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I have been with my boyfriend for just over 3 years now. When we first got together he told me he was an ex heroin addict and was on a methadone programme. I said I would stay with him as long as he had a goal to one day come down and off methadone.
We moved in together after 6months and he started reducing down from 80mil a day. sometimes he would come down 2 mill a week, or 2 mill once a month, sometimes nothing at all if he was not ready. After almost a year and a half later he was down and stable on 30mil a day and ready for the change over on to subitex. (sp)
He took his last bottle and had to go with out anything for a minimum of 24 hours - and then he took his first tablet. He was extremely ill, asked me for money for drug etc. The next day he said he didn't want to take the subs and wanted to go back to meth but no doctors were open. I had to drive over 100miles for him to buy street methadone.
While he was buying it, I looked in his wallet. In his wallet was a note he had written. [removing prices discussion]
Suddenly everything fell into place - my boyfriend had kept asking me for the above amount of money - and I kept giving it to him. He told me it was a for a surprise for me. But I do not think that was the case, as well as that my bf had been dispersing for a couple of hours once or twice a week. so as I read that note I thought he had been buying extra meth as he was not comfortable on 30 mil but didn't want to tell me. and that is why he had such a bad reaction to the sub. When he got in the car and I showed him the note, he told me that it was like 2 years old and got angry for going through his wallet. I told him what I thought and said if you come home with me we are on a clean start!!! Your honest, you dont ask me for money, you do not disappear for hours and he agreed.
We are two months on from that day now and I do not think he is buying extra meth anymore, I think he is back on heroin. He still takes ages to come home from work when I know its a 30 min drive, there are certain times when I still can not get hold of him. He has stopped asking me for money but now he is having problems with his bank and only giving me half of what we had agreed of living cost etc, carries his bag with him everywhere and the strangest one is that over time all our teaspoons have disappeared!
I dont know what to do, I have not asked if he is using again, but when I tell him I dont believe me for his reasons as to being late home etc = he tells me that it is my problem.
Last edited by NeuroChi; 01-09-2011 at 17:59.
Reason: [removing prices discussion]
First things first, so that you and everyone else can enjoy and benifet from the site, report your post please, and ask those prices are taken out.
Second thing, so that you personally can continue to enjoy and benefit from the site, re-read the rules, people are banned when they cannot, so that others can enjoy and benefit from the site.
Third thing.......there is a safe amount (amount that won't kill you) of what substance your friend is asking about. However, I can let you know that EVERY single person I know in real life, or even here, says that the combination your friend wants to know about is DEADLY. It's not that if you take a safe amount, you will die......of course not. If you get addicted, that's when the possible fatality comes into play.
Someone who knows the answer directly will be along. Until then, just wanted to help you out a little. While the members and mods of DF for sure welcome you, I can't speak on their behalf, but I can speak on mine......welcome and I hope you find reason/s to stay.
Methadone and heroin can be taken together from a practical point of view. One won't stop the other from working. If you are methadone tolerant and use heroin on top, you are unlikely to feel a high from the heroin, because your opiate receptors will all be filled up with methadone, to put it in simple terms. However, the temptation to use more and more heroin to overcome the methadone blockade and get high can be very tempting, and this is very dangerous because of the risk of overdose. There are other things to take into consideration. Tolerance: A few days off methadone can rapidly decrease opiate tolerance, and then to go back to using methadone, and/or to use street heroin can easily result in overdose and death. Also, you never know what your getting with heroin. What you pay for and whjat you actually get can differ hugely each time you score heroin. So again, risk of overdose. If your bf is serious about getting clean, he wouldn't want be using heroin on top of his methadone. If he is not managing to control his cravings, then he should go back to the clinic and have his methadone increased until he is comfortable. This is a much safer approach to dealing with his addiction. And when he is ready to cut down, perhaps he should think about reducing at a slower rate so his body has longer to adjust. This should also help reduce the cravings. I am speaking from first hand experience. I have indeed used heroin on top of my methadone, and because I got away with it a few times, I kept doing it. One day, I woke up with an ambulance crew stood around me. I had to be recucitated with naloxone after a near fatal overdose. Its lucky that I used in a public area, or I would never have been found, and I wouldn't be alive to tell you this tale. So please, if your bf or anyone else reading this post values their life, don't use heroin on top of methadone. At best its a waste of money, at worst its a killer.
After rereading the OP, it looks like the bf in question was reducing his methadone at a very slow rate, one on which most people would be comfortable in adjusting to. This could be speculation, so slap my wrists if it is, but it sounds like your boyfriend just doesn't want to stop using yet, or at least isn't ready to stop. He obviously still has a desire to get "high" rather than just feel comfortable. Reducing at such a slow rate to 30mg methadone should be more than enough for the average human to feel physically comfortable on. If he's using on top of that, its more than likely he just wants to get high. If I were you, I would have a heart to heart discussion about his motivation to get clean. All the coming home late from work etc, sounds very familiar to me. Typical behaviour of a user who is trying to hide their using. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm just trying to be real
Last edited by detoxking; 07-09-2011 at 15:06.
From swims experience yes u can sublument methodone with Heroin but it all depends on your M dose and when you take it. if you want the heroin to be more effective try to go 36-48 hrs with out your M dose, the herion will be more effective due to the less methodone that in swims sistim because of the M's blocking effect on opiates, so you don't need and obcine amount of herion to overcome methadone's blocking effect, just a note if swim was to use a large amount of heroin wile on MMTP swims dose will soon be less effective do to increasing amount of herion because heroin will raise your tolerance to the M rapidly
I may have got the wrong end of the stick here but I suspect that your post is not so much about using Methadone and heroin but more about what you should do with regards to your relationship. I appreciate that you have put a lot of time and effort into it and have no doubt that you love your bf very much, however, now I think, is the time to be strong. I firmly believe, as has been mentioned before, that your bf does not really want to stop and, as much as you want to believe he loves you, I suspect heroin comes first. I do know how difficult it would be to end the relationship, particularly as you live together, but I feel that this could well be your only option. Continuing as you are is only enabling him to continue his behaviour and he has learnt that it is acceptable for him to behave like this. Often with drug users the only way to help them is "tough love" as they call it. Kick him out or leave yourself, give him a firm timetable of what you expect from him, if he truly loves you above everything else then he will have no choice to accept your terms. However you must prepare yourself for the fact that he loves the gear more than you and the only thing worse than staying in a dead end relationship for 2 years is staying in it for 2 years and a day.
You have some important decisions to make and will most definitely need the support of family and/or close friends. Believe me I truly appreciate how very difficult it will be but you need to free yourself from your suspicion or soon you will find it difficult to trust.
All my wishes go out to you, be strong, be selfish, the ability to live a glorious life is within your grasp, the only person in your way is yourself.xx
As users drop down from high methadone doses to 30-60mg then it's possible to still use Heroin, even normally. Chances are, as he has dropped down the cravings have came back and he's back on the gear.
Be honest, upfront with him about this. Ask when he started, etc and he should be able to go upwards with his dose and be back where he was.
as to the bupe - he needs to drop very low 20-30mg and go into proper wd's 48hr-72hr as when the bupe kicks in it basically says "right all out NOW" and boots heroin/methadone very fast out his system - I had this exp. too it was dreadful.
My advice is increase the 'done and see if that works. If he does jump to bupe then 8/10mg+ has a blockade effect so using heroin ontop is very difficult.
My fall down junkie friend is on a dose of 120ml of methadone, and uses on occasion IV doses of .2 to .4 p...(after a NA program was worked and sober living situation use decreased greatly) and he states that at a dose of 120ml there is little effect other than a rush and slight feeling of lethargy. Be it doses immediately after drinking the methadone or 12 - 14 hrs post dose the effect at this high dose *a dose my fall down junkie friend considers to be high* is nil (other than the initial rush as stated previously)
What do you other swimmers think of a dose of 120ml... is this extreme or standard as far as MMT goes?
Doing heroin while taking methadone is a waste of money. The heroin will have littke to no affect, depending on how high methadone dose is. Anything over about 30mg of methadone a day, will hinder other opiates from working
I used heroin and methadone daily for donkeys years, I didn't feel much from the heroin but I still used it to come down off crack. Even though it physically didn't do much mentally it sorted me out and took away the cravings. The main problem is your habit can go through the roof and when it's time to quit its twice as hard.
When you first got with him and found out he was ex heroin user and on methadone did you think this was a possibility?
If you did, what did you foresee yourself doing? Leaving or helping him?
In my experience if you suspect someone's using then they probably are, if it were me I'd either leave or get tough, demand explanations of where he's been after work, ask him to explain the money/bank problems if the answers seem like bullshit then tell him you think he's full of shit. Don't just let him lie to you and take you for a mug, he's stopped asking you for money but stopped paying his way so I assume your paying it for him, so IF that is true your funding his drug use.
How long you been together?
It's an old thread but the situation is not uncommon so may be of interest to others (the relation bit, I'll get on to the other).
With all my compassion and hope for relationships to work out I would agree with some of the above but take a different approach. I think if you are suspecting him, and that behaviour does sound familiar, then it is quite likely. But understand it may be complicated in his head - as well as trying to hold down a relationship and deal with cravings he's probably got the guilt of being deceptive and fustrated at his perceived weakness in quitting. I wouldn't dramatically confront him - he'll go into defensive mode (and that for a junkie tends to go to auto lie mode whether you want to or not), nor just ignore the issue and let it eat away with you.
Instead make the best of the beauty a relationship can bring and your close knowledge of this person. Bring it up, but gently. Make it clear your not accusing anything, looking for an argument or judging in anyway. A long term good relationship should be way past all that. But make it very clear your his partner and you care, you want to talk openly and frankly about what's going on and the best way you can support him. In your own time you may then think more about if you still really want this.. But so many people are isolated and lack the rare support that an intimate relationship can offer.
RE: Meth and heroin I do them both often and It's simply a bad idea. Your risk of OD is higher, you're doing the opposite to tackling your problem - youre meant to be on meth to get clean not increase your opiate consumption, it is a a waste as the heroin effects are dulled. So you take a load more to try feel some kind of high and just end up sleeping, with extra fucked arms and a worse addiction. I made a big mistake getting into the habbit of doing this, then missed my meth script appointment and ran out of money at the same time = double cold turkey I don't know about others, but I have regular meetings and piss tests to get the meth but if theyre not clean you have to stick to daily supervised consumption and ultimately they stop bothering to want to help you. All these problems - and you get fuck all from it. But I still end up doing it right?
I'd really appreciate some advice myself though. I've been on meth for around 4-5 weeks and now up to 60ml. I'm kinda worried that's a bit high and it could make me more ill? I've been ill since taking the higher douses. And I know nothing about the next stages.. I've moved away so just sticking to the script and cracking on with life. Realistically how long until I'm clean and WD free? What is the journey ahead going to be like? And what is this I've heard about moving to subutex at some point - is that normal and what like? Plus any other general early stages of recovery onwards advice would help me.. Other than valium (which they do also test for) what can I take to help me out?
While this thread has been well answered by now, I just wanted to offer the slight addition of my experience.
First off - everything others have said is true. Yes, you can use heroin on top of methadone. It's less effective and more dangerous, and in an ideal situation you won't feel the "high" from it at all, but not all situations are ideal, and the fact it is less effective on methadone is precisely what makes it more dangerous... more is needed to achieve a high, and the lack of a high throws off the way one would ordinarily gauge "how strong their shit is." What's more, spending time on methadone does keep your general tolerance to opioids up, but not all opioids are created equal, some are more similar to each other than others, and even if you're tolerant to methadone, your tolerance to heroin can diminish over the time you're taking methadone only, meaning a return to heroin can be underestimated by someone who's still taking methadone every day.
But why I wanted to respond was basically because of my personal scenario. I started dating my current girlfriend several years ago, and she'd known long before that I was a heavy heroin addict for years and years. When we started dating I'd only been clean a few months. I stayed that way as long as I could but eventually I relapsed, and after enough time of it slowly escalating and getting out of hand, she of course caught wise, and I was forced to fess up. We broke up and that could very well have been the end of the relationship.
However, I'd already been looking into methadone before the shit hit the fan, in a "too little too late" style bid to prevent said shit from hitting said fan, and so, while we did break up and dissolve the living situation we'd shared together, I did wind up getting on methadone right about that time, and because I'd been self-motivated to do it anyway, and not just as a reaction to losing my girlfriend, I continued on with it for my own sake... and she wound up noticing that my life was rapidly repairing itself once I got on the program (I'd been all too willing to get off opiates, and otherwise wanting a stabler life, but was unable to make any clean time last, for the sake of its physical difficulty... maintenance is a good option for that attitude/predicament). Long story short, we got back together, and now, months later, we are still, and our relationship is honestly stronger than it's ever been.
My point in sharing is this... if I'd tried methadone earlier in my addiction, when I wasn't completely sick and tired of the runaround of dependence, I don't think it would have worked for me. I think I'd have just used it as a free morning fix, and would still have been trying to duck and weave around their drug tests and scrutiny (which it seems godawful easy to do, should you wish, at most clinics) so I could keep getting high and fucking around and etc. Thankfully, I always had the wherewithal to not get on methadone back when I felt that way, knowing it was a serious, long term option, and I wasn't serious about it yet.
...but when I did do it, I was ready to get off heroin, and pursue a stabler life, and to take that seriously and make a long-term effort of it. In that context, it's been a dream, and I'm nothing but glad for it - I've been on it for several months, and I haven't used any dope in several months. I'm happy, stable, working, all that good shit, and at times I could almost forget I'm on anything at all... I only notice by what's not there - no cravings, no undue anxiety, no incessant inner monologue disconnecting me from the outside world and weaving me into my head... it's what I imagine "sober" feels like if you're an actual "normal person."
While I don't believe I'm actually on a full blocking dose of methadone (tho I'm not about to test it), I don't want to go up any higher, because this is sufficient for me and I don't intend to mess with what's working for me. Even if it's not a full blocking dose, it's enough to make me comfortable, enough that I don't want to use other opiates.
The idea of using heroin on top of my methadone is incomprehensible to me, for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that I value my methadone script too much to risk being kicked off for using dope one time too many (they don't just boot you automatically for a relapse - they know who they're dealing with, after all - but if they get the sense you're not even trying to stop using dope, and you're just making assholes of em and using them for a free fix in the morning and that's it, well, eventually they will boot you for that).... not to mention, I don't have any temptation to use dope anyway. I already feel good. I don't feel like I'm high on dope, but I feel like whatever that thing was that made me want to get high on dope, it's addressed anyway, I don't know how. But I do know the methadone works to help me stay clean and productive and happy. And I can't imagine using dope on it, at this point in time, for any reason.
In general, it's my assessment that if you really cared to stop using heroin, you could do it. It could be done cold turkey if you are REALLY motivated (like if you have strong morals against the idea of being dependent on a substance in and of itself - myself, I don't have that), but I mean, if you're already on methadone, you really should be able to stop, if you actually want to. On methadone, you don't even have to want to stop very hard! It will still be an option to you even if you only wanna quit dope the slightest little bit. If the dose is too low to "hold" you, there's no reason to use heroin when you can just have them raise your dose until it DOES "hold" you. Heroin won't even work half as well, so I hardly see the incentive there as well.
Long story short - from my own experience (and it may very well be flawed - we all have different psychological compulsions and mine are not the same as your boyfriend's - tho these can be every bit as powerful as physical compulsions such as hunger and fatigue), it doesn't sound like this guy wants to quit, not even a little. Mistakes are made, shit does happen, so on and so forth, but ultimately, if you can't stop using heroin while you're on methadone, I'm forced to believe it's more cus you don't WANT to stop than anything. Sorry to break it to you like that. This is my personal experience talking, and I don't mean to speak for anyone else, even if I speak in the second person and say "you" about certain things. It's just my experience, but if you were to ask me, I'd say this guy doesn't sound very serious about the relationship or about quitting heroin at all.
I don't know for certain if this has been mentioned, but here goes.
My suspicion is that he has ditched the Methadone and gone back to his heroin habit. Using the two substances in combination with one another are not that compatible.
I used Methadone for chronic pain @ 30 mg's, then 40 mg's per day, plus the usage of Halcion (triazolam} @ 4 mg's per day. It is a sleep aid with an extremely short half life. Even though it helped my pain at first, it turned on me violently. Even though I was dosing every 3 hours @ 0.5 mg's per dose, anxiety, panic attacks, sweats and the whole ten yards of withdrawal would descend upon me after 1 to 2 hours of dosing. That dosage is now considered 16 times the recommended dosage for short term insomnia in my country. On top of the Methadone and Halcion, I started to drink alcohol with intensity. I was drinking 52ounces of vodka each day plus an unlimited amount of beer.
Needless to say, that ended in disaster. I ended up in the hospital for 17 days just to deal with the extreme withdrawal symptoms. The Doctor told me that I was lucky to not have met my maker...I suppose in a Heath Ledger sort of style.
Upon alcohol and Halcion sobriety, the pain clinic switched me to MS Contin (sustained release) @ 360 mg's plus 120 mg's of oxycodone per day for breakthrough pain. 23 years later and I have had enough. Just 3 weeks later and I have managed to quickly taper my dosage to 10 mg's of oxycodone per day. My hand was never forced into this. So, it can be done if the addict wants it badly enough.
Heroin and methadone are completely compatible. A dope friends best friend is a stash of methadone when he can't score or is sick.
Even taking methadone daily you can get high on top. No matter the dose a fat enough shot will take effect. Maintenance is the best thing for someone that can't stop shooting since it stops you from getting sick, and offers a little protection to od.
I would just drug test him. If he doesn't agree to pee on the spot, he is using.
Advice is to let him go for a bit. He might clean up eventually. Waste of time to be with someone in this state. If he pisses clean, then you have no worries.