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FeelingGraph1.jpgHere are a couple of graphs as attachments that help swim visualize how long Suboxone will stay in swims system,also helps to see how long this drug will linger and build up in ones body(continuing to block physical effects of opiates).
And there is a "feeling good" comparison chart that is there for swiy to interpret.Hope this can help some better understand how this drug functions,and provide swiy more info to help in swiy's decision to use this drug for detox or maintenance.
EDIT : Swim also came across this chart and it might be beneficial to swiy if they find themselves on Suboxone for maintenance and would like to figure out a taper plan on their own.....(swim didn't create this this,and doesn't know who did, so use it at swiy own discretion) Here is a link......http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...QD9_xFJdixXENg
Also,It has been said that half-life's are not linear,they are a exponential decay function........
Last edited by thebige; 12-12-2009 at 18:23.
Reason: Adding spreadsheet - although I've no idea how to use it myself!
swim and her doctor worked out how much bupe was left in her system when she commenced a day of low dosage naltrexone weaning (onto), and it worked out to be approx 10mg.
interestingly enough swim didnt have any horrific reaction to it, however it should be noted that she had promethazine injection in her butt that day, clonidine, and 10mg temazepam every few hours. in a nutshell she was bombed and slept all day and had to be woken for her dosing.
swim wonders if her old specialist would be happy to divulge her treatment plan to other doctors in the US and UK.
Thanks for the information thebige. I have written about how to do these kind of calculations somewhere ("screaming in the night air" thread probably, or maybe on the wiki on half-life), but I think this would make a good thread, as it's useful for people to understand how drugs with long half-lives take some time to approach a steady-state [I mean here steady-state within the dynamic of daily rises and falls in drug concentration] in the body. I've got a lot of moderator duties at the moment, but once Ilsa and I have cleaned up R&A, if I don't remember, anyone interested could drop me a note.
I have to take issue with the last graph however (the mood spectrum one). The idea that buprenorphine puts one smack bang in the middle of the and then holds one there seems like nothing more than idle propoganda. The other two are simply dealing with half-lives, and as such are, insofar as we are dealing with first-order elimination kinetics, i.e. insofar as it is accurate to talk about half-lives (not all drugs have elimination profiles that yield a consistent half-life across the dosing range), are no more than mathematics, and thus valid.
Ha, I'm good! I just checked what NAABT (to whom the mood spectrum graph is copywrite) and it stands for National Alliance of Advocates for Buprenorphine Treatment. So, perhaps it's not surprise that burpenorphine comes out as nearly (better than?!) perfect. Maybe I'm just a cynic! lol.
Last edited by Dickon; 07-06-2009 at 09:41.
Reason: I can't do footnotes on posts.
Hey Dickon,thebige has number dyslexia(strangely enough his brother,11 years older,has dyslexia with words)......so any graph that can save him from number calculations in his head,is a godsend! Swim also had a problem with the "perceived feeling" graph.......
If you notice it only plays out for 24 hours,and swim feels that the perfect stable line would start to drop off fairly quickly if the graph continued......AND for people on long term maintenance,that line may drop off allot sooner than 24 hours as the months progress.Swim has had experience with Suboxone used for very rapid detox,many times,3-4 days with very minor withdrawal symptoms(almost laughable compared to pulling hard-core cold turkey)Psychologicaly you are often in a better state to deal with the forthcoming post acute withdrawal stage because 1.you feel glad you walked away from opiate withdrawal fairly unscathed 2.you can use that time to change your method of thinking,to dealing with reality on its terms,Swim guesses you could say.
Anyway about the graph........swim feels (taking it for what it is) it would be a good tool to show someone that is stuck in "the game"....what they might expect to feel if they decide to make the switch to this drug instead of staying on a opiate merry-go-round as it has been described.And for that swim will give it some validity.
On a side note:Swim has experimented with this substance in depth and has found allot of the guidelines and "facts" to be untrue.Swim also feels that there is so much misunderstanding about this drug,it is not utilized to it fullest potential by the medical comunity........thats just what swim feels..........
Last edited by thebige; 07-06-2009 at 17:05.
Great information Bige. My friend has found that sub seems to work best for him at doses below 4 mgs and down as low as 1 mg per day.
This is after abuse of oxycontin and vicodin at doses of oxy @ 400-600 mgs per day and vicodin @ 200-500 mgs per day.
If Dave starts sub 12-16 hrs after his last dose of opiates it seems to work ok. He has done this a number of times, as has started as high as 16mgs sub, which made him feel worse than CT wds. For some reason low doses of sub seem to hold the worst wds at bay, and he can find some normality easier than at higher dosages.Also it seems to work best insufflated, go figure.
Yes Rok,the "less is more theory" seems to prove itself over and over again......(although without any valid research reports)....
Some people believe at lower does the Bupe takes hold/but the blocker seems unable to at low to very low dose.......and it also cut half-life times down and swim believes intranasal administration can cut those times down even more.....
Some people do report recreational effects to be achieved with better results,at very low dose ,intranasalely.........
Bige posted the Q. about if there were any swimmers out there that use Suboxone intranaseley.....but alas no responses.......guess there might be none....who knows,as always fight the good fight Rok my man........
man these graphs and spreadsheet are great thank you very much! i'm most interested in the 11 day half-life graph...is there any link or something to that graph's spreadsheet...or is the formula available so i could replicate it myself and plug in the daily amt. i take?
Id like to put in a differnt initial value (12mgs) for day 1....but as i progress Day2, 3, 4, plug in lesser values eventually leading to 0 each day. This way i can accuratley see how long it will take for the suboxone to be basically half-lifed to nearly nothing...or low enough that its basically 100% ineffective against blocking opiates, binding to receptors...ect.
The spreadsheet is awesome but unfortentley it seems to be missing 1 key element. This element would account for the combined value of previous doses' half-life amounts left in the system and add(+) them to whatever daily dose is plugged in for that particular day....which would give a value that tells exactly how much is in you at any given day for everyone's own suboxone doseage schedule. (or so i think)
If i could find that the countless hours i've spent researching for answers related to this drug would alll be worth it.
After viewing them, the information looks amazingly helpful and very informative. Especially for SWIM, who recently started his Suboxone regiment(yesterday,in fact).
The only thing that I could see, is that the graphs are made/published by NAABT, which, like Dickon suggested, could lead to the information to be biased. The Perceived Feeling graph just seems to good to be true with out a LITTLE of the information being biased. Anyone else get what I'm saying?
I just think that the info is good, and does have some(if not ALOT) of truth to it. But knowing that they were put on a website to people trying to market Buprenorphine.
How are these half-life numbers affected through different routes of administration? For example, IV buprenorphine is reported to have a shorter duration of effect than sublingual buprenorphine, despite the much lower bioavailability. Does it therefore get processed out more quickly?
I am currently on suboxone strips at 16 mg per day for the past six months. Occasionally, a friend I have will throw me ten or so subutex. The subutex, I use intranasally and if I wait 36 hours after my last dose of 16 mg and insufflate 6-8mg of tex then I get a stupendous rush, not just a "glow"; but, then even If I wait another 36 hours after insufflation, I do not get the same effect. Also, after I insufflate the tex for a few days and then wait 24-36 hours and take my 16mg of suboxone strips sublingually, I get the rush again. This molecule is extremely complicated and I am a last year Biomedical science student (Organic/Biochemistry/physiology/mathematics/physics), and I have even been looking at my schools library of studies on this molecule and the stats are across the board all over. I do know, not from my experience but from a friend, that injection of the buprenorphine does lower the half life and he has to dose more frequently accordingly. It is my belief that why the "less is more theory" holds true is that you are getting more norbupe this way. On the other hand, in my personal experience I can only get a rush if I wait until withdrawal kicks in and take 16mg sublingual or 6-8mg intranasally. Basically I have seen the point at which withdrawal symptoms occur is around 24-42 hours sublingually and 20-36 hours intranasally. So, by this data, the conclusion would be that the ROA of bupe does affect the half-life, but not by much. I know that is a pretty weak conclusion, considering I am a scientist, but like I said before, this drug is all over the board different experience for everyone. However the definitive conlucsion that can be made, as shown in the graphs appropriately, is that the longer you have been on bupe the greater your enzyme(P-450), which degrades the bupe, will have a greater concentration in your liver and, hence, will cause a lower half life. In short, the longer you have been on bupe, the shorter the half life because your body can get rid of it faster. This is the same mechanism in all opiods and Benzos which cause tolerance, you need more because your body compensates by increasing what it needs to rid the drugs of your system. So overall, no definitive conclusion, though the given graphs do pretty much tell you, in general, what you need to know about bupe half-life. Hope this helps-j
So not self incriminating I will make clear that I am a recovering addict, and am prescribed suboxone 8mg strips 1/day. Just as an example as to how everyones body metabolizes differently and that the half life of suboxone differs per individual--- I took half of an 8mg strip Tuesday 8am, today being Sunday, I am still 100%, no cravings, no usage, and no need to redose. I was originally confused as to why I was prescribed to take it on a daily basis, when in fact I don't start feeling any signs of withdrawal until 7-9 days after dosing with a strip, but I guess this is just a prime example of this drug effecting everyone differently. For reference of those who need it, before staring suboxone, only4 weeks ago, I was on h, and had built up such a strong tolerance that I needed a a bun/ day to sustain, after 2.5years of use. My doc says if I continue on the path im following, I may only need a couple more weeks of the strips. Wisha me luck!
The shortened half-life referred to in the medical studies and medication handouts (mean 2.2 hours) refers to doses under 2 mg., mostly doses in the mcg. range. This is different because there is not enough bupe in that small of a dose to fully saturate the receptors like there is in doses above the mcg. range. In doses greater than 1-2 mg., the half life remains the same whether it's 2 mg. or 16 mgs. There is enough bupe in doses that high to fully saturate the receptor sites and block opiates from being able to bind. Plus, when discussing Suboxone as opposed to Subutex, there is also the factor of Naloxone to consider on top of the Bupe.
So, to sum it up, in doses above 2 mgs., regardless of ROA, the half-life remains the same....approx. 37 hours. That means if one dosed 2 mg, no matter ROA, the amount of bupe/Naloxone still active in the body 37 hours later would be 1mg. Bupe/.5 mgs. of Naloxone. Remember, that is REGARDLESS of ROA.
I'm sorry to come off sounding condescending but I have seen this question so many times and have YET to see anyone answer it correctly. I'm also sorry for reviving an old thread but in the interest of harm reduction, I felt it was necessary for anyone else who came across this thread to have the correct information instead of just shooting bag after bag and having the H not work, a waste of money, but also possibly overdose from the respiratory depressant qualities of the drugs while trying to achieve the high they are looking for. Save your dope man, it's a waste of money to even bother until at least the 24 hour mark. 36 is better but I have seen someone catch a good rush after only 18 hours. Even then it took a higher dose than normal.
Your mileage may vary slightly, but only VERY slightly. Please be safe and play smart.