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Opinions - 2C's ... potential for bad trips

Discussion in 'Phenethylamines' started by roquet, May 13, 2007.

  1. roquet

    roquet Newbie

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    Would it be fair to say 2C... chemicals have less potential for bad trips compared to LSD and mushrooms?

    Swim read somewhere here that 2Cs don't produce ego-death, which swim thinks had a lot to do with his countless bad trips on acid and shrooms. (Ego-death being mistaken for actual death.) Whereas he never had a bad experience on MDMA many times.

    The only real RC swim has taken is 2C-B, years ago, which at the time he thought was very similar to acid but less intense and less profound. But he only did it once and only one pill (strength unknown) so maybe more would have been different.

    Swim likes the idea of 2c-e or 2c-t-7 being visually very active but impossible (well, unlikely) to have a bad trip on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  2. Nacumen

    Nacumen Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Still possible. SWIM knows from personal experience that 2C's can produce a 'sensory overload' of sorts, which is something akin to the entire world shattering and being shot into your eyes, ears, and mind. From what I can tell, this typically only happens while alone and in the dark during the come-up while listening to music, is rare and doesn't happen for everyone.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2007
  3. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Bad trips are caused by both the mental set of a person, and by environmental factors (set & setting). The mental set can be bad due to a fleeting mood one is going through, or by underlying psychological factors such as unresolved material from the unconscious. The later instance is more common in younger people - but quite possible in fully grown adults as well. Problems with setting should be obvious to most people - bad choice in music. Noisy, crowded clubs, interruptions by unwanted people, etc.

    Whether it's from a 2-C or a tryptamine-based psychedelic, a bad trip is possible to have regardless of the molecular details. Full-blown psychotic-reactions requiring counciling have been seen with mescaline (a 2-C forerunner) as well as with psilocybin and derivatives. The myth that 2-C's are less likely to produce such is just that - a myth.

    People saying they don't/won't cause such are spreading bad disinformation. ALL of these substances must be approached with full respect and knowledge. Knowing yourself will help prevent a bad trip. An attitude of "It's just 2-CI, dude!" will invite one.
     
  4. rxbandit

    rxbandit Gold Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    In swims experience his friend who is on Prozac has exhibited horrific headaches and sickness on 2c-b twice. swim was under the impression SSRI's just made the trip less intense but thinks that may only apply to tryptamines.

    Has anyone else observed a similiar contradiction. SSRI's + 2c's = bad trip ?
     
  5. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    2-C's act on dopamine receptors more so than tryptamines. SSRI's do likewise. So you may well be onto something. Please get more info on this if possible.
     
  6. samadhi_smiles

    samadhi_smiles Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    nagognog, do you have a reference for your claim that 2C's act on dopamine receptors more than tryptamines? I've never heard that. I have heard theories that some 2Cs (2CT7 and possibly 2CE) have a mixed profile in their action (ie agonist as well as serotonin releasers).

    I've never heard the dopamine thing and would be very curious. One more reason for SWIM to abandon phens then.
     
  7. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    While I don't currently have the (scarce) med. references - it doesn't take a Phd in chemistry or pshysiology to see why. They resemble both serotonin as well as amphetamine (dopamine) compounds. Same with mescaline. Granted the higher bodyload of these substances can help elicit a tense, unpleasant reaction in people - the topic is whether a 2-Cx can induce this. My point is YES. They can. I'm sure the bodyload is of no help in folks with baggage needing work upon.

    It amazes me (and pisses me off) that people continue to spread the rumor that 2-C's are like MDMA and won't cause any harm. I reiterate - these are full-scale psychedelics. The difference between these and, say, LSD regards a Bad Trip is small indeed. Approach with respect and caution.

    I'll add this. I have have seen more people freak-out on Peyote than I have on LSD. I could name occasions when my home was over-run with casualties from psychedelics. Peyote - though far scarer than LSD - won the prize. Those who had very bad times on (known to be) LSD were fewer though the prevalence of LSD was much greater. The wired-effect of the mescaline made the emotional turmoil more likely to bring about "bad trips." These molecules require an understanding of one's self. Please don't regard these as toys. They are as real as you.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2007
  8. roquet

    roquet Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Obviously set and setting are very important but so is the chemical itself and the doseage. MDMA is far less likely to produce a bad trip than LSD or shrooms, I think most people would agree. Can the same generalisation be made about 2Cs? Good point about mescaline, but not suprising as it sounds very similar to LSD and shrooms.

    What prompted swim's question was reading on this forum that 2Cs don't seem to bring about ego-death while still (swim is thinking of 2c-t-7 and 2c-e in particular) producing very strong visual effects.
     
  9. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    MDMA is NOT a psychedelic drug. It is an entactogenic and, thereby, utterly different. To place MDMA and 2-C's into the same conversation is equivalent to comparing apples & oranges. There is no common ground - aside from both are round and a fruit. Completely different flavor.
     
  10. samadhi_smiles

    samadhi_smiles Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    ^^^ You just compared 2Cs to amphetamine like compounds (of which MDMA is one) in order to theorize possible interaction with dopamine system. Not only do I not think your theory on dopamine interaction is sound (on the basis of molecular structure), but I also disagree with the fact that one cannot compare psychedelic properties of MDMA and 2Cx (even if MDMA is not a proper psychedelic).

    Here's one comparison that SWIM has observed: the euphoria on 2CE resembles the euphoria on MDxx (suggesting 2CE acts as a (weak) serotonin releaser).
     
  11. joechip666

    joechip666 Titanium Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    SWIY actually finds 2C-E to be euphoric???

    SWIM considers 2C-I to be mildly euphoric and can catch a glimpse of euphoria with 2C-T-21 but can't imagine that anyone would consider 2C-E to have a similar emotional effect to MDxx.

    Edit: Actually SWIM can imagine someone considering 2C-E euphoric - on an abstract intellectual level - just not on a level where it in any way "resembles" the euphoria of MDxx.
     
  12. samadhi_smiles

    samadhi_smiles Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Yes, 2CE has a very strong euphoric push at high dosages. SWIM has also found rectal admin to be a very euphoric route (owing to the spike in peak plasma levels probably). SWIM wouldn't be surprised if it was found later to have serotonin releasing properties.
     
  13. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Most of the serotonin in a person is found in the G.I. tract. So such a release could prove interesting. But I wouldn't suggest playing with the 2-C's rectally any more than snorting these. Best to approach with caution.
     
  14. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    If you think that there is no potential in 2C-E or 2C-T-7 for bad trips, you have not spent enough time reading trip reports.
     
  15. rxbandit

    rxbandit Gold Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Swim has trip sat many an Ape and can confirm that although not the most common occourence, he has observed a few bad trips. A few swim attributes to prozac being in the brain but swim has seen others have horrifying revelations and burst into a manic rage or tears.

    And about the serotonin release question; I thought any pyschedelic that induced visual distortion like the commone phenethylamines and tryptamines almost all effect the 5-HT subreceptor 2 or 3. I remember reading an article saying DOI, DOB and DOM all did, maybe my assumption is a bit mislead.

    Personally I think its possible for someone to have a bad experience with any drug. swim knows people who have had horrible experiences with appropriate doses of morphine as well as just about everything else. The body is very complex and the brain is somewhat unpredictable. To argue about chemical similiaritys is a bit tedious, considering a significant amount of drugs share the phenthylamine molecule, the benzene ring and a close structure to dopamine. The slight differences could cause any chemical to have a completely different action to its cousin.

    On the 2c's and ego death. swim thinks that the 2c' compounds seem to focus your mind on your enviroment around you; whereas tryptamines focus your mind more introspectively. My theory is its easier to find discourse in your own mind, due to conflicting morals, beliefs and behaviors. while drugs like the 2c's focus your mind outward; The only time swim has seen someone have a bad trip on a 2c compound is when there beliefs about their enviroment our heavily challenged which has implications on the identity they have assumed. Bad trips are possible on both but i think the two different types of chemicals just focus the brain to difference "frequencies"
     
  16. rxbandit

    rxbandit Gold Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    For Nanogog:

    From WikiP:
    DOI has a similiarity in action to 2c-i, so would it be safe to assume the neurologoical action would be similiar. Then would it be sound to assume 2c-b shares similiar pharmacological action as 2c-i.

    Again, from WikiP
    If an SSRI like prozac downregulates the 5-HT2a receptor site and the 2c-b bound to the 5-HT2b and 5-HT2c sites wouldnt it make it hard for the brain to deal with the surge of serotonin provided by a serotonin agonist?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2010
  17. samadhi_smiles

    samadhi_smiles Newbie

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Yes, but just because a chemical is agonist at HT2 receptors does not mean it does not have other action as its overall profile. Take MDMA, for example, its main property is that it forces more serotonin into the synapse (thus the serotonin rush associated with it), but it also blocks the uptake of serotonin and it also binds (with weak affinity) to HT receptors. Its action is three parts.

    There's no reason to think that some of these 2Cs (especially the ones capable of strong euphoric pushes) are not similar, with multi-action profiles.

    There's simply not enough (if any for some of these chems) research done.
     
  18. rxbandit

    rxbandit Gold Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    "The results(of the study of qouting http://www.mdma.net/5-ht2/receptors.html) show that 5-HT(2A) and 5-HT(1B/1D) receptors play a facilitatory role in mediating the stimulant effect of MDMA, whereas 5-HT(2C) receptors are inhibitory. Activation of 5-HT(2C) receptors also contributes to the deficit in operant responding. Multiple 5-HT receptor sub-types appear to contribute to the behavioural effects of MDMA. "

    It looks like both substances may derrive some of their euphoria from being an agonist of the 5-HT2a receptor. swim agree that the 2C's and MDMA have somewhat of a similiar body buzz. They are often compared so it is interesting to see they have a similiar profile in action at least partially. It seems as if no one is wrong persay, just different perspectives have taken diffferent looks.

    Effect wise they are still very different however. Two animals might be quite alike genetically but small variations make them exhibit very different behaviors.
     
  19. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Indeed. As is exemplified by either the idiots or charlatans who offered 2-CI as a replacement for MDMA some time back. Kids expecting something akin to the peace & calm centering effect of MDMA found themselves in a full-scale psychedelic trip. That, by itself, would be enough to trigger a bad experience.
     
  20. QGdoxl

    QGdoxl Gold Member

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    Re: 2C... potential for bad trips

    Actually that is exactly how swim got in to RC's. A friend of his that owed him a few bucks offered to give swim 4 hits of E he had obtained from a close by large city. Swim who only had experienced reg street drugs from his smaller town jumped at the chance to see what the boys in the big city are eating.

    1 pill consumed, normal does for swim and his g/f. About +1.5h or so swim was watching a movie that he didn;t remember being so trippy, body buzz was not so different and there was definatly some euphoria. Maybe not quite waht mdma would be but there for sure. Then swims g/f asks him if he is "seeing anything" so swim takes the attention off the tv and looks around the room and colors are changing and the door bent right over like someone trying to touch their toes.

    since then all 2c-i have been purchased from online suppliers and the trip is never the like that first night. Swim believes there must have been mdma in the pills but after id'ing the pills and all reports came back as 16mg 2c-i and nothing but, swim starts to believe in placebo more and more.

    Sorry back on topic here swim has never had a bad trip on LSD and only bad trip ever on mushrooms was his first time with anything other than just some pot, bad trip blamed on the fact that swim had no idea what to expect and just got freaked out by this strange new feeling. Since the 1st bad trip on muchies the ONLY bad trips swim have had are on 2c-x's and everyone of them can be blames on set and setting except one 25mg 2c-e trip where things just became too intense and it wasn't a bad trip per se but more of a very introspective, sensory overload slap in the face, where swim spent the rest of this trip lying in bed trying to catch a grip on things. So not soo bad but not what he had planned for the night anywayz.

    I think swim is saying there is always room for things to go wrong. Sometimes you can ground them and still do ok for the night but just cause your substance may be a 2c or mdXX don't discount the fact that something can go wrong. weather it be set and setting, mindset, bodyload, or just plain too much. There is no drug where there is no possibility of a bad trip in swims opinion. He has seen people freaked out on everything from pot to benzo's to painkillers not just psychadelics.

    crap that may have been 4 cents