Arriocarpus fissuratus

Discussion in 'Peyote & San Pedro' started by azrael2600, Sep 9, 2006.

  1. azrael2600

    azrael2600 Silver Member

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    Swim grows exotic cacti (arriocarpus fissuratus)
    it's sometimes labeled as false peyote (so is another species of arriocarpus) by some indian tribes. some net reports say it's stonger than reg. peyote.
    swim say's it's 4cm in diameter and has only grown 2cm in the last 4 years.
    swim also knows that it also has high amounts of certain forms of phenylthylamines. but no mescline.
    does SWIM no anybody who has any experiences with it.
     
  2. azrael2600

    azrael2600 Silver Member

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    forgot

    Swim also say's that it has hitsory of being used by native americans, when peyote is not available
     
  3. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    It is supposed to be a narcotic deliriant and has little record of human use. Check Erowid for reports. Takes forever to grow, but easy to get seeds and cuttings (not prohibited except collection of many since some species are endangered).
     
  4. azrael2600

    azrael2600 Silver Member

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    You know their a rare species.
    You grows rare catci
    You also couldn't find anything on erowid.
    You just wanted to know what the experience would be like
    maybe it's that rare and maybe You has to find out on his own
     
  5. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    I thought the reports were from Erowid. I know they are somewhere. Try some of the ethnobotanical forums. If SWIM runs across then, I will post them here.
     
  6. bman1

    bman1 Palladium Member

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    A. fissuratus appeared in a vision to me, along with millions of tarantulas, a desert spring, and scorpions. I understood the power, but not the message, exactly. It felt like being invited into a cave by an ancient eccentric hermit who had something he wanted to offer. Who is this Mr. Fissuratus, and how does one interact?
    In places named after numbers, Don Cam. said it made a guy crazy, but I suspect he may have had it confused with A. Retusus, which has a bad reputation.
    posted by:

    Ariocarpus fissuratus:

    Though it contains no mescaline it is considered by the Tarahumara to be more powerful than L. williamsii and is used by them as a narcotic and magical plant. That this plant is considered stronger than L. williamsi is rather impresive considering its minimal alkaloid composition. It is often made into a drink which it is said causes robbers to be powerless to steal anything. Also used to remedy fevers and ease rheumatic pains. I am aware of one modern account of an individual who ingested a tea made from the cacti with a couple friends. His report states very narcotic, but non-hallucinogenic, effects and that one individual with severe neck pain had felt relief. It is often called "sunami," "hikuli sunami," "chautle," "peyote cimarron" (wild peyote), or "living rock," and is considered a "false peyote." 1/P, 2, 5/P, 9, 7/P, 8/P, 10/P, 4/P

    Hordenine N-methyltyramine N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine

    SUNAMI: This plant, ARIOCARPUS FISSURATUS, has been used in folkoric medicine of Mexico and southwestern USA. It is believed to be more potent than peyote and is used in the same manner as that cactus or made into an intoxicating drink. Among some tribes it is known as Chaute (a generic term for Ariocarpus species), living rock, or dry whiskey. The latter name, however, is often used for peyote and other psychoactive cacti. There are two varieties of A. fissuratus: var. lloydii and var. fissuratus. Both have about the same phytochemical makeup. The plant contains mostly hordenine, less N-methyl-tyramine and some N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine. Two other species, A. kotschoubeyanus also known as Pata De Venado or Pezuna De Venado, and A. trigonus also contain these alkaloids.

    Ariocarpus
    According to the classification by Anderson (1964) the genus Ariocarpus contains six species in two subgenera. All of them occur primarily in the Chihuahuan Desert from the Rio Grande to the Mexican Plateau (Benson 1982). This group’s uses are actually very interestingly related to the uses of Peyote (Lophophora williamsii). By far the most famous of these species is Ariocarpus fissuratus, which is often called sunami or peyote cimarron (Schultes, 1970). In regards to the uses of this plant, there seems to be some confusion in not only the Indians but in the recorders. This so called confusion is based on a few findings.
    The first reports were from Lumholtz (1902), the Norwegian ethnographer who traveled to this region early in the century. His informers in the Tarahumara Indians told him that A. fissuratus was used in a similar way as peyote and is considered to be more powerful. Schultes (1970) likewise found that A. fissuratus is a common narcotic and asserted that it is stronger than true peyote. These stories, however, conflict with Gennet and Zingg (1935) who stated that this species was considered ineffective by the Tarahumara. Although, they noted that the Indians still hold it sacred, for it was communicated to them that those who abuse it will die.

    The confusion that arose in regards to the actual effect and usage of these species of Ariocarpus maybe confounded by their similarity to each other. For instance, Furst (1971) in a study on the Huichol Indians, reported that they know of a related species, Ariocarpus retusus. According to the account A. retusus is known as tsuwiri, or the ‘false peyote’. Tsuwiri reportedly causes undesirable psychological effects, ‘because it is capable of sorcery and deception.’ Whether or not the psychological effect truly is bad or not is unclear, because later is states that true Huichols do not eat this plant. Only the deceived and evil Huichols will consume the plant. Thus, it implies that those that eat the plant are already to some degree psychologically “impure.” In any case, the chemistry of the plant can be analyzed to determine the active ingredients. It contains hordenine, N-methyltryamine in fairly small amounts (about 0.02 percent) and traces of N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine, and N-methyl-4-B- phenethylamine. Aside from these alkaloids, it also contains a flavone called retusin (3,3',4',7-tetramethoxy-5-hydroxyflavone). However, some have claimed that these constituents seem in too small of doses to ever cause a psychological effect (Gottlieb 1997). Some controlled scientific studies are clearly needed to unravel this mystery.

    In addition to A. retusus and A. fissuratus there are 3 others reportedly used: these include A. kotschoubeyanus and A. trigonus, both which contain the same alkaloids as A. fissuratus (mostly hordenine, less N-methyl- tyramine and some N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine), and A. agavoides which must have a very minute amount of psychoactive alkaloids, for it is consumed as a sweet by locals in some areas of Mexico such as Magueyitio (Gotlieb 1997).

    ARIOCARPUS RETUSUS SCHEIDW. - Cactaceae (Peyote Cimarron/Tsuwiri)
    --------------------------

    RITUAL EMPLOYMENT:

    This cactus has only little to do with the real Peyote. By some Indian
    tribes it's called Tsuwiri which means "False Peyote" since it has similar
    effects. By some tribes it's also called chautle or chaute.
    The Tarahumara Indians tell that Ariocarpus is stronger than Peyote and they
    use it in their rituals. Other Indian tribes like the Huichol's tell that
    Ariocarpus is a plant of the devil and that it's really dangerous to use.
    Some tribes tell that the impure man who searchs peyote finds the false
    peyote and goes mad, or at least has a bad trip. There are also other species
    of Ariocarpus which are ritually employed, for example Ariocarpus Fissuratus
    which is called Sunami and considered stronger than Peyote. If I find more
    informations I will cover these cactii's in a future release.

    USAGE:

    I don't think it's a very good recreational drug, first we don't know a lot
    about it and second I think for any normal person it would be quite expensive
    to buy the needed amount of cactii's, but it may be worth trying if you have
    the oppurtunity. The cactus may be chewed fresh or dried, probably it may
    be also brewed in a tea. Start with low doses.

    ACTIVE PRINCIPLES:

    The active principles of A.Retusus are several Phenylethylamine derivates:
    Hordenine, N-Methyltyramine (0.02%) and trace amounts
    N-methyl-3,4-dimethoxy-B-phenethylamine and N-methyl-4-B-phenethylamine.
    A substance called Retusine (3,3',4',7-tetramethoxy-5-hydroxytlavon) is
    also contained. An interesting thing about Ariocarpus retusus is that
    pharmacologically the alkaloid content is too low in order to be
    psychoactive.

    EFFECTS:

    Not much is known, although the effects are reported to be similar to those
    of Mescaline.

    DANGERS:

    Unfortunately I'm not able to tell about the dangers of the A.Retusus use,
    but I think there are some risks since the Huichol tell that this cactus is
    evil. I think Trichoreus Pachanoi or Lophophora Williamsii (Anhalonium
    Lewinii - Peyote) is the better and safer way to use cactii's, however I know
    people who want to try everything once.

    SOURCES:

    This cactus, like peyote grows in rocky deserts, I was able to spot
    an exemplar at Londons Kew Gardens. You may also able to buy it at some
    greater gardener shop but I only suppose. For sure you can order Ariocarpus
    retusus, Ariocarpus fissuratus and other species of Ariocarpus from Horus
    botanicals, from Ariocarpus fissuratus you can also get entire plants
    (approx. 10 years old). Unfortunately Ariocarpus is a very, very slow
    growing cactus and needs years to mature.

    Hordenine is a potent phenylethylamine alkaloid with antibacterial and antibiotic properties produced in nature by several varieties of plants in the family Cactacea.
     
    1. 3/5,
      great info
      Sep 11, 2006
  7. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

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    Bongo made a tea with a large speciman once (20cm) and ingested about 1/2.

    The effects were similar to a 2,5-DMA. Rather speedy and very awake/aware. Some peripheral imagery was noted of a PEA-type. Effects lasted 8-10 hours.

    Out of respect for the cactus, it was not repeated.