3rd generation party pills

Discussion in 'Herbal Ecstasy' started by prince, Nov 7, 2006.

  1. prince

    prince Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    0
    Messages:
    7
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    I have been poking around the subject of 3rd generation (non bzp containing) party pills.Has any SWIM come across anything good?One of the main contendors has the commen (and therefore SWIM assumes primarily active) ingrediant piperine (NOT PIPERAZINE) in all of its many products . Does any SWIM know of piperine? Is it maybe another black pepper extract?
     
  2. AntiAimer

    AntiAimer Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    86
    Messages:
    371
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Piperine (C17H19NO3) is the alkaloid responsible for much of the taste and smell of black pepper. It has also been used in some forms of traditional medicine and as an insecticide.
    Piperine has been found to inhibit human P-glycoprotein and CYP3A4, enzymes important for the metabolism and transport of xenobiotics and metabolites (PMID 12130727). In animal studies, piperine also inhibited other enzymes important in drug metabolism (PMID 3917507, PMID 8347144).
    Due to its effects on drug metabolism, piperine should be taken cautiously (if at all) by individuals taking other medications.

    Code:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piperine
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2006
  3. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    3,376
    Messages:
    3,273
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    from U.S.A.
    ^ That's pretty much what I was about to post. Not something to be messed with without first researching its possible interactions with the many other ingredients in the product. I found this link through the wiki entry which I found interesting:

    http://1-piperoylpiperidine.tripod.com

    I also supect that piperine is sometimes used as a subterfuge marketing "ingredient" (i.e. it's really BZP).
     
  4. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

    Reputation Points:
    14,178
    Messages:
    38,479
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    117 y/o from The Netherlands
    Piperine has no effect on the CNS. It is used to increase uptake of ingredients. The only reason it is listed as an ingredient is to confuse governments into thinking party pills are herbal. The original scheme was the story that piperazines are derivatives of the pepper plant. Some party pills also listed pepper extract on their ingredient list.
     
  5. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,936
    Messages:
    7,017
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Last Analysis Department: A 'piperazine' is organic chemistry-speak for a nitrogen on a benzyl ring. I won't go further - other than to say it has as much to do with Pepper as Mustard has to do with a World War One poison gas.

    Read: No Relation.
     
  6. Thirdedge

    Thirdedge Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,067
    Messages:
    952
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    from earth
    It would appear these new pills are definetly BZP free. They apparently contain substances that are normally only active when injected, with the addition of something else (piperine perhaps?) to make them orally active.

    Heres what the manufacture states: (Note: I have edited out all company references and product names so this doesn,t read like a promotional for this manufacturer, I hope it still reads ok, this could be all hype but is interesting nonetheless)

    An interview with Dr ****** (Creator Gen3)



    So ****** ******, Can you tell us a little about the new Gen3 range?



    At the ****** *********** laboratory we are always striving to improve on what we have and to live up to our reputation for always being 1 step ahead of everyone else. Other companies are currently putting out BZP free formulas that have been quickly thrown together in order to take advantage of the regulatory situation in the U.K these products rely heavily on caffeine are no more effective than a strong cup of espresso coffee. ****** *********** is very proud of our current reputation for having the strongest, cleanest pills available and would never put out anything that did not meet the high standards that we set our selves, our new Gen3 range is no exception.




    How did you come up with your new formulas?




    Our teams of chemists and human lab rats (Got to give it up for our lab rats, no animals harmed) have been rigorously extracting, blending and testing mixture after mixture of herbal ingredients many of which are extremely rare in order to come up with our new Gen3 range.




    The goal was to come up with a range of products that could be used as safe alternatives to many of the commonly used drugs in society today while containing no materials of a synthetic nature that could easily be regulated by government at the drop of a hat. Our second but equally important objective was to improve on both our classic and hardcore range and we believe we have done just that.




    Come on now ** ******. There are hundreds of herbal energy formulas out there that also use herbal blends and are not anywhere near as effective as BZP based party pills. What makes your so different?




    I’m glad you asked we approached the problem from a completely different angle. Instead of trying to through a bunch of chemicals together that are well known for there psychoactive properties when ingested we focused on another group of much more potent neurotransmitters that have been documented to have very pronounced effects when injected but due to the delicate nature of the molecules involved can not pass through the stomach acids unaltered and therefore have no effect when taken orally.




    So are you saying that we need to inject the pills to get high?




    No of course not we would have included a syringe if that were the case (Just Kidding). We knew that we needed to make use of specific chaperone molecules.




    What are chaperone molecules?




    Simply put chaperone molecules are substances that bind to other substances and temporarily change them so that they my pass through the stomach acid then once through they release the active ingredient in its original state.




    Ok sounds good. Why doesn’t everyone do it?




    I’m sure they eventually will. The challenge is not only finding the psychoactive herb in the first place but then finding a chaperone that will work on that specific herb and then finding a naturally occurring form of that herb.




    So what is D.O.M.S?




    D.O.M.S is an acronym for he 4 main active herbs in our base formula this the stimulant like component of the pills, the more D.O.M.S the speedier the product because of the great deal of time effort and money we have invested in coming up with this herbal formulation we have decided not to disclose the specific herbs until our final patient is through.




    Fair enough. Why is the Gen3 Range more expensive?




    Nothing is cheaper than BZP not even pharmaceutical grade caffeine this is because BZP is an intermediate chemical in lots of industrial chemicals and pharmaceuticals it is made in 100’s of tones at a time. The herbs in D.O.M.S and the other enhancers in Gen3 are much harder to get and therefore more expensive. But all that aside Gen3 is a better product with fewer side effects.




    O.K Tell us about the first pill **********, that one is entirely D.O.M.S isn’t it.




    Yes and as such it is the Gen3 version of (insert strong bzp pill here) but cleaner and longer lasting.




    That’s pretty impressive. How does it compare to (insert strongest bzp pill here)?




    Again very favorably also the good thing about the ********** is that it doesn’t have the unpleasant body load that you get after a few doses of BZP.




    Can you sleep on it?




    No don’t even bother to try.




    Sounds Like a good one for raves then. What is **** *****? I notice that one has no D.O.M.S.




    No for this one we targeted a different part of the brain, the opiate receptors.




    So it’s like Opium?




    Well obviously I can’t make that claim but it does act on many of the same parts of the brain yes. Also it seems to make music sound better and can give slight visual enhancement, more so than E but less than acid. It really makes you just want to close your eyes and melt into the music. It’s my personal favorite.




    **** *****?




    **** ***** is great it’s a cross between the first 2 ***** ***** and **** ***** and it really is a perfect E substitute much more so than *** or *** though not as strong as *** it feels qualitatively better. It is our lab rats’ pill of choice (When there not working of course).




    And Lastly ********* what does that do?




    ********* is our version of herbal acid. Simply put it’s a nice mellow trip.




    So it’s not a party pill as such?




    No although some people do like it for that. ********* is best enjoyed in a small intimate group with not much else going on and not much stimulation, maybe out in nature or a friend’s spa pool, or with a group of friends at a day after party it’s a pretty cool way to relax and come down after a full on night out on other substances
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2006
  7. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    3,376
    Messages:
    3,273
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    from U.S.A.
    My bullshit meter just exploded.
     
  8. prince

    prince Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    0
    Messages:
    7
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    Yes, and quite rightly. The product described was just withdrawn from the market. The producers claim that the D.O.M.S. content in the packaged product was not as high as in test samples, and therefore didn't work, and that they will soon release a new batch with the correct quantity of D.O.M.S. Realy? We are meant do beleive they didn't test the product as sold? Or, is it just that their product was shit and they (being a reputable BZP producer) wanted to save face, and they realy have no effective 3rd gen pary pill formula. Draw your own conclusions...However, the products SWIM described containing piperine are not those discussed above, and may well be effective... Or not. Is SWIM allowed to name them here and ask if anyone has eperience? SWIM notices Spice and other brands have been named before...
     
  9. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

    Reputation Points:
    14,178
    Messages:
    38,479
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    117 y/o from The Netherlands
    Products can be discussed. Companies can not.
     
  10. prince

    prince Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    0
    Messages:
    7
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2006
    The products in the range include Orange Xtras, Red Rockets, and Purple Ohms. Any my with experience of these or knoledge about their active ingredients?
     
  11. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

    Reputation Points:
    14,178
    Messages:
    38,479
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    117 y/o from The Netherlands
    There is a thread about that. Please use the forum search engine.
     
  12. betsym

    betsym Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    0
    Messages:
    646
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Swim's experience with certain party pills left her very sick and nauseated. They were piperazines according to the ingredients list. I do not plan to try them again unless some major changes take place and she means major changes in a good way. She said that she spent the whole entire evening bent over clutching her stomach and could barely sit up. Lying down was not an option at the time because she was in a public place. I have declared that has learned a lesson from all that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2006
  13. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    3,376
    Messages:
    3,273
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    from U.S.A.
    You've missed my point. There is no drug known to the psychedelic community which is "a perfect E substitute." Such does not exist. Some drugs may mimic some of the effects of MDMA, but none produce the same experience. This is marketing bullshit whether you're selling MDA, meth, BZP, TFMPP, D.O.M.S, or whatever.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2006
  14. IdiotBox

    IdiotBox Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    104
    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    43 y/o
    Piperine, black pepper, cayene, or any such "hot" spice is often added to herbal remedies with the belief that they act to increase the availability and/or the absorbtion of the other ingredients. Hence, the same weights of active ingredients may be more effective if administered with a dose of a pepper product. The idea is that they increase blood flow and therefore bring more active ingredient to the appropriate places quicker. They are a common additive to many commercially available herbal suppliments, also weight loss aids here in the states.

    I am also curious about the DOMS though, probably just a marketing ploy to make these "E" alternatives sound more like they contain an unregulated Research Chemical (DIPT,DOM,DMT, you get the idea)
     
  15. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    3,376
    Messages:
    3,273
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    from U.S.A.
    That's clever, I hadn't thought of that.
     
  16. darawk

    darawk Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    232
    Messages:
    381
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    While this particular product may be bullshit, the concept they're going for is a good one. Bodybuilding supplement companies have been doing this for years to create designer steroids, these are essentially what prohormones are. Instead of giving you a testosterone analog, they give you a testosterone precursor that your body converts into testosterone.

    I wonder if it would be legal to sell two "supplements" together that when mixed(in the stomach, for instance) form an illegal drug. Similar in principle to the military's use of binary nerve agents that are inert and harmless until they're combined. Since the brain naturally synthesizes DMT, and DMT is illegal in many countries, I think lawmakers would face a complete nightmare in attempting to legislate something like this.

    EDIT: Also, there are tons of "legal" highs that we all are already aware of. I wonder why companies haven't taken greater advantage of anti-histamines, dxm, propylhexedrine, kratom, Kava, harmalines, etc...These seem like perfect candidates for "party pills", but I don't see them being used much.
     
  17. Thirdedge

    Thirdedge Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,067
    Messages:
    952
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    from earth
    My guess is that these new products contain Kratom (possibly with THP) for the Methadone one, Rivea for the Acid one, 2-AI with Caffiene for the speed one, and some kind of precursors like nutmeg or safrole mixed with something else for the XTC one.
     
  18. IdiotBox

    IdiotBox Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    104
    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    43 y/o
    I think that the above statements are probably pretty close to the truth. Accoring to "Doctor *****" or whatever his name is, they are using a variety of "psychoactive herbs" that the D.O.M.S. stands for...

    Perhaps "Damiana, Oloiliqui, Mitrigina, Sida" ?or something of that nature. But he did mention that the more DOMS the speedier and the "150mg herbal extracts" leaves room for other possibilities as well outside of the DOMS blend.

    But SWIM wonders how a company could really get away with selling a concentrated LSA, for example, in press tab form? I guess they sort of already do that with purple ohms and such, but extracting it and pressing tabs seems like another level closer to illicit.

    But it is certainly possible that the bio-conversion thing could happen at some point. Like mentioned earlier, products like Animal Stak are all hormone precursors that when combined in the body essentially turn into steroids. What about the old legend involving Tryptophan loading and eating a candy bar to release endogenous DMT? That myth could certainly be realized by chemicals alone, SWIM imagines anyway;).
     
  19. Thirdedge

    Thirdedge Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,067
    Messages:
    952
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    from earth
    There is some debate whether Rivea auctually contains LSA, or whether it contains precursors that metabolise into LSA or similar substances.
    The Nxt Phase Green contains Rivea extract and is widely available in the UK where extracted LSA is technically illegal.
    The whole morning glory family appear to contain far more chemicals than literature would suggest, hence it may be possible to extract some of these while discarding others.
    Smoked Hawaiian Baby Woodrose scrapings and Rivea providing stronger effects than MG in bioessay's are evidence of this.
     
  20. IdiotBox

    IdiotBox Newbie

    Reputation Points:
    104
    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2006
    43 y/o
    Yes, I have seen conflicting reports with regard to Rivea. The chemical analysis seems to not match up with dosage reports from "traditional" sources if LSA is the only substance to be considered. I'm certain that the combinations of alkaloids causes potentiation of the LSA effects.

    LAA% Total Alks. % by weight

    Hawaiian baby wood rose: 0.04 0.30
    Ololiuqui: 0.02 0.04
    Heavenly Blue: 0.01 0.02
    Pearly Gates: 0.02 0.03
    Wedding Bells: 0.01 0.03

    AlkaloidsRivea corymbosa (ololiuqui, badoh)Ipomoea violacea (badoh negro)d-Lysergic acid amide (ergine)
    0.00650.035d-Isolysergic acid amide (isoergine)
    0.00200.005Chanoclavine
    0.00050.005Elymoclavine
    0.00050.005Lysergol
    0.0005—
    Ergometrine

    0.005Total alkaloid content
    0.0120.06
    __________________________SNIP_________________________________

    If the above is accurate, and reports in "Plants of the Gods" are accurate, then equal amounts of Hawaiian Baby Woodrose and Rivea could never create the same level of effect, but the seed dosage that I have seen has them as comparable, 6-12 seeds. Whereas MG seeds seem to be relatively equivilent to Rivea in LSA content, the reported dose is 10-20 times that amount easy for threshold to common level effects.

    But SWIM digresses...It is certainly possible that some or one of these ingredients could be isolated and could potentiate other alkaloids within the mixture DOMS.

    I have suckered up and decided to take a test drive. I will report back as soon as SWIM can.

    Please forgive the bad alignment of the above information, start the figures at 0.