Dear Drugs-Forum readers: We are a small non-profit that runs one of the most read drug information & addiction help websites in the world. We serve over 3 million readers per month, and have costs like all popular websites: servers, hosting, licenses and software. To protect our independence we do not run ads. We take no government funds. We run on donations which average $25. If everyone reading this would donate $5 then this fund raiser would be done in an hour. If Drugs-Forum is useful to you, take one minute to keep it online another year by donating whatever you can today. Donations are currently not sufficient to pay our bills and keep the site up. Your help is most welcome. Thank you.
Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Hey guys, sorry to start a new thread on this, however swim didn't want this new information he's found to be buried at the bottom of a thread somewhere like the small print on the bottom of a contract. After taking Sulbutiamine for several days (4 in a row total) he's found some new updates as far as how it's affected his personal health, along with some information that he's found on another forum.
For those of you who haven't read swim's first Sulbutiamine thread check out...
After the fourth night swim found that he was feeling a little strung out, much like he has with the smaller scale uppers he's taken. The symptoms of this included mild mood swings, severely decreased appitite, a slight amount of extra stress, and inability to sleep as easily as he normally can. He was getting mild headaches also, but isn't sure if it was from the Sulbutiamine, or the Piracetam he was taking, however the next day when he didn't use Sulbutiamine he didn't experience these. As swim stated in his other thread, the effects seem to come in waves, so between peaks is when he would feel these side effects.
Swim was also noticing some pleasant effects of taking this substance. He can usually tell something's messing with either his seratonine or dopamine levels because he gets this "pulling" feeling on the sides of his head whenever on those type of drugs. This along with being in an almost intoxicated state for most of his shift at work (day 4) made him think something was up. The symptoms of this were, noticable modified mood (quite calm, and happy at peaks), small good feeling waves all over his body, and slight loss of motor coordination (at times).
While the intoxication, and waves of slight euphoria were enjoyable common sense told him all that was happening was probably not going to have good long term results. After searching for a while he found a post in another forum...
Quote:
ChrisYuhas
08-10-2009, 08:08 PM
Here is the information I came up on Sulbutiamine. References are numbered.
Sulbutiamine (1) AKA (thiamine disulfide, Aneurin DBE ) and pretty much most of the “thiamine analogues” out there in my opinion are fairly dangerous to the user if they do not know what they are doing to themselves. The reason this stuff has so much “kick” when taken in products is because it manipulates the neurotransmitter dopamine in an identical pathway to cocaine ingestion. Unlike amphetamines and other “uppers”, such as ephedrine, the thiamine analogues REDUCE the body’s ability to produce dopamine, trap dopamine in the area of the brain called the synapse, and almost stop the function of dopamine transporters called DATs just like cocaine. (1,2,3,4,6)
Here’s why this is addictive in a nutshell and based off of my research and it’s similarities to cocaine. (8) Dopamine is the body’s feel good neurotransmitter. When thiamine analogues are ingested dopamine transporters are disabled. Dopamine transporters take dopamine out of the synapse (and area in the brain that processes neurotransmitters) so that the receptors in the synapse are not overloaded with too much dopamine at once. If there is too much of an overload at once then a stimulatory affect occurs along with appetite suppression, euphoria, etc. The problem here is that the dopamine transporters are literally shut down and the body keeps pumping the rest of its dopamine in the synapse making your neurons go FREAKIN NUTS, with no way to get out. You can maintain a good effect for about 3 or 4 days blocking DAT. Then, the come down occurs. Finally the body will bounce back in a couple of days and increase DAT and start pulling that dopamine out of the synapse all the while desensitizing the body to dopamine for being trapped in the synapse for so long. Then you have reduced dopamine output, desensitized dopamine receptors in the synapse, and lowered DAT levels. All those levels reduced are the equivalent to depression, lethargy, emotionless state, etc. This is the addiction mechanism that people are experiencing, not to mention one interesting case of a guy coping well with his bipolar disorder then completely disregarding this therapy after taking thiamine analogues. (7)
Here’s where this product gets more dangerous. If taken with a very widely prescribed SSRI like Zoloft (sertaline HCL) a person could literally render themselves clinically insane for a real good couple of hours. Mind you people do not just publically go out of their way to claim that they take antidepressants. Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants like it FORCE a HUGE dopamine release in the body to curb depression in individuals. Now put two and two together here. You take one drug that forces a high release of dopamine, then the next product traps that forced release of dopamine in the synapse where it cannot be removed because the DAT (dopamine transporters) are almost disabled. Two words for that individual: temporary psychosis. I would not want to be on the business end of that kind of withdrawal.
The other aspect I do not like about this fat burner is that its ability to suppress appetite causes most to eat well below their caloric intake per day and disrupts the mini meal process. Most traditional dieters are terrible when it comes to eating properly without getting too busy at work, life, etc. To cut properly a person needs to eat within negative 500-1000 calories per day with high protein, glutamine, and efa intake. Any more calories than that is just a prayer for a pro-catabolic environment to burn muscle for energy. I’m personally bothered when I hear about the girl who likes it because she only needs to eat one time a day or the guy who says the same thing for that matter as it contradicts core aspects of dieting to reduce catabolism a.k.a. the body using muscle for energy.
The reality of the product in my opinion is along the lines of pro hormones. Some people feel the side effects while others suffer minimal headaches if none at all. I think due to a high number of people on the net giving the same feedback of depression, lethargy, motivational issues, it sounds exactly like a person riding high on cocaine for days then needing almost a week off to function like normal.
If you know a person who has ingested a product like this I would recommend taking L-Glutamine, L-Tyrosine, L-Phenylalanine, 5-HTP, L-DOPA, and a multivitamin, to jump start the body’s ability to produce dopamine in adequate quantities once again.
7. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum (Bipolar patient had developed high tolerance to sulbutimine and intake of compound lead to increase mental instability)
While the above post may seem a little extreme, it does show that there are some potential risks when taking this substance. It also shows that if one is to take it, one should probably take every now and then, as needed, as opposed to supplement form.
Note: There were also withdrawals from stopped use of Sulbutiamine on swims first day. He woke up and didn't have hardly any energy for the rest of the day. He had a few muscle cramps, and reported slight mood instability. All of these have not been apparent on the second day from quitting. If you've been taking this for a while already he would recommend maybe weening yourself off a bit as opposed to quitting cold turkey as these effects could worsen and lengthen with duration of use.
Regardless of all of this, swim still sees potential in Sulbutiamine for use in all night study sessions, easing the comedown of amphetamines, among other things. He just wants to throw in a cautious word of advice. Hope this helps.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
I'd like to point out a few logical inconsistencies with the quoted article.
The quoted article asserts that sulbutiamine acts in a similar manner with respect to central dopamine function to cocaine. Cocaine is a well-studied dopamine reuptake transport antagonist, which decreases the reuptake rate for synaptic dopamine in several areas of brain related to motivation and cognition. The long-term effects of cocaine include the down-regulation of dopamine receptors, which causes the "desensitization" of the cocaine user's brain to dopamine, as well as up-regulation of the dopamine reuptake transporter (DAT). Both of these effects are the homeostatic reaction to the opposing acute action of cocaine.
Sulbutiamine, on the other hand, reduces dopamine output without directly affecting reuptake. Reduction of dopamine output (probably through a mechanism secondary to it's primary activity on n-methyl-d-aspartate and glutamate signalling) corresponds to a homeostatic up-regulation of dopamine receptors -- an increase in sensitivity -- the opposite of the well-documented effect seen with chronic cocaine exposure -- desensitization. Sulbutiamine seems to make dopaminergic transmission more efficient, thereby reducing the amount of dopamine used in transmission while simultaneously potentiating many stimulants and reducing the withdrawal effects of dopaminergic central stimulants like dextroamphetamine. By this functional model, sulbutiamine has an opposite dopaminergic effect compared to DA releasing agents like amphetamines (since it reduces DA release), and a non-parallel effect with reuptake inhibitors like cocaine and bupropion (wellbutrin, a short-acting dopamine-norepinephrine-serotonin reuptake inhibitor chemically related to amphetamines). Furthermore, sulbutiamine's only significant withdrawal symptoms with respect to dopamine would be caused by the decrease in dopaminergic transmission efficiency. This would manifest as a general weird feeling accompanied by slight motor control disturbances and cloudy thinking, with increased sensitivity to pleasure stimuli, until receptor count returns to normal levels upon cessation of sulbutiamine use. These are merely projected effects extrapolated from other articles and are not based on any specific research on sulbutiamine.
Additionally, the several sources cited which state that chronic cocaine exposure increase the count of dopamine-receptor-containing medium spiny neurons do not specifically state that dopamine receptors themselves are up-regulated, which the author of the post misrepresents as such (that increase in neuron count correlates to an increase in receptor count, which is not discussed in one citation at all). This is a false interpretation of the cited experimental results and conclusions.
As the caution for a dopaminergic drug is always welcome, I contrarily caution against worrying too much about the action of a drug because of incorrect preconceptions. Such preconceptions can actually change the effect of a drug, which is most clinically evident with psychoactive drugs of all kinds (greatest effect size of placebo, compared to most non-psychoactive drugs). A quick google search will validate my claims about cocaine reducing receptor count, and sulbutiamine increasing receptor count - opposite effects.
However, in light of contrary evidence, say, a study which conclusively shows that chronic dopaminergic central stimulant exposure increases dopamine receptor count, then the warnful quoted post would be greatly validated. Yet as the majority of evidence is contrary, we must as logical individuals reject the stance reflected in the quoted post.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
If I'm not mistaken you can combat the down regulation of the dopamine receptor with a NMDA antagonists. They block calcium entry into cells, which prevents the cell from becoming tolerant to dopamine. It prevents addiction from forming. It makes it to where the cell can feel dopamine, but doesn't become tolerant to it. So you can still get euphoria, but you won't feel cravings for it or have a diminished effect from the euphoria next time around. So if you where to take magnesium or dextromethorphan with these it would prevent tolerance. Please correct me if i am wrong but i am pretty sure that how it goes.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Salvia... how do you know there wasn't a chemical contamination in your sulbutiamine that was causing your poor mood? My experience with sulbutiamine lasted five minutes before the high died and my kidneys and liver were in pain.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Got a good batch this time. works great... makes me have tons of energy but cant feel the full effects due to some sacks of dead shit trying to turn me into a robot... if only i didnt have all this shit nano technology in my brain preventing me from experiencing it......
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
For me, sulbut. is extremely potent stuff. I prepared 600mg capsules and took one today after I had laid off for a few months, and I'm freaking out right now. It hit me while I was driving and I had a rough time getting home safely. This isn't JUST because of sulb., however, it's a combination with other substances that affect catecholamines, such as rhodiola, other herbs containing high levels of catechins and tannins, and stimulant substances such as acetyl-l-tyrosine, (etc.)
I will never make this mistake again. The combination of other things I took is quite common for me, a safe daily routine, but after adding sulb. I got blasted with a syngergistic effect that is extremely unpleasant. Symptoms including feeling like I'm going to faint, feeling like I have to make an effort to breathe, and lack of coordination. Blech. On the plus side, my vitals are fine --- normal blood pressure and pulse, so I'm not worried.
This thread hasn't made much mention of the glutamatergic action of sulb., and I think it deserves some attention. I'm suspicious that it might be the main reason for my generally bad experiences with the stuff, as I'm highly sensitive to MSG (for instance) --- but I have no clue if that would correlate to sensitivity to other glutamatergics and I know that mechanisms for that system are extremely complex.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Interesting that some of you get such potent results.
For whatever reason (perhaps its the 10mg paroxetine & 300mg bupropion affecting it), I don't get anything from this supplement. I've tried doses up to 600mg and I got nothing out of it that could be noticed.
Does sulbutiamine have a flour consistency to it? Wondering if I got some bunk stuff, then again the piracetam I ordered from the same person has the signature sweet/sour taste of piracetam so I don't think I'm getting ripped off.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Quote:
Got a good batch this time. works great... makes me have tons of energy but cant feel the full effects due to some sacks of dead shit trying to turn me into a robot... if only i didnt have all this shit nano technology in my brain preventing me from experiencing it......
What the fuck. Please tell me you are schizophrenic. I am seriously thinking about purchasing this stuff.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
I find it very interesting that people get buzz or a direct effect from sulbutiamine, if your read about it's rather understudies MOA you would realize all the nootropic properties of it, are the result of upregulation of various neurotransmitters due to it's inhibitory properties.
Which is just another way of saying, Sulbutamine works best for long term.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Wanted to leave a tasty tip for you - while sulbutiamine does taste like shit when it's in plain water (even with a little sugar), I have been adding it to the remainder of my morning coffee with creamer once it cools down, and you can barely taste it. I mix about a gram of sulbutiamine powder in the last ounce or so of coffee and just sip it in.
Then I take a nootropic mix an hour or so later - piracetam, vinpocetine, huperzine A, choline, alcar, ALA, and a little sugar to make it taste a little beter. Yum.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
I've found that Sulbutiamine is a pretty nice nootropic, however I'm definitely not taking too much of it. I take approximately 200mg to 400mg daily and the mild euphoric boost I felt the first time hasn't seemed to reappear however I have noticed a lot more of a relaxed state of being as well as it working itself into my Nootropic stack quite well. I've been taking CDP Choline as well which has been used in helping treat cocaine dependencies due to its effects on the Dopamine receptors.
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Hey buddy. Just finished your post. Has been a while eh?. Are you still there? I d like to ask you about some related things..please get to me if having a while..don't wanna waste your.time just understand a bit more and say.thank you..cheers and thx in advance
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
Sulbutiamine seems like it's okay for a PRN or long term use. I would say that tolerance is strong for me as I take 200-400mg eod. But with 1000mg of l-Tyrosine and 2x20mg of Adderall, lecithin, 50-100mg of Phenylpiracetam, and 100 mg of Sertraline, gave me a hypomanic boost of energy for an hour or two yesterday.
franglish9265 added 0 Minutes and 51 Seconds later...
Anyone experience performance enhancements from it?
Last edited by franglish9265; 08-01-2015 at 14:54.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Re: Sulbutiamine, while awesome, not for the long term
This is some weird shit. I took 800 mg with some Waffle House on the side. I got like this caffeinated buzz and was kind of happy, it's been about two hours and I got a stomach ache and a weird feeling in my head, I'm hoping it hasn't worn off yet but I'm sticking to vyvanse for now on unless something changes
