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  #1  
Old 20-01-2011, 14:28
ExHedonist ExHedonist is offline
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Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

I know, I will get criticized for saying this but I am sure that those in the know would agree that a heroin addiction is far less damaging than alcohol and/or coke addiction/habit.

Therefore whatever you do, don’t get your friend to swap heroin for alcohol and/or coke because you will probably find that he will do his charley and then drink to calm himself and then when downer starts he will seek out H because by now he knows that nothing works better for a coke come down than some H but since he has been drinking as well he will soon find himself nicely chilled out only to fall asleep without ever waking up again. This is the classic story of people who have run to alcohol having been a junkie. My best friend and soul mate went this way. I never forget the last thing he ever said to me: “I haven’t felt this relaxed for years”.

First of all I think they should legalise heroin before legalising Marijuana because again with the exception of over dose, Heroin is less damaging than cannabis, especially in users under the age of 25. But since our politicians and others with vested interests are not going to let that happen then I suggest you get your friend on a Methadone program.

Remember William Boroughs lived to be 94 after having been a heroin addict for some forty years and then on Methadone for the rest of his life.

Unless or until the time comes when he decides to give the whole lot up and then he will hopefully be able to come off for good or if he is or becomes an anhedonic depressive like my friend then he will just have to carry the cross to his grave.

Post Quality Reviews:
Nobody can really argue with any degree of veracity to heroin being 'better' than cannabis. It could be debated but if so then SWIY should start a separate thread in the correct sub-forum. 4bucks thread is not the place to do it.
please use evidence to support your claims
relevant and truthful information and advice, good contribution
makes some truthful points, although it could have been more clearly articulated
This is completely unconveivable.
Even a lot of drug users on this forum would probably criticize you. But you should have mentioned addiction, whose damage is magnified by Prohibition.
I think you're on to something. BUT- you need to be more tactful, and use some evidence to back up your claims.
  #2  
Old 20-01-2011, 14:59
Spucky Spucky is offline
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AW: Re: Getting clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExHedonist View Post
Remember William Boroughs lived to be 94 after having been a heroin addict for some forty years and then on Methadone for the rest of his life.
Even when i share some points of your Statement this last paragraph
makes me Vomito a lot

You can name maybe a few People above the age of 65
but i can name you Thousands of People who are not even reach the middle Age!
Quote:
Heroin is less damaging than cannabis, especially in users under the age of 25
This is a very dangerous statement, please name a source for a Proof!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4bucks View Post
Please,any advice would help a lot.He's only got one person in this world who tries to encourage him to do right,and that's me.
One Idea is to put this People into a prophylactic Buprenorphin aka Subutex/ Suboxone Program to start a further Therapy!

Last edited by Spucky; 20-01-2011 at 15:10.
  #3  
Old 20-01-2011, 15:56
ExHedonist ExHedonist is offline
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Re: AW: Re: Getting clean

QUOTE=Spucky;942993]Even when i share some points of your Statement this last paragraph
makes me Vomito a lot

You can name maybe a few People above the age of 65
but i can name you Thousands of People who are not even reach the middle Age!
I bet you couldn't name a thousand people of any kind.
This is a very dangerous statement, please name a source for a Proof!
You have obviously missed the point and I am not quite sure what you mean by proof. If you mean the fact that Boroughs lived to be 94 then actually I think de died when he was 83 but that is beside the point. I am sure "you" can easily check that out on the web.

I am only guessing here, but I think like too many other people you have lost sight of the science in the hysteria surrounding heroin addiction.

As I said (and assumed to be common knowledge) with the exception of danger of over dose Heroin is relatively harmless. But off course I am talking about the real stuff not the street product which is cut with all sorts nasty of things.

Again as it is common knowledge, it is often the life style of heroin addicts which leads to their deaths and/or contracting infections diseases such as HIV and hepatitis.

I assume that we are dealing with intelligent people in this forum where there is no need to frighten people away from one drug or another by resorting to the kind of propaganda that the prohibitionist governments use who are the real responsible parties for making criminals out of millions of sick and needy people.


One Idea is to put this People into a prophylactic Buprenorphine aka Subutex/ Suboxone Program to start a further Therapy![/QUOTE]

I don't know about Japan but in UK only Suboxone is available on the NHS which is Buprenorphine plus Naloxone. Unfortunately Naloxone is known to induce depression and therefore not suitable in all cases. I would predict that this is contributing to the declining rate of success being observed amongs the addicts trying to give up using Suboxone.

Post Quality Reviews:
Finally, some political background and well-though analysis of the status-quo.
a dangerous statement, THC is never as bad as DAM
Never assume anything is "common knowledge" (common to who?!), always back up your statements of fact by citing your source material. We ARE a community of intelligent people, which is why we want facts, not things assumed to be common knowledge.
  #4  
Old 20-01-2011, 16:27
Spucky Spucky is offline
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Re: AW: Re: Getting clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExHedonist View Post
I am only guessing here, but I think like too many other people you have lost sight of the science in the hysteria surrounding heroin addiction.
I really doubt that,
no one can lose the sight of something unknown

There is not much we know (about Pathways, endogenous Dopamine exchanges, the Influence in the Behavior and the reasons behind)
that is for for sure,
but our knowledge is always growing

The rest of your statement is hypocritical,
Heroin is mostly illegal everywhere, and a discussion about "When...." is futile and stale!

Last edited by Spucky; 22-01-2011 at 17:53. Reason: for a better understanding of my Post, i am sorry for problems
  #5  
Old 20-01-2011, 18:13
ExHedonist ExHedonist is offline
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Re: AW: Re: Getting clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spucky View Post
I really doubt that,
no one can lose the sight of something unknown

There is not much we know for sure,
our knowledge is always growing

The rest of your statement is hypocritical,
Heroin is mostly illegal everywhere, and a discussion about "When...." is futile and stale!
Now you are truly lost in translation.
  #6  
Old 20-01-2011, 19:26
Spucky Spucky is offline
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AW: Re: AW: Re: Getting clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExHedonist View Post
Now you are truly lost in translation.
What's up? I wrote that we know nearly nothing about Addiction and what's happening in our Brain, nothing else!

And I wrote that it is very stupid that always "this bad Writer" is used as a good example and i wrote that your statement "Heroin is healthier than Cannabis" is wrong!

But we are offtopic, I am sorry

Post Quality Reviews:
Damn right you're off-topic!! And not only that SWIY and SW-exhedonist have now hijacked and completely taken over 4Bucks original thread which isn't fair. This thread has degenerated into bathos!
  #7  
Old 21-01-2011, 19:29
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Getting clean

Ok this is out of hand,

Sorry OP but cant have ppl saying this shit.

Swim would like to clear up a little on heroin and cannabis and everything surrounding which is "safer".

Everybody already knows everything on cannabis so swim wont even go there. Its obviously safe with only ONE known cannabis related death (pretty sure it was synthetic cannibinoid forget which). And all bad side effects are almost completely temporary.

Swim was an H addict for a solid two years and an overall drug fiend for 7. And in some ways the guy claiming Heroin to be safe... well it is.

BUT..... and there is a very big BUT. Its all on how the drug game works. Most use shitty dope and share needles. Swim had access to almost pure heroin and used clean needles almost each time. And because of using in this manner he has no track marks no ill side effects, no nothing. His body is ripped and girls think he looks great.

Besides the massive addiction that has lasted him his life. Besides withdrawal that made him feel like gettin a gun and blowing his brains out, but he was too sick to even get up to do it. Besides watching one of his best friends sitting in a hospital bed with 3% of her brain left working.

The only way the H game is even close to "safe" is if pure H is used with clean needles each time. And then its not really safe, just for the body not the mind. The mind still gets super addicted which is just not there with cannabis, no matter what anyone says.

So weigh it out:

Cannabis which swim can quit even after smoking for 7 years and have only a 2-3 day withdrawal consisting mainly of him getting pissy.

OR

Heroin where the product has to be at least 80% pure and getting clean needles all the time just to keep from fucking the body. Then there is the crazy addiction associated with that makes people do things for the drug that they normally wouldnt do. Swim has never robbed him family for cannabis money.

peace

Post Quality Reviews:
Great post,makes a lot of sense.Would appreciate if you would come back and tell us more
overall great post, levelheaded and covers many issues
beautifully stated points, including the "true" cost of Heroin on the body!
Very good distinction between major differences in body/brain chemistry in the two substances
A really truthful look at the horror of heroin addiction. Great points.
Thanks for bringing some sense and clarity to this thread.

Last edited by Ghetto_Chem; 11-05-2011 at 17:21.
  #8  
Old 24-01-2011, 00:35
Heretic.Ape. Heretic.Ape. is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Off topic discussion moved to new thread
  #9  
Old 24-01-2011, 18:11
orangesandapple orangesandapple is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

I don't understand where SWIY is coming from when he says that cannabis is more dangerous than heroin. SWIM understands that the only dangers from heroin are from the lifestyle and the addiction, but doesn't understand how SWIY could say cannabis is dangerous at all.

Post Quality Reviews:
a good question!
False. Not only are there risks of addiction and the lifestyle, but there are also risks of serious CNS depression to the point of death, taken alone or with other CNS depressants.
  #10  
Old 24-01-2011, 19:12
Spucky Spucky is offline
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AW: Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangesandapple View Post
SWIM understands that the only dangers from heroin are from the lifestyle and the addiction.
This is a bad Urban/Drug Myth

Okay, Heroin does not harming the Organs so quick
(a chronically use/ Dependency will do it for sure)
but it will harm the Brain!

I can replace a Liver/ Kidney/ Lung, etc. but i cant replace my Head

Last edited by Spucky; 24-01-2011 at 19:19.
  #11  
Old 24-01-2011, 19:45
On The Nod On The Nod is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by orangesandapple View Post
but doesn't understand how SWIY could say cannabis is dangerous at all.
On the streets its Scunk thats out there swim doesn't hardly even remebers seeeing weed on the street when he was young(15 -16).

Scunk is scary its kind of dangerous to promote that cannabis is harmless when Scunk is the thing most people will be smoking not 'Weed'.

Heroin is harmful and stay on it long enough and you'll struggle to feel pleasure through anything else but that still doesn't get away from the fact that u can take it every day and remain relatively safe, but I apprecaitte the irony as i'm writing this that I could even suggest Heroin is 'relatively safe' (which i'm not).

But just because Heroin is hazordous no doubt, it doesn't mean that people should believe that street Cannabis (strong stuff) is absoloutley safe as the're both dangerous in their own way, especially to youngsters..

Post Quality Reviews:
"Scunk" as you call it is still weed.

Last edited by On The Nod; 24-01-2011 at 20:07.
  #12  
Old 24-01-2011, 21:39
death&decay death&decay is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Heroin in of itself is really not a dangerous drug, and in comparison to how damaging the narcotic is to the body, then yea marijuana is worse for you. However, if your smoking dope it may be worse for you than weed, not really sure about that part.

However, dope probably has one of the strongest pulls you will ever experience. You may not feel it at first, but after long enough use the feeling of not having a fix will definitely leave you clucking. Swims first withdrawal was rather mild, had only been using pain pills for a few weeks. Well, that was over 5 years ago. Swim has recently been on dope every day, and now onto iv use, and when he stops using it feels like the end of the world. This is only after probably 3 months every day.

Swim probably smoked weed for a good 3 or 4 years straight, and could stop with little to no withdrawal symptoms... The pure misery that H causes is beyond horrible, and an addict will try to rationalize continuing to use, and come up with some type of hustle to keep it going.

Post Quality Reviews:
Well,ive been smoking weed for more years than i can count,and ive never robbed my family or performed sexual acts for it.My point being,heroin can and will make you do things that are not good for your health,as well as damaging your body and mind.
  #13  
Old 24-01-2011, 22:28
southern girl southern girl is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Okay, so I have a question regarding this. Ive been kinda reading this and thinking about Layne Staley. For those of you who dont know who this is (shame on you) he was an amazing musician who was in the band Alice in Chains. Anyway. He died after injecting a speedball, a mix of heroin and cocaine. Now, it was pretty well known how much his addiction devastated him (which is another reminder of how addiction isnt just about money or it being illegal) but his health was literally failing him. I believe he was quoted saying that he didnt do heroin to get high anymore, it was way beyond that, he just tried to stay well but infact it was also the same thing that was killing him, he said his liver was fucked and it was making him puke and shit himself. He said this and any google search can find this information. I can post sources if necessary. Anyway, back to the question. If heroin is so good for you, or more like less damaging than other drugs, then why was Layne Staley so ill? Why was his health so poor?

Thanks in advance.

SG.xxx
  #14  
Old 24-01-2011, 22:35
squeezix squeezix is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

My teeth have crumbled and I brush twice a day. 25 years of heroin use. Tooth decay leads to heart disease, debating getting all of them pulled.
  #15  
Old 24-01-2011, 22:35
Moving Pictures Moving Pictures is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

He probably had hep c, sg, if his liver was failing him. Also, cocaine is highly toxic to the body. I always knew when my father went on a coke bender cus he'd get kidney stones everytime.

Opiates won't really effect your health one way or another provided you aren't chronically constipated.
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Old 24-01-2011, 22:53
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Well I did think about that, but there is no info about it. There was info saying that many assumed he had some kind of illness related to IV use, majority assumed it was HIV or AIDS because of how sick he looked. That was disproved after his death, but nothing was ever mentioned about Hep C that Ive ever read, but it certainly isnt impossible. I was just curious. Thank you very much sir for replying :)

SG.xxx
  #17  
Old 25-01-2011, 01:30
orangesandapple orangesandapple is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

AFAIK Most of the health issues related to heroin are derived from the lifestyle of a junkie not the actual drug. Like if you had pure product and clean needles every time I think you would be fine provided you had a constant supply and never went into withdrawal.

Also, still not seeing how we are calling cannabis dangerous at all. What are people considering the long term health risks? As far as SWIM knows there are little to no health risks with cannabis. Can someone show SWIM what SWIY is talking about?

also @ southergirl
Just a little tidbit on speedballs since you mentioned them. These are extremely dangerous. The cocaine allows your body to handle a higher dosage of heroin then it normally could. However the cocaine wears out first leaving your body unable to handle the higher dose at that point. This is the point where the person generally ODs.
  #18  
Old 25-01-2011, 04:47
gmeziscool2354 gmeziscool2354 is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

heroine is a highly lipophillic derivative of morphine known conventionally as diacetylmorhpine. lipophilicity is the measure by a drug can pass through lipids (fat). in the case of heroine via iv injection, this means it readily enters the brain far quicker than any other morphine derivative

now, this isn't exactly anything that can be easily proved, but there exists something called the 6-monoacetylmorphine (6-MAM) theory. it is the one point the "once an addict, always an addict" argument used by NA, AA. 6-mam is naturally produced by the brain(?) in small quanities and acts as a potent neuotransmitter, directly related to the 'pleasure centers' of the brain. heroine first metabolite is 6-MAM and the 6-mam theory is a belief that excessive herion use can alter the brains endogenous levels of 6-mam and this can cause life long (or atleast long term) effects. i don't know how much vallidity this argument has, but some of the facts are clear.

any way, heroine is pretty serious stuff, and most long term opiate users have serious health consequences, if not from the drugs, from the lifestyles associated. i full heartidly agree, diamorphine should be used world wide for pain managment, its proven effective. methadone is a terrible pain med, and is responsible for more deaths than nearly any drug, in both USA and UK along with most of the world

Post Quality Reviews:
thanks for throwing in some science to a circular debate. source?
thanks for the 6-MAM Theory
  #19  
Old 25-01-2011, 22:08
Ghetto_Chem Ghetto_Chem is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Ya,

Anyone coming on here saying cannabis is the least bit unsafe please read a bit. Swim has used cannabis for years and if anything it has benefit him in life. He started working out, got a job, and was actually a haflway decent person in comparison to the overly rude and crude person he was before.

Swim said what he said before, he believes that its impossible for about 90% of people who try Heroin to even maintain an addiction for years. They either die, go to jail, or quit cuz the withdrawals are too bad. Then there is the fact that H has a very nice and quick tolerance increase, so even if there is a constant supply which is cheap and pure its impossible to keep going up forever.

Where as cannabis has a nice mix of cannibinoids that provide a constant change in high. And it seems that the tolerance increase is difference for bud and H.

This is with swims experience and not scientific fact but, with cannabis if he waits his tolerance will go back down to almost baseline. But with heroin, the tolerance and withdrawal are accumulative.

When he would relapse the first heroin high would be awesome then it was like he had been addicted for that whole time and the rest of the highs are just like when he quit last.

Swim had pure dope at constant supply and was still unable to keep it up. He worked two jobs to pay for the habit and then eventually got too sick to work and then lost it all.

Also even if cleans are used the veins can only take so much. Eventually they start to colapse or retract to nothing and its hard to hit. So ya start to miss and then the bruises start to come up.

Ever seen a guy rotate a needle around in his arm for an hour with one blast left. Every once in awhile he got a lil blood up and would try to shoot only to be missing. By the time he finally got it in he had been doing lil bits for the whole hour and there was none left. He flipped out. (Unrelated but just thought about it)

If we are talking about heroin use as healthy. The only time swim found H to be healthy was when he used it via insufflation (snorting).

He maintained the addiction for years and was a functioning member of society. If the H is pure then snorting even for a bad addict is only small lines in comparison to other substances. Also there isnt that super large and quick tolerance increase like there is with shooting and it lasts longer.

He never once felt like he had any problems with his sinuses besides the times that he got shittier H, which at that time was happening every now and then til he got his bomb connect.

And suggests that if anyone out there snorting Heroin is reading this, stick to the snorting. Swim wish he woulda, maybe he could still use to this day.

Swim bets that every person coming in here to bash cannabis, is a heroin addict trying to rationalize the addiction. Theres no such thing as recreational use, when it comes to shooting H.

Peace
  #20  
Old 26-01-2011, 04:51
Titus Titus is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

I agree that Heroin is benign to our bodies. The 'problems' come from the cut, the cost (because it's illegal) so ppl run themselves ragged and get in all sorts of trouble chasing money to get more H and get jammed up as a result.

Crashing veins is prob the biggest 'problem'. I snort and if it were legal I'd be way better off. People rarely OD on heroin, it's typically heroin AND a benzo or something like that. If they do OD on just heroin it's typically because they have been abstinent for a while, their tolerance dropped, but they ingest the ammt they used to use when they had a higher tolerance OR because since it's illegal the purity is not known. If legal that would never be an issue.
  #21  
Old 27-01-2011, 02:14
gmeziscool2354 gmeziscool2354 is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

@font-face { font-family: "MS 明朝"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; }@font-face { font-family: "Cambria"; }p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Cambria; }.MsoChpDefault { font-family: Cambria; }div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; } heroin is as benign to the body as any other strong opiate narcotic. if taken in a safe and responsible fashion it is actually far less "harmful" (i put that word in quotes because it means something different to each person) than other strong narcotics like methadone, fentanyl, meperdine and others. that being said, the side effect of addiction alone causes more enough damage to give heroin the bad rep it receives.

as to the "6-mam theory", the actual phrase is something i may have invented, but in general this paper is a good place to start reading up about 6-MAM's roll as a neurotransmitter

Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 85, pp. 5335-5338, July 1988
Neurobiology 6-Acetylmorphine: A natural product present in mammalian brain (opioid/immunoreactivemorphine/hypothalamus/GC/MS)
CHARLESJ.WEITZ*t,LOUISE1.LOWNEY*,KYM F.FAULLt,GOTTFRIEDFEISTNERt, AND AVRAM GOLDSTEIN*t

so i came to formulate my "6 mam theory" after reading this and a few others, this being the first study to recognize 6mam as an endogenous chemical in mamalian brains. after reading this one (first reference in wikipedia for 6-mam). from there i begun to study how opiate addiction, particularly heroin could alter its levels, found some good references from that and formed my postulate theory

during the massive blizzard on the american east coast last year i spent some time researching drugs (to be a better more informed member of this community[IMG]file:///Users/spg004/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip/0/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]) and particularly to help someone who i felt very compassionate towards, eyesoftheworld. i first revealed my 6-mam theory to him, explaining why he was struggling to get off opiates. it saddened me greatly to learn of his passing and i couldn't help but feel like i failed to get my point across to him.

to clarify, i use no illegal drugs. my pet monkey, swim (who also goes by other names) uses some drugs, but is not a frequent opiate user, and has never used heroin. he (and me) do our research to help others on DF and in real life.
  #22  
Old 27-01-2011, 03:17
Heretic.Ape. Heretic.Ape. is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Oh man, I didn't know about eotw. I'm so bummed to hear that.

Can someone post a few references to studies that are applicable to the safety profile of heroin and what factors must be taken into consideration?

Or perhaps something concerning a comparison to the effects and issues arising from cannabis?

I see a lot of claims going back and forth with little substantiation. It would be highly appreciated (I'm not above saying that substantiated claims are always worth more rep than unsubstantiated ones in the forums ).
There may be some in the archive...
  #23  
Old 27-01-2011, 04:59
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AW: Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heretic.Ape. View Post

Can someone post a few references to studies that are applicable to the safety profile of heroin and what factors must be taken into consideration?
.
Start here:http://pharmacycode.com/Diacetylmorp...ochloride.html
  #24  
Old 27-01-2011, 05:16
cra$h cra$h is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

yea, scientifically, with all the proper precautions, just about every opiate is just fine for you. But that's not the world we live in. There's a reason why dope is such a taboo subject.

Sounds like to me that the OP is in the prime of that honeymoon point. Come back in about 6 months of continuous use and let us know where you stand then.
As horrible as the drug really is, there's a draw towards it stronger than just about anything in the world. Probably tied with true love. And how far would you go to protect your wife/kids? You'll go just as far with dope.

Post Quality Reviews:
excellent point. while pure heroin may be benign to the body, the vast majority of users NEVER get access to "pure diacetylmorphine"! Theoreticals are great, but we're talking about people's actual lives!
  #25  
Old 27-01-2011, 05:22
80sbaby 80sbaby is offline
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Re: Health Profile of Heroin (debate)

wow ur insane, heroin is far worse than weed.
imagine the amount of pure addicts if heroin was legal.
imagine everyone doped up not taking care of thier children or passed out at a redlite.
not to mention you can overdoes on heroin and not marijuana(well extremely hard)
please have more common sense next time.
as for the alc/coke thing, did you know that suposeubly, alc when mixed with cocaine creates this incredicly poisous toxin in your system that can kill yoou.
thats what i herd.

Post Quality Reviews:
no minus, just please try to contribute something more that vague speculation and false pseudo-science
Pointless and general speculations here. This debate is clearly discussing the long term effects of heroin use, with pharmaceutical diamorphine, and clean/sterile implements. In reality, opiates/opioids are quite safe physically. Also, learn to spell

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