Dear Drugs-Forum readers: We are a small non-profit that runs one of the most read drug information & addiction help websites in the world. We serve over 3 million readers per month, and have costs like all popular websites: servers, hosting, licenses and software. To protect our independence we do not run ads. We take no government funds. We run on donations which average $25. If everyone reading this would donate $5 then this fund raiser would be done in an hour. If Drugs-Forum is useful to you, take one minute to keep it online another year by donating whatever you can today. Donations are currently not sufficient to pay our bills and keep the site up. Your help is most welcome. Thank you.
Swim has chewed salvia more than 10 times and has smoked it no more than five, swim hated smoking the salvia he felt it was too strong and uncomfortable. Through chewing he has found ways to go very far out there with salvia he has seen a video on youtube where terrence mckennas wife was talking about how the indians would use salvia and the rituals they would go through and figured he model his experience after theirs. The first thing the indians see is that salvia hates to be smoked and they say it is bad karma for one to smoke salvia. So taking advice from the only culture in the world that has a relationship with the salvia plant he decided to chew some leaves they would use 39 pairs (78) of huge FRESH leaves through his previous experiences he has found dry leaves to not be that strong and that the only way to do salvia is by using fresh leaves (so go out and buy yourself a plant) it is also much cheaper that way. Swims most recent experience was the strongest experience he has ever had he used 50 grams of FRESH leaves.
So how do you get the most out of chewing salvia?
The first step is very important
1. Wash your mouth out with vinegar/alcohol to open up your blood vessels in your mouth
2. Stick the leaves in your mouth and chew them up very good
3. Put the leaves in the front of your mouth and kind of use your mouth to rub the leaves against your front gums to really get the salvinorin into your blood stream.
4. Keep them in your mouth for no less than 30 minutes DO NOT TAKE THEM OUT (unless you feel it is too strong)
Now for swims last experience swim had washed his mouth out with vinegar and stuck 50 grams of fresh leaves into his mouth after about 10 minutes he began to feel the onset of salvia started to feel the pins and needles and then about 15 minutes into it he began feeling as if reality was going to rip away in front of his face and he was also all alone in the room and got very scared he felt like he needed some friends around to share the experience with so he spit the leaves out only 15 minutes into the experience and did not get the full effects of salvia but felt as if he did not need to go any farther he then got onto the computer and listened to music and starting singing songs that came to his mind out of nowhere (if he was not on salvia he would have not of thought of these songs) also to be noted was as he moved from his bed to his computer it was hard to walk so he just sat in the chair until the salvia effects wore off (about an hour and a half later)
So remember for the best effects follow this guide but always be careful with salvia not for physical safety but for mental safety because salvia can be a very scary plant and can take you places you arent ready for yet the biggest key is to make sure you are ready for the salvia experience most people in the world are not ready for a full blown salvia experience and thats why I think so many people are turned away from salvia not because of the salvia but because of their own irresponsibility with just diving into a plant teacher they arent ready for yet.
I agree. when one smokes Salvia, she returns the favor by making them sweat profusely (burning) and sucking them through a tube! Many people report this experience, so I believe you, it is bad karma to use her in this way. People have offended her the way they offend every other living thing on this planet. Mass production, marketing, selling on the internet, posting ridiculous videos on youtube. I notice these people dressed up as hippies, smoking it, and laughing. I never laughed at anything with salvia. I wonder if these people are even actually smoking it, or if they are actors in commercials created by enterprising merchants who are rushing to sell as many bags as they can until it is illegal to do so. Its all about the money. We exploit nature, and so when she gets the chance, she exploits us in return! An ancient spirit has been awakened and is dealing the wrath upon us!
Thanks for the info. SWIM purchased a little salvia plant for this very reason. His first experience with salvia spiritually sucked him into hell, and caused his body to go into fight-or-flight, injuring himself and could have very easily injured those with him had they not had their head on a swivel. He's smoked her a few times subsequently, but has done the research and will never blaspheme Lady Salvia with fire again.
The only prob SWIM's having is that his little plant isn't growing very fast. Its the "blossomer" strain (sp?). Its about a foot tall now and is producing leaves, but they're little (anywhere from an inch to four inches in length). It's obviously a cutting and he can tell the stalk was cut at the top... He's thinking this might be why she isn't growing up, but out and getting bushy. She's beautiful, but even if he pulled all the leaves off he'd probably only get two or three grams. He knows leaves will grow in inverse proportion to the ammount of light the plant recieves, so he keeps her in indirect sunlight and only waters her when she needs it.
SWIM's thinking he's just going to take a cutting that has some nice nodes and isn't capped off. That stalk should grow taller and he'll be able to yield enough leaves for a quid. He will not smoke salvia again, but he does miss her and her ability to remove the blinders that our bodies impose on our consciousness. Till then, deep meditation will do.
Wom Dum Phuk swim use to wonder why people reported laughter when swim never experienced that. But on swims second to last trip swim had uncontrollable manic laughter but it was not fun at all.
Swim is wondering why swiy's are anthropomorphizing a plant and using words such as "she" and "blaspheme" and "plant teacher" and "spirit". Swim has seen a green lady, twice, with eyes closed, but swim has also seen satanic goat head and fire, familiar people including celebrities, outlandish machinery, smurf like people, 2d cartoons, giants, and other incredible concepts with eyes closed; people who look and feel like friends and family in different dimensions, worm holes, hearing voices and feeling presences, involuntary movement in another dimension and few other things on break-throughs; patterns moving and hearing objects speak to swim with eyes open.
Nothing really suggests there's a goddess or spirit living inside the plant, or that its alive in an extraordinary way. And if anything, the encounters with the green lady were sexual orientated which happened after swim read about the possible entity and had wanted to meet her.
Not meaning to rain on swiy's parade or anything, swim also wishes to try non smoke usage of salvia because swim doesn't like smoking.
The Japanese refer to Tengu, the spirit of the Amanita mushroom.
I could go on and on. Yeah, it's not scientific but it's spiritually satisfying and I really do think that treating a plant with reverence and respect is more likely to result in a satisfying experience, regardless of why. Has a spirit been appeased? While, think about that and really give it some thought, don't just immediately dismiss it as superstition. Maybe it's your spirit, maybe the plant's. Maybe it's psychosomatic.
Or maybe when discussing phenomenon for which scientific vocabulary seems inadequate one must resort to metaphor. Maybe the metaphor the plant itself gives you is the most fitting. Plant intoxication has been leading people to use anthropomorphic metaphors for millenia. Perhaps this indicates some greater truth about the nature of the intoxication.
If you really want to understand ethnobotany you cannot dismiss this, you must try it out for yourself and see how it feels. That doesn't mean you have to be superstitious, think of it as "temporary suspension of disbelief". Like those people who watch a movie and just bitch about how unrealistic it is, they never enjoy it the way the people who just let themselves go. Don't scrutinize the intoxication, or try to understand it scientifically and logically.
Experience it on its own terms.
And I think it's great people are experimenting with the traditional method of use. OP said:
taking advice from the only culture in the world that has a relationship with the salvia plant
Now this is ethnobotanical wisdom! Trust the people who know the plant best. It is a true shame what has happened to this fine plant. It is blasphemy, because a thing of beauty and enlightenment has been made a gross commodity.
So swiy does it because they want to, fair enough. "True" Science and spirituality are supposed to be one and the same, both teachings of what people believe to be true, except with science people can prove their claims and spirituality is more of a what if type of thinking. Then there's beliefs which religions rely on because they can't prove what they claim. Swiy examples cross between spirituality, religion, myth and folklore, braking down the validity of spirituality.
Science can be used to disprove all the above, but swim thinks spirits can't be proven or dis-proven. But more so following the logic that these plants have spirits inside would lead to the belief that all plants have spirits, and indeed all living beings too have spirits. To then treat one or a selective few with reverence is blasphemy in itself, would swiy not agree? To care more about what is dead and what you are about to consume in any sort of fashion than to care about, say, a lowly fly or any plants in swiy backgarden which swiy might cut down, which are alive, is discrimination, correct? Or to grow and kill and praise enthogens for the sole purpose of gaining subjective wisdom from it is selfish at the least, no?
Even if swiy was to argue only plants which grant hallucinations and psychedelic effects had spirits inside them, not forgetting the bufotine frogs, one would wonder why that was the case. All swimmers know the answer knowing the chemical makeup of these plants. If anything swiy is worshiping the chemicals and not the plant, therefore the plant itself is not special. Like the Egyptians worshiping Osiris the Sun going up and down they were really worshiping the Earths rotation around a fireball. Swiy's not going to forget what swiy knows about the sun and earth and worship Osiris, or if you like, Horus/Ra/Amun Rah, and pray every night hoping it will rise every morning? No, and swiys knows it. There could be a God but he sure didn't create swim personally the way christians claim, swim's parents did obviously, swim's dad is her real father obviously, the one that was actually there for her, but when swim was a kid she held greater respect for the invisible father and his storybook than for her own parents and school books. Swim is sure similar situations happened thousands of years ago when people worshiped these plants, and just like Christianity heretics and blasphemers would have been killed, all because they didn't believe in a plant god.
If swiys wants freedom to worship a plant (and swim is all for religious tolerance and such), which they have, swiys have to allow freedom for others to use said plant in the way they choose, without resulting to medieval obsolete words. Remember in the eyes of the christians swiys are the blasphemers, but no one cares about them anyway lol.
Everything has a spirit and should be treated with reverence - every living thing, that is. Maybe rocks too, who knows? Maybe everything.
Some plants speak through chemical intoxication. Some through nourishment. Some just look pretty or smell nice, which is its own language. Every organism or natural phenomenon has something to teach us, and that's science.
But sometimes, well, the teachings can't be described scientifically. Science has little of use to say about the psychedelic experience, in my opinion. "Some misfiring neurons." Wow. But the art that these states can inspire really has something to say.
Institutional, state controlled religion is not mythology, or folklore, or even superstition. It's political control. We should all avoid this, but we should not let the fact that state run religion has misappropriated mythology degrade mythology. Religion has dirtied so many fine things - poetry, mythology, spirituality, faith - that many people just throw out the baby with the bathwater. But what we need to do is reclaim spirituality from the manipulative shits that have misused it.
I have this problem often when discussing spirituality - it's tainted by misuse. But revering a plant, considering it to be your intellectual and spiritual equal, is not at all a bad idea. It does not logically follow that you should base all sorts of important decisions on this poetic notion, nor does it follow you should force others to do bad things as a consequence. It's just a way to approach a really cool plant with reverence. Not as some carrier of a chemical, that's reductionism and even science is proving it to be false (see modern chemical analysis of cannabis intoxication and what's responsible, or for that matter all plant drugs and what's doing the work behind the scenes. It's often not just one chemical).
Even chemicals deserve reverence. Everything does. Yeah.
Don't just equate one thing with the other; there's nothing ignorant or abusive about mythology, spirituality and folklore. You can't prove art (which is what all of the above are, essentially). If you ask someone to prove art, while, shit? You've missed the point. Prove to me that music is beautiful. The only proof of that is music itself, which is a blasphemy of logic - you cannot define a thing as itself, yet art is just that thing which can only be defined by itself. Scientific explanations of art are always lame and inferior to art as an explanation of itself. Analysis of music is garbage compared to actual music.
Swiy examples cross between spirituality, religion, myth and folklore, braking down the validity of spirituality.
I just don't understand the reasoning here. These things, along with science, can all be one in the same. They are not separate, and shouldn't be. Why should spirituality be provable? Why do we need to prove everything? I'm sorry, but often I feel like people who demand proof of spiritual truth are like people saying "oh so music is beautiful? It moves you? Prove it!"
Yeah, when you start forcing people to do things and executing folks for their disbelief in what you believe, that's fucked. You don't like Beethoven so I kill you? Wrong. Yes.
But all truth is ultimately aesthetic, even provable truth. I can prove that minor chords sound sad, but I cannot explain why. I can prove that acid plus base equals salt and water, but I can't prove why those things react the way they do.
"Why" is a question that is just unanswerable. Which is why annoying kids ask it over and over again until some adult just lies to them to shut them up (which is a pretty good metaphor for religion!)
But beauty and truth is its own proof, and needs no other. Perhaps the reason that salvia went from being a sacrament to a drug that often inspires terror is that people started approaching it wrong, with reductionist disrespect.
Or maybe I'm totally wrong, and regardless this post is veering off - and has been since the beginning - into "spiritual insights" or "euphoric mind" material and I need to stop, obviously my typing hands are over-active this fine stormy evening.
You equate what is essentially hear-say to art? Well I guess, if it was manufactured for a purpose. But beliefs are just that, what people believe, whats real, atleast to them. Art can be simplified as a form of self expression. If someone told a story about a yeti because they thought they saw one they're reporting what they believe. But if someone told a story about a yeti they made up to excite people then that could be called art, if these people believe it then it's a belief, to them. Yes its art in essence but it becomes as it is perceived.
So if religions and all its many variations where thought to be real in their creation then they cannot be called art.Spiritually derives from these so its ultimately the same, I guess you were influence by religion before you became spiritual?
Probably remnants of religion are still within you, like me, and you formed your own beliefs or theories of whats real. The only reason you believe in spirits is because it hasn't been disproven, I don't think it ever will, but if it is then you and all the others will stop believing it. My idea of spirit is basically consciousness, I already know how life is made, or rather transfered. Your idea sounds very shinto -esque.
Sure science doesn't know how psychedelic drugs really work, it doesn't know any drugs interact with the brain. They talk about neurotransmitters, serotonin, dopamine, receptors and antagonist but they don't know how the effects in the mine are made. No one on earth does. That doesn't mean there are spirits in these chemicals or plants, there could be, but who knows.
This thread did get derailed lol but not many people are posting so I don't think it matters.
Rose added 3 Minutes and 53 Seconds later...
" it doesn't know how any drugs interact with the brain" I missed the "how" in that sentence.
Last edited by Rose; 25-05-2011 at 21:41.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
So if religions and all its many variations where thought to be real in their creation then they cannot be called art
When religion originated the concept of Real vs. Unreal didn't exist. There was just perception, and as people started to gain the language and brainpower necessary to share perception with one another, they made immediate recourse to mythology, painting, song, dance, ritual...religion.
Early art is absolutely inseparable from religion. The notion of secular art is at best from the Axial Age, circe 500 BC, but even Greek statues of realistic nudes were to the Greeks celebrations of divine truth. As was mathematics.
More likely the notion of secular art is an Enlightenment concept, at best a few hundred years old.
This is why I equate "good" religion, that is religion that is about expressing the beauty of the perceived universe and not about oppressing and misinforming people, as art. Going by a modern definition of art is to ignore the history of human thought and invention as described by archaeology and anthropology. Art has, for almost all of history, been the tool through which mystical notions are conveyed, and still is for many of us.
People who wish to simply write off religion and mysticism as a mistake of the past are overlooking the fact that their worldview is very recent and has brought the world just as many mixed blessings as religion. Science has healed us, made us wise, and nearly destroyed our planet and us. Religion has driven perhaps the greatest atrocities known to man, yet has produced the most wonderful art also.
Science is good, but we can't just write off the entire history of our species as a big dumb mistake. If anything future generations will write off the modern industrial age as such, and rightly so.
I don't really believe in spirits but I think they can be useful metaphors, if you keep in mind they won't be granting you wishes or saving your life.
I'll take the shinto thing as a compliment. I can't think of anything bad about that religion, unlike most of the others.
Religion and mysticism is ingrained into all of our minds, even Richard Dawkins'. The four cardinal directions can ultimately be traced back to religious concepts. Our earliest understanding of astronomy, the seasons, time, sunrise and sunset, was all completely couched in religious metaphor. This is how we learned how to think and understand the world. We should embrace this and try to understand how our ancestors' minds worked so we can understand how our minds work.
One of the best ways to understand how these ancient people thought is to try some of their ideas out for yourself. Chew some salvia (or some other herb with a long tradition of religious use...), dance, chant, sing, paint on a cave wall. See how it feels. Then when you come down, read some science about the chemicals in the plant, read some anthropological or ethnobotanical studies of the people who have a religious relationship with the drug you've taken, try to understand, but also you must try to simply feel.
Embrace both disciplines, that of the mystic and the scientist, and you will see they are actually one in the same.
Science is knowledge in the purest sense of the word. Without the knowledge of how to paint you can't paint. Cave paintings were around long before the first known religion. Religions are beliefs most likely made up by a few to create and control societies. Sure people wondered where we came form and whats the meaning of life, so its obvious these people accepted religion through culture, family, etc. The ones who disagreed or grew up in different locations made their own religions, which is evident. So ofcourse real vs unreal existed, not everyone believed in spirits or sky gods or had a hell and underworld or was about good vs evil etc. As I said before those who disagreed, the heretics and blasphemers, they would have been killed or exiled. Also as before, your current beliefs "Religion and mysticism is ingrained into all of our minds" are preconceived, we're all born into world full of religious dogma. Its pretty hard to escape it.
Where was salvia found anyway, south america? Aztecs, Mazatecs, Mayans? Didn't they sacrifice people down there? Its all good being enlightened by salvia but why do you need to follow in other peoples footsteps? Just because they found it first?
The Greeks founded complex mathematics? They were very homosexual weren't they? Should we be gay when using maths?
The reference to Shintoism was about them thinking everything has a spirit inside, but now you changed what you said and called it a metaphor
This discussion is totally off topic so I think it ought to end, because obviously neither of us is convincing the other. But that first paragraph in your post reveals you don't really understand ancient human history, archaeology, anthropology, etc. Your definition of religion is painfully modern and incomplete.
Mazatec shamans never practiced sacrifices to my knowledge, that was a state practice of the Mayans and Aztecs- you continually confuse state practices with spirituality because states have used spirituality as justifications. Should I dismiss anything a crazy asshole uses to justify being a crazy asshole? Manson was inspired by the Beatles, so are the Beatles evil?
The Greeks founded complex mathematics? They were very homosexual weren't they? Should we be gay when using maths?
This is just ridiculous and insulting. There is no connection between homosexuality and Greek math, whereas there is a very strong connection between plant intoxication and reference to spirits. You need to read a few history books, and get your head out of the scientific sand it's stuck in.
Cave paintings were around long before the first known religion.
False. Cave paintings are almost certainly shamanic works. Shamanism is the first religion.
Without the knowledge of how to paint you can't paint.
Then where did the painters of Lascaux get this knowledge? This results in an awful chicken-egg paradox. Anyone with mud on their hands and an imagination can paint. False.
So ofcourse real vs unreal existed, not everyone believed in spirits or sky gods
Sources? Evidence? People living in so-called "primitive" conditions - foraging societies, basic horticultural societies, even cheifdoms, even people in many modern state societies, do not differentiate between things like spirit and myth and what we call "imaginary" or "superstitious" beliefs and things like bows and arrows, plants, etc, things that are concrete and real. Your distinction is very modern and you are forcing it on the people of the past because you don't understand their beliefs. Again, do some reading.
The reference to Shintoism was about them thinking everything has a spirit inside, but now you changed what you said and called it a metaphor
Everything anyone has ever said is a metaphor. Language functions through metaphor, through symbolism - a word is a made-up stand-in for something else. There is no reality to it, it only references reality.
Again, we're not convincing each other. I refuse to subscribe to scientific reductionism and the imposition of modern ideas onto ancient people, I refuse to dismiss religion and mysticism and to conflate them with state sponsored or culturally sanctioned atrocities. Yet we do have to deal with humanity's horrors, we can't pretend like science has ended atrocity. It's been with us always, it's part of our dark nature. I don't understand it but dismissing anything associated with it is useless - we'd have to dismiss our entire species. But saying "religion is bad because people have used it to justify bad things" is just overly simplistic. "Religion is bad because it has promoted ignorance" yet religion has also promoted knowledge and art...it's the double-edge of human invention, it's all capable of good and evil, like a knife, a hammer, a split atom or a mythical notion.
Yeah swim and swiy went a bit crazy with this. Swim's first question was answered and thats all that matters. It doesn't matter that the other doesn't think the same thoughts, that's what allows society to be so diverse.