Question - Adding lemon juice or baking soda to kratom?

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by FeralKittyKat, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. FeralKittyKat

    FeralKittyKat Newbie

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    I have read many things about how grape fruit juice, Tagamet, magnesium and other things help the kratom experience. But I often see people adding lemon juice to their tea, but have also read that tums are helpful (so I assume baking soda would be the same, correct me if I'm wrong) but wouldn't only tums OR lemon juice help, not both since they would cancel each other out? I was wanting some scientific advice please.
     
  2. Dreambird

    Dreambird Titanium Member

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    Hi Kitty, welcome!

    Acid
    The main active ingredient of kratom is mitragynine (and, to a lesser degree, 7-hydroxymitragynine). Mitragynine is sensitive to acid, it degrades easily.

    Baking soda
    Baking soda contains sodium carbonate, which is an antacid. The same goes for tums, they're alkaline as well. Therefore, baking soda, tums, sodium carbonate, etc. bind gastric acid in your stomach and neutralize some of it. Thus, there is less acid in your stomach to degrade the kratom.

    Tagamet
    Tagamet is a little different though. It contains cimetidine, which is an H2-antihistaminic. It doesn't reduce the acid in your stomach directly, it reduces the production of gastric acid. So Tagamet will reduce the acidity of your stomach as well, but over a longer period of time.

    Conclusion
    Acid destroys mitragynine, the active ingredient of kratom. So it's generally favorable to go without acidic drinks when using kratom and maybe even reducing the level of gastric acid by taking sodium carbonate, cimetidine, etc.

    Remarks
    Nevertheless, there are people who swear on acidic substances as potentiators for kratom. A possible explanation is, that the acid not only degrades mitragynine, but also helps to dissolve it from the plant material in the first place. This however, is an untested hypothesis and I haven't been able to find scientific work to prove or disprove it.

    Grape fruit juice is a different subject. It inhibits the liver enzymes CYP3A4 and CYP2D6. As far as I know, they are not involved in the metabolism of kratom. However, they are important for the conversion of various other drugs, such as codeine for example.
    Source:
    pubmed/17995595
     
  3. SiR

    SiR Titanium Member

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    Baking Soda causes less stomach acid to be produced leading to quicker absorption.
    People use Tums for the same reason as Baking Soda.

    People use Lemon Juice cause it helps extract the alkaloids from the plant material. I have only heard of people using it for making extracts but I guess it would help for tea to.

    GrapeFruit Juice increases the absorption of a drug into the bloodstream.
    White Grapefruit juice is best.

    Magnesium mildly relaxes the muscles and helps with constipation. I have never personally noticed it enhancing Kratom but other people have.

    Tagament I have only seen a few reports here and there but from what I have read it greatly enhances Kratom effects and seems to make it work faster.

    As for your main question....As I said from what I have personally seen and done people use Lemon Juice to help extract the alkaloids not necessarily enhance the Kratom but who knows it could have an enhancing effect on its own.

    But if you took a Tums I would imagine the Tums would help cleanup stomach acid aswell as the leftover acids from the Lemon Juice once it hit your stomach. Would this cause a decreased effect? It might cause the Tums to not get as much stomach acid cause of the Lemon Juice if I had to guess...But if the Lemon Juice is just for extracting alkaloids from the plant material then you would not need the Lemon Juice once the tea hits your stomach anyway.

    I would just be aware of interactions with GrapeFruit juice and BakingSoda as I said they lead to quicker absorption and quicker effect for most drugs so people on SSRIs and other drugs on are suggested not to use GrapeFruit juice or large amounts of BakingSoda.
     
  4. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Hi, can you please post something to verify this, Thanks
     
  5. Dreambird

    Dreambird Titanium Member

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    @ianzombie

    Yes, I wanted to post the link initially, but it didn't work (haven't got my 50 posts yet). Anyway, I'm referring to the article

    "Understanding the Physicochemical Properties of Mitragynine, a Principal Alkaloid of Mitragyna speciosa, for Preclinical Evaluation"

    by

    Surash Ramanathan, Suhanya Parthasarathy, Vikneswaran Murugaiyah, Enrico Magosso, Soo Choon Tan and Sharif Mahsufi Mansor
    Published 18.03.2015
    ISSN 1420-3049

    Page 1

    Quote:
    Mitragynine had poor solubility in water and basic media, and conversely in acidic environments, but it is acid labile.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  6. Lady Codone

    Lady Codone Titanium Member

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    I keep seeing the claim that "if you don't add lemon to your tea, it's worthless." Which is simply not true in my experience. For me, adding lemon or lime juice to my kratom tea makes ZERO difference in the potency or quality of effects. I've experimented with adding different amounts of lemon at different phases of the tea-making process, and it just doesn't have any effect for me.

    The thing that seems to make the most difference, for me, is boiling my tea vigorously for a full 20 minutes. I used to be afraid to destroy the active alkaloids (since poppy alkaloids are so fragile and shouldn't be boiled), but kratom seems to work better when boiled on high. I keep my temperature at a '7' for 15 minutes before reducing it to a '5' for the remaining 5 minutes. Then I leave it on the stove to cool before straining.

    Now, if you're going to eat the kratom powder at the bottom of your tea glass, it doesn't matter as much which method you use to prepare your tea, as you'll still be getting all the goodies. But for those of us who can't ingest that plant material, preparation methods are crucial.

    As for potentiators, I take Zantac (ranitidine) 2x daily but don't know how this affects my kratom experience...if at all. For the most part, I find kratom less than optimal in terms of satisfying my desire for pain relief and euphoria, as I can no longer can eat the powder due to stomach irritation. Eating the powder really does make a huge difference in effects for me. Meh.
     
  7. purplehaze147

    purplehaze147 Silver Member

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    Well salts dissolve better in water than freebases. Adding lemon juice to the tea while it is brewing may help extract more since it would create mitragynine citrate, a salt.
     
  8. trippymindfuk

    trippymindfuk Silver Member

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    A low dose of DXM helps potentiate kratom as well.
     
  9. Dreambird

    Dreambird Titanium Member

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    Various theories have been mentioned here, accompanied by little evidence, unfortunately. So I try to evaluate the claims based on the material I have been able to find.

    Lemon juice / Salt Theory
    purplehaze147 states that salts have better water solubility than free bases. According to Wikipedia ("free bases"), that is correct. Furthermore he theorizes, that lemon juice might turn mitrygynine into mitragynine citrate and therefore increasing its water solubility, leading to a higher concentration of available mitragynine.

    According to the source I already mentioned, that is not the case. Not only has the salt a worse bioavailability than unaltered mitragynine, the acid also causes decomposition:

    Conclusion
    Lemon juice, and other acids as well, will probably decrease the strength of kratom. They are not suitable potentiators.

    Source
    "Understanding the Physicochemical Properties of Mitragynine, a Principal Alkaloid of Mitragyna speciosa, for Preclinical Evaluation"
    by
    Surash Ramanathan, Suhanya Parthasarathy, Vikneswaran Murugaiyah, Enrico Magosso, Soo Choon Tan and Sharif Mahsufi Mansor
    Published 18.03.2015
    ISSN 1420-3049

    Page 4920 / Page 6 of the PDF


    DXM
    trippymindfuk recommends low dose dextromethorphan (DXM) as a potentiator. According to Wikipedia, DXM is a NMDA receptor antagonist. NMDA antagonists can be used to prevent or lower tolerance to various CNS depressants, including opiates. Maybe that is also true for kratom - I haven't been able to find conclusive proof of that. However, it seems reasonable, as NMDA antagonists affect tolerance specifically on the mu-opioid receptor, which gets stimulated by kratom.

    But does DXM actually increase the strength of kratom, is it a real potentiator? I personally don't think so. I have tried DXM numerous times for that purpose, but to no avail. Also, I can't find any pharmacological process that would support that claim. If you have such material, I would be more than happy to have a look at it.

    Conclusion
    It is likely, that DXM is helpful in preventing and reducing tolerance to kratom. However, DXM probably does not act as a potentiator for kratom itself.

    Source
    NMDA Antagonists and Tolerance to Drugs Affecting the Central Nervous System
    J. M. Khanna, G. S. Morato and Vania. M. M. Ferreira
    1999 Neva Press, Branford, Connecticut
    Page 172
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017
  10. purplehaze147

    purplehaze147 Silver Member

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    Dreambird, does that study say which acid was used to form the salt of mitragynine? Citric acid isn't as strong of an acid as commonly used hydrochloric or sulfuric acid. I can't say from experience with kratom whether or not it'd be a good idea to add lemon juice since I only take it in capsules (way too bitter), but I'm almost positive adding lemon juice to my poppy pod tea brews extracted more morphine into the tea.

    Also I wouldn't doubt that mitragynine alone is very non-toxic since it's likely an alpha-2 adrenic auto receptor antagonist which increases levels of adrenalin and noradrenalin. Adrenalin used to be used as an antidote for opioid overdoses before naloxone and nalorphine.

    I've never felt any potentation from taking kratom with DXM (30-150mg dosages). It only dirtied the high. Adding small 5-15mg doses of methoxetamine (a ketamine analog and NMDA antagonist) to my heroin made me nod so hard though. The latter is very dangerous.
     
  11. Dreambird

    Dreambird Titanium Member

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    They were using simulated gastric fluid (SGF) (containing hydrochloric acid) (pH 1.2) and simulated intestinal fluid (SIF) (also containing hydrochloric acid) (pH 6.8). But the acidity isn't a variable here, as they measured pH:

    They conclude:

    Regarding the poppy tea, you are absolutely correct. I very much enjoy poppy seed tea, and I can tell from my own experience, that acid is absolutely necessary to make it work. Contrary to mitragynine, morphine is stable in acidic environments.

    Source
    Formulation Development and Stability Testing of Oral Morphine Solution Utilizing Preformulation Approach
    Detpon Preechagoon, Viroj Sumyai, Khanittha Tontisirin, Sirikul Aumpon and Thaned Pongjanyakul
    2005

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017