entire youth) and he complained of feeling very odd for a while. He also had done MDMA and BZP earlier that week, so cross effects can not be ruled out. It lasted about seven days, and swim didn't feel like he was himself, he felt distant, like watching his life through a movie. Everything had an odd nastalgia feeling, as if swim was disconnected from reality and living in a memory. If swim was not a moderately intelligent person who understood what was possibly occuring as a withdrawal he didn't work himself up about it but tried to ignore it and distract himself from it, but this state could likely trigger psychotic or schizophranic symtoms in people predisposed to it (studies have also shown a roughly 2x increase in developing psychotic symptoms or having a psychotic break with adolescants when used chronically, seemed to mainly be caused by skunk with high THC to CBD ratios)
Altough cannabis is not thought to have any serious withdrawal symptoms, if the persons been relying on it to cope with aspects in there life, they suddently have to face up to everything when they stop. Which can lead to odd symptoms to cope with the situation. Depdends on why they use the drug. Most people are fine.
Dont think MDMA would expect to cause this though, as people do not use mdma every day, like chronic weed smokers (there a few well known isolated cases of daily abuse for years), and so at least MDMA is not keeping people in ther altered states 24 hours a day, so frequently that is stops them keeping touch with normal reality, which is where psychological issues may suffice when discontinued.
Last edited by Synesthesiac; 19-03-2009 at 07:19.
Reason: edit to make this post make any sense, now swim is sober
I knew a guy who was schizophrenic and he constantly smoked pot daily for a year, maybe more.no problems from what he said , no episode , no hospitalisation.yet as soon as he went cold turkey , he was hospitalised,go figure. ha ,i can't work that one out.and yet it's so true, that some schizophrenics smoke pot.To me it doesnt make sense.maybe pot smoking has benefit in some biochemical way even though it is the trigger for schizophrenia
Whilst I don't have an adequate understanding as to be able to advise, I too would agree that mixing such an emotionally powerfull stimulating drug such as MDMA, or any amphetamine, with such a condition would be very risky.
Also, MDMA may or may not interact with the anti phycotic or anti depressant medication taken in conjunction for the condition; either diminishing or potentating the effects of the MDMA; the medication. Or have other unforseen adverse effects on the medication or the condition.
Using a very small amount I think could help if you work on the therapeutic side of it and do it in a very stable environment and able to talk and communicate with him about his schizophrenia.
Although I thinking using a very large amount of MDMA could trigger a huge episode and should be avoid using an amount that high. My Penguin has used a large amount of MDMA and it really put him a bad state so one should be careful when dealing with someone with a medical problem.
I dont know for sure but since mdma will effect serotonin it should help but then again its also a stimulant so Idk if it effects dopamine too. But someone who has schizo. doesn't want to take stimulants they need depressants. I think a benzo should help alot more.
Schizo is basicly to much dopamine not enough seratonin and gaba. So mdma might be helpful for a little bit but I think it would actualy make it worse when the person comes down. A guy names Abrahm Hoffer used to treat Schizo with larger doeses of niacinamide at 2000-3000mg per day. It would eventualy cure the patiant as long as they took it everyday.
I'd be highly uncomfortable with the idea of someone with such a serious mental illness self-administering MDMA. Even if trials were conducted in the 1970s with encouraging results, there is a massive difference between a drug administered by trained medical staff in a clinical setting with follow-up supervision and care, and someone with a mental illness self-medicating.
By the guy's own admission he hears voices that he describes as not him (which is in and of itself delusional) and at some point they've already told him to self-harm, which led to him being put under medical supervision. I'd be worried that encouraging him to play with psychostimulants is only going to fuel the delusions and put him at further risk. The fact that he has already experimented and believes it to be helping his 'good conscience' is a concern, as that suggests that it only served to reinforce the delusional thought processes rather than diminish them.
I see a few folks have posted that they knew one schizophrenic who was able to do drugs with out a problem. I don't doubt that, I've met a few schizophrenics, including two brothers, schizophrenics have VERY little in common with each other. Symptoms cover a very wide spectrum, many of them, like catatonia, are never seen by the general public. Treatments run just as large a gamut. Schizophrenia is poorly understood, but it is understood that each case is pretty unique, each patient needs to be handled separately.
That being said, psychedelic therapy can do AMAZING things if properly administered. Stanislav Groff's LSD Psychotherapy has all sorts of stunning case studies and is well worth the read. That book and The Secret Chief are pretty much required reading for anyone interested in the topic.
It is possible for a person to do this by themselves, but I don't feel it's ever safe to recommend, over the internet, self-administered psychedelic therapy, ESPECIALLY when it comes to schizophrenics. There is a lot of risk, and with out knowing a persons full history, their support system, living conditions, contingency plans, there is simply too many factors to be able to make a sound recommendation.
I feel a lot of people read over case studies, tripp reports, and stories, of how psychedelics help a person get through a mental illness, and fall under the impression it is some sort of miracle fix. That one can take a drug, have a fun trip, and suddenly everything is better. That isn't how it works. These drugs work because they take down The Wall, they allow a person to look objectively at their deepest issues, fears, secrets, all the shitty things they've become ill from. That is NOT a fun process, it is fucking terrifying. It isn't THAT different then traditional therapy, except what takes years, if not decades, to go through orally, is slammed into a few hours. Catharsis isn't a walk in the park.
Psychedelic therapy is essentially choosing to go through a classic "bad tripp". The difference, hopefully, is that the person dives in head first, right into all those terrible things in the ego death, instead of freaking out, panicking, and thinking they are going to die. Actually... the person DOES need to die, it's the rebirth process that helps heal.
Someone helping a person go through a treatment like this is above and beyond a tripp sitter, as I said, the person is INTENTIONALLY going into a "Bad tripp" and the doktor needs to be able to deal with this. Both people should have read and studied every piece of info on psychedelic therapy they can get their hands on, they should put months of work into preparation (I'm a huge advocate of this for any tripp, working on set and setting for weeks can do AMAZING things for a tripp). They need to have contingency plans if things go bad. The doktor should be prepared for needing to care for the patient for an extended period of time afterwards, or at least being on call once the patient has established baseline.
I've heard MDMA for couples counseling is a really great way for two people to end relationship on good terms. (Leary Politics of Ecstasy, Pendell Pharmako/dynamis) Once again, not exactly a walk in the park, lot of sharing, honesty, tears...
If this person is in the US, tell them to go to MAPS.org and apply for a legit study, they are going on.
A traditional ceremony might be worth looking into, but one needs to have a good long discussion with the person running it, they need to disclose everything, and the patient should put some serious investigation into the Doktor's history, credentials, stuff like that. This is definitely a risky route, we had a mother come here a few years ago trying to find help for her son who went to a bad shaman a few months earlier and was still not right.
But should a schizophrenic ever attempt self administered psychedelic therapy? Hell No! It is simply to risky and can very easily land the person in jail or worse. A schizophrenic should think long and hard about the worst they've been at, they need to think baout what it would be like to go back to that state or worse, of knowing they did it to themselves and they may take a whole lot longer to recover then the first time. They'll also, more likely then not, piss the fuck out of their doctors, who will be a lot less trusting in the future.