Health - A scary experience with kava kava

Discussion in 'Kava-Kava' started by lyingspeed, Jul 2, 2018.

  1. lyingspeed

    lyingspeed Silver Member

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    Hey guys, just wanted to throw this bit of information out there on the health effects of kava, as I've read only one other report of this happening.

    Alright, so here's what went down. I was going through a rough patch in the beginnings of a sobriety attempt in January. I wanted to get high. Bad. Real bad. But I thought, "hey, if it's not my drug of choice and I can moderate it, it's ok!" (not necessarily) and bought some kava extract. Here is where my stupid adventure began-I took 3/4 of the bottle throughout the day. I don't remember the mgs, but I know I exceeded one gram, so it was... a lot, to say the least.

    So here I am, it's around 7 or 8pm, in the bathroom, about to brush my teeth. I was looking at myself in the mirror holding the tooth brush and my hand twitched. Now, this isn't uncommon for me because of the medications I'm on, so I thought nothing of it. Then it twitched again. Then my whole arm twitched and started shaking. Then I started shaking. I thought to myself "Shit, I'm having a seizure. I actually fucked up pretty bad this time". So I walk to the door, and I start shaking so hard I fall to the ground, my hands and arms flailing about. I start taking slow, deep breaths, and stand up... and then fall again. Finally, I get out of the bathroom and try to rush into my room (still shaking and seizing uncontrollably), run into my dad, and just about fall down the basement steps because I couldn't control my natural gate.

    This seizing and shaking continued for the rest of the night... I was so, so scared.

    Has this happened to anyone else? Why do you think it happened? Please be careful with this shit guys...

    Peace
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  2. SiR

    SiR Titanium Member

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    Then you would imagine its probably not the Kava then. If your on medications that make you commonly twitch it's probably your medications or the combinations of your medications possibly having some type of interaction.

    Kava has some studies on it being useful for the treatment of seizures, even the UMMC has done studied on Kava showing effectiveness for seizures, There is also another study I can't find the document link of a study done on animals that showed Kava has anti-seizure activity but here is a few I could quickly find...

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001429999600550X
    ^Anticonvulsive action of (±)-kavain estimated from its properties on stimulated synaptosomes and Na+ channel receptor sites

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2090123213001112
    ^Enhanced efficacy and reduced side effects of diazepam by kava combination

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299992900375
    ^Extract of kava (Piper methysticum) and its methysticin constituents protect brain tissue against ischemic damage in rodents (ischemic damage can cause a seizure and can happen during a seizure)

    If you can moderate it then why not? Taking a high dose of Kava is not that crazy, I drink moderately, strictly only on the weekends and holidays, but when I do I hammer down 3-5 shots in a night, its still moderation, its not drinking off the handle everyday. If you where hamming down Kava every single day and felt the need to be on Kava all the time then that is different but it sounded like you took alot to have a LIT day on a stressful day, not like you where pounding it down daily, Not to justify your actions or give you an excuse if your trying to be completely sober but if not then why not take Fridays/Saturdays as your LIT days or occasionally use some Cannabis at the end of especially stressful days? Thats moderation.

    What brand or the name of the product on the label? What does the back of the bottle say under "supplement facts" like what does it call the extract? Just Kava extract or does it have a number? Any other ingredients in there?
    Sadly some shitty Kava products are manufactured in China where they typically cut down on costs and whole plant can "accidentally" get into the mix and extracted, the Kava we drink is suppost to be ONLY from the Kava root as the whole plant like the stems and the leaves of the Kava plant itself have some not so good phytochemicals that we would like to avoid and the root does not have these phytochemicals/do in such a small amount that it does not effect us.
    There is also whats called noble and tudi Kava which would take another long post to explain but either way they should not cause the effects you described.

    I would of expected you to puke if you took that much of Kava extract, espcially the supplement kind, I take these 750MG kava extract pills by a brand I know, and I know for a fact its private label (a big company mass produces it and other companies pay to have there custom branding on it and re-sell it) and usually if I take 3 of them at once ill feel nausea that will make me wanna lay down and not move my head, something common with things that hit the GABA receptors
    I'm surprised there is no mention of puking or nausea in this story, did you experience any nausea or other odd effects or feelings?

    When I would make strong drinks I would use 3oz-5oz of Kava per drink, I have drank over a ounce of 2 different types of Kava extracts a few times, even used to make a really potent extract for myself, While high dosages of Kava will probably make you sick like puking/nausea for the rest of the day, it won't kill you like other drugs or lead to major adverse events like other drugs unless you have serious medical issues.

    What medications are they? Like can you list them? And why are we not assuming the reaction is from the medications that apparently commonly cause twitching?

    And you mean to tell me that you did not go to the hospital or contact emergency medical services? You understand you can suffer brain damage during a seizure and that you should contact EMS during/after one? Also mention this to whoever prescribes your medications.

    For all we know it could be your medications, or the combination or for all we know it could be something else, if you say your medications cause you to twitch then I would imagine its your medication or a combination reaction, if you respond back with a list of what you take I could look into it. How long you been taking them aswell?

    Now that is a large jump and to tell people to "becareful with this shit" thinking its dangerous is misinformation, Kava is pretty safe, Its drunk heavily in Florida, Colorado, New York at bars dedicated to pounding down high quality Kava and in its native islands its drunk in stupidly high dosages per day. Its safety profile is comparable to Cannabis and Kratom.
     
  3. SiR

    SiR Titanium Member

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    Mondafinil is known for causing random seizures especially when combined with psychoactives, would not be surprised if it was the Modafinil itself.
    Gabapentin has some of the same mechanisms of action on calcium channels and I believe some of the same GABA receptors, either way gabapentin and kava both work in the GABA system

    Probably cause the person was taking other drugs/medications not mentioned or that their Kava was not Kava, he compared the event to a Brugmansia OD, I would not do Brugmansia and if someone is willing to do Brugmanisa who knows what else they do/done that has have lasting health effects, the original poster of that thread also responded later saying he experienced another seizures similar to the one described but he was not on Kava, the OP blames blood sugar, if you want my opinion its a underlying condition or a result of a long time of different drug use. The OP also says he used Kava again without issues.

    The owner of this website responded to the post with a good response saying quote "Your experience description reads like a classic epileptic seizure. Such seizures mostly occur in a time of little sleep, high stress or low health. Kava-Kava acts on GABA-A and reduces seizure threshold, like benzos, barbituates, alcohol & Valerian do." and the owner was right, the OP responded saying he experienced it another time when he had NO Kava.

    So that thread supports my point that just cause this happened and you also happened to use Kava on the same day/same time does not directly mean the Kava was the cause, it could of been your medications or a side effect of as mentioned below, it could of been the combination, if could of been something your developing or a underlying medical condition. Its like if you take a drug and get a headache and think the drug caused the headache when in reality you would of had the headache anyway.


    Why would you do drugs or try new drugs if you get such effects from a simple substance like Cannabis? Eithr way your rant on Cannabis is irrelevant, used medically around the nation every day and is recommended for bi polar disorder by several doctors, some drugs work for different people, has nothing to do with Cannabis and has everything to do with the person, every drug is like that, your personal experience does not represent the broad majority. Like you said the medications you take seem to work for you, but might work for you might not work for everyone else and what might work for the majority might not work for you.
    EDIT: You take anti-manic and schizophrenia drugs, no offense but no shit Cannabis does not work for you, you should not even use Cannabis or Alcohol or Psychedelics or most drugs as recommend to people at risk for manic episodes or schizophrenia like psychosis disorders

    You always been like that or is that a result of the medications you take? You take them and use alcohol same day? I don't know if your doctor did not tell you or what but all your medications have serious interactions with most drugs like Alcohol, most Benzos, most Psychedelics, most Stimulants, im pretty sure some of your medications even have mild interactions with each other. Lets look at it...

    You realize all of these drugs are also anti-seizure medications that work in various different ways right? Are you at risk for seizures cause they all also double as bipolar medications but its strange your doctor would pick the selection of anti-seizure and bi-polar instead of just a bi-polar.

    Valproate (in Valproic Acid form) mechanism of action is not known and is thought to act on GABA calcium channels the same channels I mentioned that Gabapentin and Kava would most likely compete over and hit, Valprotate also hits the liver and pancreas pretty hard. Valproate combined with benzos is a risk for CNS depression. Most things that hit GABA receptors work similarly to benzos even if not directly a benzo.
    Lamotrigine mechanism of action is not confirmed but there are hypothesies as it increases GABA in the brain
    Lamotrigine can induce a type of seizure called myoclonic jerk, overdoses can also cause seizures.

    Fluphenazine can cause EPS and is a common side effect, these are sometimes mistaken by people for mild seizures, its mechanism of action is not known but is believed to block dopamine receptors.
    Olanzapine has interactions with Fluvoxamine (Luvox) cause Fluvoxamine strongly inhibits CYP1A2 activity and weakly inhibits CYP2C9
    Fluvoxamine also has interactions with Valproate (in Valproic Acid form) by weakly inhibiting CYP2B6
    2 of your medications Olanzapine and Rexulti act on Dopamine receptors but Fluphenazine is believed to block dopamine receptors
    Modafinil has reports about it randomly causing seizures especially when combined with different psychoactives

    You take a cocktail of medications that even have interactions with eachother, your doctor should of told you not to use drug without asking him about interactions and he should of told you not to use alcohol or other drugs and if you take all of these things which are mostly anti-manics and anti-schizophrenia drugs you should not be using any psychoactive drug anyway, that is why you have such an unsual reaction to Cannabis

    Many of your medications interact with the other medications you take, some of them specifically interacting with the GABA system which is what Kava hits

    How long have you been on all of these medications? I'm happy to hear you say they are working for you, I usually see complaints about Gabapentin and Mondafinil


    Yeah but it would really suck to randomly die one day due to a underlying condition or a reaction/interaction with your medications or a adverse health effect caused by them. I would of went right to the E.R after that happened if not called EMS during, seizures can cause brain damage but can also cause other adverse health effects. The OP you mentioned in the forum post did not have another seizure until months after.

    Yeah but did you newly add a medication during this time or use any other psychoactive drugs? Damn thats alot of years of trying out different stuff, hope you find the balance that is right for you.

    If they work for you then they work for you and i'm glad you found something that works for you. Different strokes for different folks. Cannabis works for me but i'm apparently just a "bigoted hippy" for thinking so.


    Yes and sadly people that are not properly educated can post whatever they want which is why people like me step in and present facts and knowledge and educate the person and the people who will come across the posts in the future of the misinformation, I believe we both laid out our points well and I am confident I responded to you sufficiently for people to understand your case is not typical and Kava was most likely not the cause of your seizures or if it was it was due to the rare cocktail combination of medications, you take multiple medications with multiple side effects and interactions including mild seizures and muscle movement disorders, you have a strange reaction to Cannabis which sounds like the adverse reactions people with schizophrenia get from using Cannabis and other Psychoactives.

    A drug that has never killed anyone is absolutely completely harmless Cannabis, Kratom, Salvia have all never killed anyone from use. As in no deathly overdose and no major adverse health effects like kidney failure, liver failure, seizures, lasting conditions, ect, that does not include being so high you fall off a roof or puking or having mild withdrawal symptoms that don't pose any health risks. Kava is about on the same level, that is Kava root, the liver issue with Kava is long disputed but as I said islanders who drink massive amounts of Kava daily have no issues and the people drinking buckets (literally) of Kava in Florida and New York and Colorado have no issues and I believe the only people who ever had a actual documented cases had severe pre existing medical problems with their liver and bodies and even lost death suits cause it was most likely the people would of died as a result of their pre existing medical condition then the Kava.

    Take the dangers of Alcohol and compare them to Cannabis and Kratom, you can drink enough alcohol to die, hell you can die from the withdrawal of Alcohol itself but you can't use enough Cannabis or Kratom to die from it unless you physically choked on it. That is what makes it harmless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  4. lyingspeed

    lyingspeed Silver Member

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    Fair, fair. I stand corrected. I've always rarely puked, it's rather annoying sometimes. No, I don't have a seizure disorder. Anti-seizure medications are commonly prescribed for bipolar, many people I've met in the hospital take those two medications together.

    I know about eps, I've experienced the worst of it... The occasional eye rolling, my foot locks up rarely, the drooling stupor.

    I didn't know about myoclonic jerk, I have a feeling the combination of kava and lamictal may have caused that. Very informative post
     
  5. Gradois

    Gradois Silver Member

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    I would be really careful with using non prescribed drugs when you are already on so many prescribed drugs. Kava is safe when taken alone, but we don't really know a lot about what kind of interactions it can have with other drugs.

    That might be true. They are both weak mao inhibitors. Taken together they might act as a strong mao inhibitor. A severe maoi overdose can cause myoclonic jerks. Or they might interact with one of the other drugs you are taking.
     
  6. Mr Boiny

    Mr Boiny Newbie

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    I used kava fairly regularly for about 18 months. What I'm about to share is coming from a recovered alcoholic (18 years so far).

    I frequented a local kava bar and also purchased root for preparation on my own. 3-4 times a week was probably my average usage, although I would use several days in a row at times. I always liked the effect kava had on me, it's a relaxing and sometimes euphoric experience. A friend and I used the kava bar to practice the game of chess. Being several pints in and playing chess - pretty blissful stuff.

    Now here's the downsides - at least what I experienced. First off, while I never got pulled over, I did have to focus a lot harder to drive. Drink enough kava and you'll get what they call kava drunk. It's a lot like booze, but you have much more mental and physical control. Still, it's an altered state - and driving that way might cost you. I got away with it. Then again, I got away with a lot driving drunk for a couple decades too.

    Next, the way I felt the next day was much different than the day after a binge of drinking alcohol. Sometimes I was just burnt out and often needed a nap or two later in the day, after sleeping in if I could get away with it. Much better than a hangover, granted, but an often unproductive space, and a zombie like apathy toward just about everything. Simply put, motivation wasn't.

    Additionally, there's the expense. Again, much better than what booze cost me, but I was spending on average between $250 and $300 a month on this stuff. Now those are hard costs, maybe a little over three grand per year. I wonder what the intangible cost was considering the day or two after use, when I'd be about as productive as a sloth.

    Ultimately, however, what made me stop using kava is my noticing how it was following a pattern of my drinking abuse. In the beginning, I was able to drink alcohol with a thirst and manage it. But slowly it became less manageable until it was too late and my alcoholism was full blown. Kava seemingly was doing the same thing. When I told myself I'd have two, I'd have four, then go home and make two more. It wasn't making my life unmanageable, but was on that path.

    So I put the plug in the jug on this one. While undeniably enjoyable, kava, for me, came with a price. It stymied motivation, deadened inspiration, detoxed me to sleep, and frankly wasn't worth several grand a year.

    I post this so others that may be questioning the day after effects of kava may know they are not alone. This is for those that have that little voice telling them something isn't right, but can't quite put a finger on it.


    For the rest of you, it definitely has some upside which I enjoyed. It's just not for me.



    Hey now...
     
  7. Jack Davis

    Jack Davis Silver Member

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    Actually, neither gabapentin nor Kava-Kava act on GABA-A receptors. Here's some studies if you don't believe me:
    Kava pyrones and resin: studies on GABAA, GABAB and benzodiazepine binding sites in rodent brain.
    Mechanisms of action of gabapentin.

    Instead they inhibit Ca2+ channels which also has anti-consultant effects. While this seems to have a downstream GABA-ergic effect, it's misleading to say that they're GABA-A binding.

    Once again, Kava-Kava doesn't do that. All of these drugs actually increase your seizure threshold. The anti-convulsant effects are mediated by Ca2+ channels. However Kava-Kava also has MAOI effects which likely LOWERS seizure threshold. Despite its anti-consultant effects being documented, this could have contributed or caused OP's episode.

    It's actually pretty common for these types of anti-consultant drugs to be prescribed for psychiatric disorders, mostly because of mood-stabilizing or anxyolitic properties. I think you're right that his other medications probably contributed though. For instance, olanzapine and plenty of meds might lower seizure threshold. However, considering it happened after OP took a shit load of Kava Kava extract, that's still probably what precipitated it considering the MAOI mechanism. I think you should stay away from Kava Kava and probably talk to a doctor about this considering that wasn't an illegal drug. If you're epileptic it's important you find out and get treatment.