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Drug info - Adderall VS Vyvanse

Discussion in 'Adderall' started by TweakedOut, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. TweakedOut

    TweakedOut

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    SWIM has been prescribed adderall xr, 60mg daily. swim said adderall has been fantastic and has worked wonders for his concentration while giving him a pretty nice euphoric/speedy buzz. The only problem swim has is that his body seems to be metabolizing the adderall too quickly and does not get him through the day. His doctor suggested trying vyvyanse, which he explained as a longer acting formulation of d-amphetamine. Pure d-amphetamine. where as adderall xr is a mix(swim thinks the ratio is 74:26 D:L) of dextro-amp and levo-amp.
    swim has an appointment scheduled and is to decide thursday whether or not to give vyvanse a try.

    Swims question:
    is the euphoria/speedy rush he experiences from adderall xr from the d-amphetamine isomers or the l-amp isomers? do both have the same effects?
    if it is d-amp that gives him this high please specify if the switching to vyvanse will give him more of a high than the adderall.

    all opinions and feedback are welcome! :thumbsup:

    TweakedOut added 1003 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

    Also if somebody could give swim personal experiences with both(if swiy has had them), that would be great.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2011
  2. Raw-Beets

    Raw-Beets Silver Member

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    The d-amphetamine portion of Adderall is more important for the speedy euphoric buzz than the l-amphetamine. In SWIM's experience Vyvanse lasted longer, had a smoother come-up, plateau and come down, and was somewhat more euphoric than Adderall. So, to sum it up, go ahead and try Vyvanse.

    Be advised that Vyvanse is not longer acting because it is d-amphetamine. It is longer acting because it is a d-amphetamine molecule conjugated to a lysine amino acid, lisdexamphetamine. As the body metabolizes the lysine off of the lisdexamphetamine, the d-amphetamine is released. This type of chemical time release results in the effects coming and going smoothly over a long period of time. Also, it does not compare w/ Adderall on a mg to mg basis. 2.5mg of Vyvanse, is equivalent to about 1mg of Dexedrine, d-amphetamine sulphate. So, if you wanted to get a level of effect similar to 30mg Adderall XR you should start out around 70mg Vyvanse, which is the largest formulation.
     
  3. TweakedOut

    TweakedOut

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    Thanks for replying, very clear and to the point.

    Swim has decided to give vyvanse a try, his doctor told him if he dis-liked it or experienced negative side affects, he could at any point stop the vyvanse and switch back to adderall. That comforts swim because he doesnt want to take the risk switching to vyvanse, not liking it then being stuck with it. Swims appointment is tomorrow so he will have the vyvanse tomorrow or Friday. He will post back Here with his experience and opinion of vyvanse compared to adderall xr.


    Swim is still very open to hearing other swi-a-dfmember's experiences and/or opinions on vyvanse in comparison to adderall xr. :D
     
  4. CkenX

    CkenX Silver Member

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    I'm curious to know what your opinion is of Vyvanse after your switch. My brother was on 40mg Adderall xr when he was younger. He prefers IR but has never been able to get his doctor to prescribe them. Recently he got Vyvanse, 50-100mg once a day. The buzz is amazing my brother says. Said it takes long to kick in fully (4 hours to peek) and holds peek for over 8 hours! never even notices when hes crashing either. Doesn't seem to have a crash, just slowly tappers itself off. He doesn't know which he'd rather have, Adderall or Vyvanse. Both have very nice traits, but differ somehow. Eating with Vyvanse helps it absorb up to 70% in the GI track where as adderall is up to 20%. Big difference. I also don't believe any information provided on lisdex molecular weight in comparison to dex IR. 100MG of Vyvanse feels like 100mg oral Adderall or 50mg plugged said my brother. Sites on the net seem to have all different numbers involving equivalent doses. Lisdexamfetamine is, in my brother's eyes, a designer drug. They've found a way to make it stronger, absorb slower but more completely (most important), reduced negative side effects greatly, and it lasts as long as Meth.
     
  5. StaticDynamic

    StaticDynamic Silver Member

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    Swim has been prescribed the same dosage of 30mg Adderall XR 2x daily for 11 months. He enjoyed the euphoric buzz and concentration as well, and once the dosing was made at fixed intervals throughout each day, he enjoyed the medication a lot. He did abuse it every now and then, taking 60-120mg Adderall IR that his girlfriend was prescribed and used infrequently. Over the course of about 8 months, Swim's dosage of 30mg XR 2x daily was becoming ineffective fairly quickly and psychological comedown became intensified. He decided to discuss Vyvanse with his doctor and was given 40 and 50mg dosages, 15 of each, to decide which worked best.

    Swim has noticed that the Vyvanse is very mild compared to Adderall XR and even moreso compared to IR. It has been difficult for Swim to assimilate to the new dosage as it is indeed less. The onset is very gradual, sometimes taking up to an hour and a half to reach full effect. He claims that over 5-6 hours after peak, it will very slowly decline and after about 6-7 hours, it may be difficult to notice. Though his psychological comedown is not as intense, it is much more prolonged vs. both Adderall XR and IR. He abuses it by taking 80-120mg occasionally. It is a difficult switch for Swim, but it makes abuse of a medicine that is vital for his concentration in rigorous schooling less enticing.
     
  6. CkenX

    CkenX Silver Member

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    My friend liked adderall more. It wasn't until he realized how much better Vyvanse is! It's very strong he says, producing 6 hours of euphoria rather than 45-2nd IR euphoria. Vyvanse also has to be taken orally, that's the only way to get effects. This keeps my friend safe from hurting his nose! Pluse Vyvanse is said to be over 70% bioavailable when taken orally, which is more compares to the 65% you get sniffing IR. I'd rather take something if I know it's the most effective. Because Vyvanse is digested in the gGI track almost all is absourbed and food doesn't effect potency. Eating with Vyvanse shouldnt promote the production of enzymes and break down the lysene attached to the dex better and faster. The come up isn't strong and the comedown isn't harsh. Vyvanse is pretty dose sensitive to my friend. If he takes 1 50mg it wears off halfway through the day and he can notice the difference in focus but prefers 100mg because effects are more pronounced and desirable. But Vyvanse has started wearing off quicker even with 100mg. It's aggravating but adderall lasts even shorter. My friend says adderall doesn't even give him the buzz he's looking for, Vyvanse has a better longer productive buzz.
     
  7. fillet-o-fish

    fillet-o-fish Newbie

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    I apologize if what I'm about to say has been repeated but I want to attempt to clarify and educate those who are interested in Vyvanse...

    ...especially those who may be curious about intravenous route of ingestion...

    Lis-dexamphetamine (Vyvanse) is water-soluble (792 mg/mL). The reason it is considered a pro-drug is because the amino acid lysine is attached to the dex-amphetamine molecule (very similar to the adderall molecule). This causes the drug Vyvanse to be metabolized by the body at a more stable constant rate (preventing overdoses).
    Although, the gastro-intestinal system contains enzymes (like proteases, trypsin) that breakdown this pro-drug to its most efficient form, enzymes are not solely needed to cleave the amino acid lysine. A moderately strong aqueous acid solution will work. Emphasis here is that it will work to an extent, nothing will work as well as your digestive system will. However, as a very general rule, anything water-soluble at room temperature will travel through your blood and to eventually to your liver where it, along with all blood, is filtered. Therefore...

    Safest way:
    -Let it dissolve in room temperature DI (de-ionized) water for 25-30 min. Distilled water is safe as well
    -Filter at least 2x
    -To the Moon!

    More dangerous way:
    -Let it dissolve in a mixture of a weak acid (lemon/grapefruit/orange juice, vinegar, ascorbic acid a.k.a. Vitamin C) + room temperature DI water in a 4:1 ratio for 15-20 min.
    -Filter at least 2x
    -Good Luck!

    The second method is more dangerous because you must take into consideration the possible bacteria (acidophiles) within the acidic fruit juice or vinegar. Remember, aseptic technique (performing under sterile conditions) is key for intravenous use!
     
  8. CkenX

    CkenX Silver Member

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    I'm almost positive that injecting Vyvanse in DI water will have little to no effect at all. Lisdexamfetamine is inactive until dexamphetamine is separated from lysine which has to be done in the digestive system. The blood filtered through the liver won't break down the molecule. The acid blend might work, but the yield of dexamphetamine wouldn't be as good as the 75+% obsorbed orally. If Vyvanse was recreationaly injectable then Shire wouldn't be able to make that claim and wiki says there were trials and tests done with amphetamine abusers who reported no effects.
     
  9. Vita

    Vita

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    A friend once gave SWIM Vyvanese 70mg. Swim has done lots of Adderall up to 100mg before, and I thought Adderall would be the strongest prescription stimulant. Boy was Swim wrong. Once the Vyvanese hit swim it felt like it was the first time he did Adderall x 5. He was high for much longer than what Adderall would have him, lasted longer and seemed to be more intense.
     
  10. CkenX

    CkenX Silver Member

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    My friend agrees with you and said he also think Vyvanse is stronger than Adderall. My friend's boyfriend holds his Vyvanse in his personal safe so it doesn't end up abused and gone in two weeks. Her boyfriend is prescribed Adderall 60mg a day, and sometimes they trade medication. My friend asked for her vyvanse the other morning and was asked if she'd rather have Adderall, and my friend didn't even hesitate to insist on her 80mg Vyvanse. Her boyfriend was shocked and asked "really" since choosing another medication over Adderall is unimaginable. Vyvanse is close to completely aborbed. Vyvanse's anti-abuse mechanisim has made the drug more potent through higher obsorbtion. Lasts much longer, less cravings to redose are duely noteded, where as my friend wants more adderall 3 hours later.
     
  11. 4hkd

    4hkd Silver Member

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    Anyone else want to comment on the strength of Adderall vs. Vyvanse? Also, how long does it take for Vyvanse to peak? Here it says 1 hour and 4 hours?
     
  12. Urgez

    Urgez Silver Member

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    SWIM admits that vyvanse is better (not stronger necessarily) than adderall xr. however, it does not give him a "buzz" compared to adderall IR. it has an eerie quality of simply blending into your day, which is what its intended to do frankly. but unfortunately, with vyvanse you don't have the option of dosing more to get high, or snorting to get high, (can you even plug it?)
     
  13. pharmycologist

    pharmycologist

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    SWIM did not read every post, just OP.

    Thought he would add his experience. He was first given Vyvanse, which worked great at 30mg until it dropped off and didn't work as well. SWIM wanted to just go up to the 70mg Vyvanse but the psych insisted on trying IR Adderall.

    To SWIM, adderall seemed to be way to speedy. It did help him focus and keep his mind right (he has both types of ADHD) and be motivated, but it seemed at the doses needed for this heart was beating and overall just didn't feel good.

    In conclusion if SWIY wants it for medicinal value, Vyvanse would be SWIMs choice, he is going to try to go back to that. SWIM has never tried Adderall XR however.

    One thing of note: on SWIMs first Vyvanse experience, ingested early in the morning, still had SWIM not sleep on wink all night. After that it got better though. Hope this experience helps.
     
  14. phiz

    phiz

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    SWIM feels significantly more speedy, euphoric, talkative, and if need be, concentrated and motivated, while on vyvanse. After getting a vyvanse prescription, SWIM finds that taking 2 to 3 adderal XRs still don't do the same feeling that vyvanse does.
     
  15. moke64916

    moke64916 Newbie

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    My friend is prescibed to adderall 30mg XL, takes it at 7:00A.M. and notices a comedown around 4P.M. IF he were prescibed to Vyvanse when would it wear off if taken at same time? Out of all the Amphetamines he's tried, Adderall seems to be the strongest. He has not yet been prescibed to Vyvance though. What is the duration of Vyvance compared to Adderall XL?
     
  16. upama123

    upama123

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    Vyvanse is nothing more than time released Dexedrine. It was developed to take over Adderall's 'brand name' revenue as the generic is more prescribed.

    What is the difference in the two, ie Vyvanse vs Adderall?

    Vyvanse is strictly made up of D-amphetamine.

    Adderall is several forms of D-amphetamine and L-amphetamine.

    There are theories on D vs L amphetamines.. and you can look them up - but basically given that Adderall has both forms it has a broader range of action, and thus is commonly reported to be 'stronger'.

    Also, due to the makeup of these two, yes, the Vyvanse is commonly reported to stop working for no apparent reason, and/or lose its effectiveness to a considerable degree.

    The only downside I can see about you switching to a comparable dose of Adderall would be the possibility of increased anxiety. Though a trial period of Adderall would certainly be worthy. Consult with your doctor and describe the problems, and your request. There shouldn't be a problem in shifting.
     
  17. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    Vyvanse is d-amphetamine with a lysine molecule attached to it; it's 'official' name is lisdexamphetamine.

    Vyvanse, as I understand it, is not time-released, it is delayed release. This is because Vyvanse has that lysine attached to it; the lysine is only released from the dexamphetamine once it gets to the intestines. Prior to that, the dexamphetamine isn't active.

    The point being, Vyvanse can't be abused in the manners that Dexedrine (d-amphetamine) & Adderall (d- & l-amphetamine) can. The only way Vyvanse can be 'abused' is merely by taking extra; no snorting, injecting, plugging, smoking (if you can smoke either of them anyway).

    ~Kailey
     
  18. staples

    staples Gold Member

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    The euphoric effects and efficacy for treatment of symptoms of AD(H)D are produced by the dextrorotatory isomer. The levorotary isomer has barely any of the affinity for dopaminergic cells, but maintains selective affinity for noradrenergic cells. Both l-amph and d-amph have slightly different pharmcokinetics in adolescents compared to adults, and the mixture used for Adderall may be more beneficial for (some!) children than it is for adults; theoretically l-amph should quicken the subjective onset and extend the duration of effects, however l-amph is known to have insignificant effects on behavior/insignificant central actions, and more significant peripheral effects, such as the cardiovasular effects. L-amph is thought to typically be the main cause of undesirable side-effects related to Adderall. I've never seen any literature that would substantiate the claim that l-amph salts in combination with d-amph salts gives Adderall a "broader range of effects" than a formulation of just d-amph.

    It is absolutely typical for some people to quickly develop tolerance to lower doses of psychostimulant medication, they typically settle for one of the higher doses without losing efficacy over time (if used for efficacy). This is by no means a phenomenon specific to lisdexamfetamine or d-amph and somehow unheard of in the case of Adderall. In fact, if anything, the prodrug action of lisdexamfetamine demonstrably produces less variable inter-subject pharmacokinetic coefficients, and thus should, in general, be more consistent in effects from one day to the next than Adderall (again, when taken in a therapeutic manner). If lisdexamfetamine "stops working for no apparent reason", there certainly aren't very many studies which have discovered it in any frequency at all, much less a frequency that might be considered "common".

    It's hard to say because vyvanse is the dimesylate salt of lisdexamfetamine, which is a prodrug of d-amph. The very different pharmacokinetics alone could cause differing subjective euphoria among different people.

    I've been prescribed both (in combination--Adderall IR to extend effect of lisdexamfetamine--and apart). I strongly prefer lisdexamfetamine to Adderall's formulation of amphetamine salts (either IR or XR), and I mildly prefer dextroamphetamine to lisdexamfetamine (lisdexamfetamine was working fine but my neurologist wanted me to try a medication with more quickly-diminished effects in order to prevent exacerbation of insomnia--we had already seen that cessation of stimulant medication didn't seem to help insomnia very much, but if I was going to be using a stimulant medication, she was more comfortable with a non-prodrug form).

    The mean T[sub]max[/sub] of plasma d-amph after lisdexamfetamine ingestion is 3.7 hours.

    Yeah, but if you're going to split hairs, this isn't really "delayed-release", it's just a reiteration of the fact that lisdexamfetamine is a prodrug of d-amph--by definition, it is a pharmacologically inactive substance that is metabolized in vivo into an active metabolite (or "bioactivated").

    Er, lisdexamfetamine came on the market shortly before Shire's patent on Adderall XR expired, so it's not that the generic form is more prescribed (in fact, I don't think any physician typically demands that the patient be given a generic formulation), but moreso that generics would be available and surely many insurance plans (or uninsured patients) would prefer the cheaper generic forms. Shire's timing in putting Vyvanse on the market was no coincidence--it gave them time to promote its decreased abuse potential and very similar comparative tolerability to Adderall XR, which makes an excellent argument for doctors to try prescribing Vyvanse before Adderall, or to patients having side effects with Adderall. This is an obvious business tactic, it happened when Shire's patent on Adderall IR was going to expire (they boasted Adderall XR). It is interesting to note that before lisdexamfetamine, they were originally working on a triple-release formulation of Adderall (i.e, one dose is released instantly, the next dose is released approximately 4 hours after ingestion, and a third dose is released approximately 8 hours after ingestion), the idea being that this formulation could replace the common practice of prescribing Adderall XR + a second dose of Adderall IR to be taken in the afternoon to prevent the effects from wearing off too early. Obviously, they probably predicted lisdexamfetamine would have a higher ROI.
     
  19. alienesseINspace

    alienesseINspace

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    I visited the doctor yesterday and we talked about the negative and positive aspects of the generic Adderall salt combo. I was taking 40 mg twice a day and it was not lasting the 14-16 hour work days.

    He suggested 70mg of Vyvanse.

    Today, roughly two hours ago I took my first dose of it for the first time.

    I am just starting to notice a difference. It doesn't have the kick in the head that I am used to but I am also not fidgety and jittery.

    I'll update again soon as I know that the medication may increase its efficacy.

    alienesseINspace added 109 Minutes and 45 Seconds later...

    It has been about 3.5 hours since I took the 70 mg dose of Vyvanse. I was thinking "what the hell is this weak crap."

    Well, it's not weak crap. I am not having a euphoric spell but I am doing my job with ease. I feel calm, focused, and able to handle the ups and downs of what I have to deal with.

    I got a verbal warning for being on my phone calls too long and trying to waive fees for someone which is against the rules. My self esteem would normally have taken a dive and my focus would have been purely on how crappy I am.

    I believe the Vyvanse is helping me actually FIX the problem and stick to the rules without going on tangents trying to do random things to help people. I am in sales, not customer service, so it's hard to drop the "I want to help" attitude and switch gears to "I will sell you tech support to fix the issue."

    On Adderall, my mind was focused but not as calm and I was definitely helping too much when that's not what I am supposed to do.

    Does the drug really matter that much? Right now, yes. Once the right habits are formed, I shouldn't need ADHD meds. Chemical dependence is not good, one way or another.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
  20. staples

    staples Gold Member

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    ^ I'm glad to hear that lisdexamfetamine is showing some promising results for you. However, it, as well as Adderall, are classified as schedule II substances, which indeed implies, among other things, a higher chance of becoming dependent--and that's not necessarily bad, so long as you use as instructed and when/if you feel like you do not need it anymore, you seek the advice of your doctor before discontinuing. SS(N)RIs, while not classified as schedule II substances (there are more criteria than potential to cause dependence, after all), are a good example of this concept.

    I just want to point out that, while it's always better to address a mental disorder without medication, it can't always be done in a reasonable amount of time, or it may not even be possible, in which case, technically, the patient might be considered 'dependent' on a medication before ever trying it in the first place. Needing a medication long-term is nothing to be ashamed about. If someone is prescribed medication for AD(H)D long-term, the presumption is that the doctor knows the implications and s/he has determined that the benefits outweigh the risks.