New Zealand - Article: Your Views: Have drugs been wrongly demonised? (NZ)

Discussion in 'Drug Policy Reform & Narco Politics' started by ~lostgurl~, May 12, 2007.

  1. ~lostgurl~

    ~lostgurl~ Platinum Member & Advisor Donating Member

    Reputation Points:
    Dec 23, 2004
    from Australia
    Your Views: Have drugs been wrongly demonised?

    March 19, 2007
    NZ Herald

    Drug laws are driven by "moral panic" says a new study which concludes that most drugs have been wrongly "demonised". An independent study also recommended the setting up of "shooting galleries" where users can inject drugs safely.

    The two year study by the Royal Society for the Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce, or RSA argued that "whether we like it or not, drugs are and will remain a fact of life".

    This forum debate has now closed. Here is a selection of your views on the topic.

    Yes I would have to agree with the idea of setting up "shooting galleries" for drug users but I don't think the concept should just stop there.Personally I would like to see centres set up for voluntary euthanasia so people who genuinely wanted to die could go along there to be helped to end there own life. In fact I would have to say that opening a centre like that for assisted suicide should definitely be given priority over opening up one for people who just wanted to experience the effects and joys of having mind altering drugs pumped into their sorry systems.
    Really, I do think we truly need to get our priorities right over this one instead of wasting precious taxpayer dollars on underdogs and losers who just want to float on clouds in heaven all day instead of bearing the drudge of modern day society.

    I believe that marijuana should be decriminalised. The amount of time and money that the government spend on finding the people e.g. "growers" "tinnie houses" is amazing, that money could be better spent in finding real criminals. I would also like to note that while this column is about 'Demonising' drugs does more harm than good; many of you have written in doing just that, demonising drugs. For those of you out there that have not experienced taking drugs, what gives you the right to even comment on this topic? You cant just say that all drugs are bad or even different categories are bad. It is the things that some people do in the business of drugs that are the bad things, if you take away the business aspect and turn them into legal business then you will take away the illegal crimes with it as you would be able to report to the police when crimes happen, e.g. you get ripped off. Most of the views I have read seem to think that P is "evil" well that is just not the case. These people you read about in the news that were on "P"' when they created these horrible crimes would have in all likelihood done the same crime straight, it is the people not the drugs that are the problem. I have been a regular user of P for 7 years and it hasnt changed me or effected my life negatively at all, I have never become angry of violent, I have never hurt anyone and have never committed a crime other than doing drugs, I don't have mood swings and I live a great life. If we want to stop the crimes that are happing the best way would be to de-criminalize drugs and get the profits away from the criminals then there would be nowhere near as much crime as there is.

    My partner was also a frequent cannabis user for many years, but without the mood swings, which I think was possibly because I did not hassle him about it. I would rather he was doing that than drinking regularly. I had no trouble getting pregnant. Twice. Two lovely lively intelligent inquisitive children, one an adult now, the other in his teens.

    My husband was a frequent user of marijuana,which I strongly disapproved. He used all the standard excuses that you hear about decriminalizing cannabis. While he was not violent he did get moody & but it down to work pressure .We decided to start a family and after three years of trying with no result had some tests done and found my husband's fertility was less than normal. He gave up his habit and was retested after 3 months-his fertility had increased by 500 per cent-his memory has improved and he does not have the mood swings he used to have. We are now expecting our first child.

    Kirk Muse
    It seems to me that the question that needs to be asked is: Should marijuana and other recreational drugs remain completely unregulated, untaxed and controlled by criminals? Only legal products of any kind can be regulated, taxed and controlled by any government agency.In 1933, we in the United States re-legalised the drug alcohol. It was not because they decided that alcohol was not so bad after all. But rather because of the crime and corruption that its prohibition caused. When alcohol was re-legalised in 1933, the U. S. murder rate declined for 10 consecutive years. So far we in the U. S. are not smart enough to learn from this experience.

    I have seen too many people seriously damaged by their use of illegal drugs over the years to be able to support legalisation or condone their use. Having said that, I have spent the last 20 years taking prescribed and legal heavy duty drugs with debilitating side effects that are literally keeping me alive, and ironically have nearly killed me on a few occasions thanks to irresponsible prescribing practices by specialists who do not have a clue about what they are prescribing. I've also wound up addicted to benzodiazapines ( class C drugs without a prescription) which are sometimes used for the condition I have, due to not being informed beforehand of the potential for addiction so not having any say in the matter. This problem is sadly wide spread. I have never touched any type of illegal drug, but if the "experts" are doing just as much damage legally with drugs that are probably more toxic -and sometimes just as addictive- then maybe taking up dope would be safer.

    Drugs do not kill people. Drug laws kill people.This might seem hard to accept to those raised with strict opposition to all drugs, but the difficulty of obtaining well-made, good quality drugs is what causes someone to sniff glue, use dirty heroin, or take a bad ecstasy pill. Yes, some are dangerous in the wrong are cars. Mankind could benefit from the access to higher thought that famous users throughout the ages have experienced. When will we feel we are ready to grow up and enjoy personal freedom?

    The emphasis is that drugs generally are bad and the underlying statement is "illegal drugs" yet the Government and big business corporations are against illegal drugs as their drugs eg; cigarettes, alcohol, prescription drugs are okay. Marijuana needs to be given the same laws as alcohol, it was only the Dupont company that got marijuana outlawed so that their synthetic products would be marketed over hemp and hemp oil. By-products such as marijuana oil is dangerous from the solvents used to make it aka isopropyl alcohol, is carcinogenic. Hydroponic- grown marijuana is contaminated with chemical growth products. To legalise marijuana is the way to make it less dangerous for the gangs profiteering from it and they do it with chemicals anyway. Any kind of speed, ecstasy or other kind of home manufactured chemical drug is definitely needing a very long time in good has come out of using P. Yet prescription drugs can be a nightmare through abuse and even in the medical profession experiments with "new drugs" are still used on terminal patients most times without their knowledge. All in all, does any government really care? Llaws are introduced all the time using marijuana as the crime to invoke violation against our rights. and on one last note...who is the victim when a joint is lit up?

    Regarding drug laws: Drug abuse is a health issue not a legal issue when will we realise that abusers need help, not incarceration. Prohibition did not work with alcohol. Why would it work for cannabis? Many cannabis users, myself included, consume in a similar fashion to drinkers. ie responsibly, in moderation and after work. The difference being that if I get caught with cannabis, I run the risk of criminal penalties which could have a dramatic affect on the rest of my and my families life. I have made this decision because I like cannabis more than alcohol, Should not I have the right to make that decision? Over the last 20 years I have smoked cannabis regularly, completed my undergraduate degree, been constantly employed and am undertaking post graduate studies.

    Bryan S.
    This is in regards to Ollies response. In it, he stated that he had just recently seen the movie Traffic, and he points out how drugs ruin everyone who are involved with them. I would merely like to point out how ignorant this deduction is. It's a sensationalized production of the media - hardly "proof" or "scientific evidence" that drugs should be criminalized.
    And the whole emphasis of decriminalization is not to de-emphasize their dangers; drugs still pose threats. It is acknowledged that many of the dangers of drugs are created in the black markets that sell them. When a drug dealer is forced to use secret channels to sell his product, he is free to sell whatever he wants. In order to make the greatest profit, he can cut any one given product (MDMA, for example) with other, cheaper substances that may be more dangerous. Consider this: a responsible, recreational cocaine user buys some "cocaine" from a dealer. But it turns out that this cocaine mostly contains phenacetin, a painkiller that was taken off the market in some countries because of links with kidney failure (source:
    This drug experience turns deadly not because of the original intent, but because of the back alley means the user was forced to acquire his drug. If drugs were decriminalized, they could be subject to the standards that all drugs (advil, caffeine, benadryl) are subject to. Drug abuse, of course, should be reprimanded, with rehab and the likes. And if a crime is committed while on drugs, the penalty should be increased (high driving = drunk driving, etc). But throwing someone in jail for possessing a little marijuana or an ecstasy pill is irresponsible allocation of our law enforcement and legal system.

    Alan Wilkinson
    Those who believe drugs must be outlawed have got exactly the outcome they deserve - rampant irresponsible abuse and escalating violent crime. I just hope they get mugged before the rest of us who want to do something more constructive about it.

    Andrew Atkin
    If a woman can kill her baby through an abortion because it is "her" body, then should not we be able to take drugs because it is "our" body?

    John Thomas
    Interesting to see the demonization of marijuana and marijuana consumers here. If you're going to discuss it, you need to seperate the myths from the facts.
    --and should probably know why/how it was made "illegal" in the first place.

    Brett Le Mouton
    If anyone took the time to research the vast history of the drugs in the world, they would see just how long they have been around without completely destroying society. What has changed is the culture, which now assumes that anyone who touches a drug is a fiend, addict, immoral, scum, backstabbing freak who will do anything to get their fix. This is incorrect! People forget the difference between using and abusing - a drug being illegal which is used, does not automatically mean its drug abuse. No drug is 100 per cent safe. There is not a single drug in this world that does not carry some risk with its usage. Alcohol prohibition did not work, neither will any kind of prohibition. Prohibition ignores the nature of reality, which is that certain people will and do use drugs. All prohibition has done is enable gangs to make a great profit, made more potent drugs attractive to dealers and users (crack and meth are great examples of the Iron Law of Prohibition), made drugs more readily available to your children (despite popular belief, it does not protect your children - drug dealers never ask for ID), made drugs more expensive and less pure (less pure drugs means higher risks of death and injury, which is ironic considering prohibition seems to think it reduces death) and taken the control of the drug market out of the hands of the very people who falsely believe they have control of it, and actually increases crime (gang wars over drug supply, people trying to protect their crops and so on).Zero tolerance policies dont do jack to lower drug use, supply or prevent people from using drugs. Period.

    Chris Winn
    "Drugs" should be decriminalised in my opinion. A young girl died recently in Australia because the pill she took, which she believed contained MDMA, actually contained PMA - a highly toxic substance. Had the government not outlawed MDMA this young girl would still be alive.This is truly tragic to me. Illegal drugs are still available through the black market which cuts corners and results in unnecessary deaths like Annabelles. I believe our drug laws are outdated and not in keeping with a sensible and wise society.
    To the doctor who wrote in, who was attacked by a P user, I am sorry you had this nasty experience. Keep in mind this attack happened while P is illegal.P is not the same as psychedelics, mdma and cannabis....drugs which have the potential for medical benefit. While P may not have any redeeming features perhaps regulation of it too would reduce the desperation and depths of depravation which its unfortunate abusers can suffer. New Zealand Hemp(which contain no drugs I e THC) growers are prevented by retarded red tape(Food Standards Australia/NZ) from utilising 80 per cent of their harvest. 20 per cent is turned into Hemp Seed Oil (incidentally and interestingly containing the perfect ratio of essential fatty acids for humans). The rest cannot be sold despite being a human grade food which also means New Zealand loses out on a host of potential biomedical benefits from growing hemp crops, such as the removal of untreated chemical residuals and the lowering of nitrogen levels.

    Mark Campbell
    As a youth worker of 20 years in South Auckland I think drugs deserve all the bad press they get. I have seen many young lives go down the tubes and conversely seen many young lives restored as they are helped to kick habits by people in the community. Smoking and alcohol are only slightly down the scale from drugs but are still huge problems in their own right. At the core of the problem are deeper issues than the drugs etc though. Inevitably they are the symptom of issues in poeples lives that need more than just tighter laws. However the laws can serve to reduce the number of people turning to drugs to cope with problems they find hard to face.

    First of all, I would like to point out how broad and vague the term "drugs" is. To the average person, a "drug" is automatically bad... And unfortunately that means any chemical that has been labelled a drug is assumed to be bad, and reckless to consume. To put marijuana in the same category as methamphetamine is like saying a game of marbles is the same as a Super 14 rugby match. Completely different players, rules and equipment. A different field entirely. Our media love to pin the blame of "P" on any crime. Sure, the criminal may very well be a P user but this constant reminder to our ignorant public is indeed demonising methamphetamine, and consequently any other 'drug' along with it. I am a frequent marijuana smoker, and I also enjoy using LSD. However both these substances are deemed unsafe, through naivety more than anything else. Neither LSD nor cannabis has ever deserved to be flamed by the public, government and media... No deaths have been brought by these "drugs" as people like to call them. I believe there is great hope for these chemicals in the strenghtening of our minds and communities, alongside similar illegal and demonised 'drugs' such as MDMA, Mescaline, mushrooms etc.
    These drugs are still available. They are there for anyone to take, however we are forced to get them through dangerous channels, such as gangs and criminals - paying them extortionate amounts of money which they no doubt go on to purchase weapons with and who knows what else. Our government are not achieving anything from prohibition, they are ruining our country.

    Cannabis has - as a consequence so has medical cannabis. ... One of the most effective supportive medication for many and varied medical complications. Only those who have no cause to require its medical properties can question its merit. But unfortunately those who have and do gain by its use cannot speak out for fear of the legal implications. Even special interest groups rely on Pharmaceutical and Govt funding so refrain from upsetting them. As five year user of medpot , I can personally attest it works for me.

    The demonization of drugs is a tool used by those who prohibit substances to gain public support. The research conducted by prohibitionists is always slanted towards their stance so as to deceive the public.Any research done outside their realms is seen as coming from hoons or conspiracy theorists. The US/UN 'War on Drugs' isn't really a war on drugs, its a war on drug profits. The UN allows a certain percentage of Opium to continue to be produced legally for the pharmaceutical industry.Cannabis is the new target for pharmaceutical companies, previously our politicians said cannabis had no medicinal properties but since a pharmaceutical company has approached them, suddenly it can be used as a medicine.
    Prohibition in this country means a drug market controlled by the black market, a market that doesn't care what age the buyer is, legalising and regulating drugs will remove them from children's hands. It appears no matter what evidence we produce supporting our claims our government has a secret agenda to keep it illegal to benefit the pharmaceutical industry. The two politicians in particular involved in this are both minority parties with agreements under coalition with Labour, they constitute a small proportion of voters yet get to control the majority.

    John Thomas
    The "war on drugs" is just another name for prohibition. It is primarily about marijuana, the most widely used "illegal" drug. Prohibition did not work with alcohol, and it certainly will never work against marijuana, which is non-addictive and any times less harmful than alcohol. The fact is, the more people use marijuana instead of alcohol, the better off individuals, and society as a whole, will be. Marijuana prohibition is simply a monstrous fraud that makes money for many powerful people - law enforcement, prisons, drug-testing, pharmaceutical and alcohol industries that do not want the competition, and all their related industries. Plus, it is a powerful tool used by oppressive governments to control minorities and the poor. These are the forces keeping the Inquisition steaming on and destroying millions of lives. Wake up people! This is the biggest con game ever perpetrated on the planet!
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  2. ~lostgurl~

    ~lostgurl~ Platinum Member & Advisor Donating Member

    Reputation Points:
    Dec 23, 2004
    from Australia
    Part 2, Article: Your Views: Have drugs been wrongly demonised?

    We read these comments,(Drug laws are driven by "moral panic" says a new study which concludes that most drugs have been wrongly "demonised".) and can only wonder where the writer has been living for the decade or so? Try living with a family member who started smoking pot at age 14. Innocent enough you thought but over a four year period, the "high" obviously wasnt enough so the strength and type of drugs changed until he was mainlining P. It is not "moral panic" when you watch one of your own loved children self destruct and go from a caring well rounded human being to something bordering on evil, then you know what the consequences of drug taking are. The grief and heartbreak to those around the drug taker are enormous - a fact that doesnt seem to bother him because he has become so selfish that unless he can scam something for his own personal gratification, family members are treated like a door-mat. This is a brief inight into a personal experience and know lot of other people who have children that have become almost leaches (by way of crime etc)upon society and wonder where they, the parents, went wrong! You dont have to be Einstein to figure that one. As far as setting up "shooting Galleries" go. well, I am lost for words and struggle to comprehend the thought processes of some people. And we have squatters in Parliament who condone legalisation of some of the so called "soft drugs". The is no such thing as a "soft drug" - you only have to read the Monday Herald each week to see the awful damage drugs have cause over the previous weekend.

    Richard McGrath
    Firstly, as a doctor who works for a local methadone treatment centre, I have seen too many times to count the damage that people do to themselves with drugs. I repeat: the damage people do to themselves with drugs - through their own freely chosen actions. None of the "addicts"I see are automatons lacking in self-control. Every time they self-medicate they have to make a conscious choice to do so. The whole concept of "addiction" is a cop-out for people unwilling to take personal responsibility for their own actions who commit violent crimes.
    Secondly, I think people should be allowed to put what they like into their own bodies, as long as they accept responsibility for the consequences thereof. Violent crime is quite rightly outlawed, but people who smoke a joint or inject opioid narcotics without hurting others should be left alone. Drug users as a rule do not commit crimes against others, although the high price of illegal drugs
    A very worthwhile read on the subject is an online book by Peter McWilliams, who died after inhaling his own vomit when he was forced by the US federal government to stop using cannabis for control of nausea when terminally ill with cancer:
    It is my view that all drug use by adults should be legalised immediately. Note this doesnt condone or normalise drug use, in the same way that legalising other minority acivities such as the Christian religion doesnt condone or normalise it. The same subculture that use drugs will continue to use them if legalised, but will be less inhibited in asking for help if they come to grief. The gangs that control the drug trade will be undercut by large retail traders that will sell high quality low cost product. Selling drugs to children should remain illegal, for the same reasons that sexual contact between adults and children should remain illegal.
    Just because you might not use strong mind altering drugs yourself, that is not a reason for stopping other adults from doing so if they want to. That said, drug users just have to accept that there is no such thing as a free lunch, that actions have consequences, and that high-risk activities have associated morbidity and mortality.

    Get rid of all victimless crimes, drug crimes being the case in point. The government has no business in what I or anyone else puts in or does with their own body.

    I watched the film "Traffic" a little while back. From start to finish in every scene, plot device, character and dialogue, the message was so clear that it felt like it was physically smashing you in the face: Drugs are hell. Anyone that underestimates their danger, their potential to ruin the life of an otherwise healthy human being and the lives of those that love them, is utterly deluded.

    It has been said that around 30 per cent of NZers use or have used marijuana. If this is the case and police where doing a proper job; 1/3 of NZers should now have a drug conviction. Obviously this has not and should not happen so we need to come to the realisation that marijuana use may not be ideal, but cannot be prohibited successfully. When marijuana isnt available a replacement is sort by the users and I expect the dealers involved are only too happy to provide one eg P.

    Alan Shore
    Looking back at the drug problem, it seems clear that prohibition doesnt work. All prohibition of drugs has done is to create an enormous amount of profit for those selling drugs. This profit has led to the widespread corruption of many governments. Taking away the moral issue of drugs; they are bad for you and you should not use them, allows people to treat the problem of addiction for what it is, a health issue. Look at the Netherlands, where cannabis is available legally. Has their crime rate gone up? No. Are the streets full of stoned, dangerous people? No, quite the opposite. Make drugs super cheap, so that addicts can still work and pay for their drugs. This would be much better than having addicts rob and steal to get their drug money. The prisons are filled with 70 per cent of people incarcerated due to drug or alcohol (legal drug) related offenses. This should tell us that prohibition has never worked and doesnt work now. How will we know if the War on Drugs is working? When there are no more drug users? Logic tells us this will never happen. Maybe New Zealand should quit cow towing to the US policies on drugs and do what is best for this country! Legalize drugs for adults and give true, real education so people can avoid the perils of drugs.

    Blair Anderson
    The Herald has participated in the obfuscation of what the British report really said and why its message may be very important for all New Zealanders.The National Drug Policy (review) is about to be released. NZ has taken some progressive steps in accommodating "herbals" with the "class D" initiative and may look to (if Czar on Drugs, Jim Andertonhas anything to do with the policy) seeing herbals severely restricted if not banned all together.However there is where it all falls apart. We, like the UK ascribed to the ABC classification in the vain hope ("so long as it was seen to be largely effective" - Blake Palmer Committee 1974 ) that criminalisation would eliminate the potential problems. Originally the Misuse of Drugs ACT [1975] was to be named the "Drugs, Prevention of Misuse" Bill, a more aptly named strategy had it been adopted, we could have lead the world in compassionate and restorative drug policy. Instead we inherited the disaster that is America's solution... lock em up, and throw away the key.
    Here is an excerpt from the Telegraph(UK)- it makes our NZ Expert Advisoy Committee on Drugs (EACD) look lame indeed, as it does our 'seperate the licit from illicit' national drug strategy. Lets hope next weeks (fingers crossed) NDP strategy is a realistic assessment of all that is wrong with our current pretense for a solution. Yeah Right! (Britains drug policy is not fit for purpose and is failing to cut addiction or drug-related crime, an influential study will conclude today.)

    I am saddened to see the emotive opinions offered by many people regarding this issue. Of course it's an emotive issue, but focusing on the effects of individual drugs or individual crimes is never going to help. The fact remains that in our society, some drugs are legal and cause great harm, and some drugs are illegal and cause great harm. Prohibition does not work, and simply places the supply of illegal drugs in the hands of those who will exploit the situation. It was seen with alcohol prohibition in the past, and can be seen with illegal drugs today. Ultimately, people need to take responsibility for their own actions, and for that reason it is my opinion that it would be better for these drugs to be legally available. In that situation people can use them in a safe environment, knowing that the drugs are not adulterated by anything the dealer decides to use. If such drugs are legal, there would also be better support systems for those who do become addicted. Yes, people will become addicted and lives will be ruined. That happens today with both legal and illegal drugs, and will continue to happen regardless of changes to the law.

    People will abuse anything. That doesnt mean everything should be illegal. Drug addicts can shoot peanut butter and mayonnaise if they so desire, but those things should not be illegalized. Human desire for "altered states of mind" needs to be investigated, not the products themselves; the drugs originally started off helping people -- if they became abused. It is the people who should be punished, not the drugs.

    Frank Burdett
    It would appear a great many of your correspondents want a policy of open slather on drug use in New Zealand. May God, indeed, defend New Zealand, for it is evident that those who hold the reins of power are drunk with power. But the booze-soddened, drug-induced false well-being that is portrayed by this society is the laughing stock of the worlds tourists. New Zealands image is a hazy image because not many citizens remember a New Zealand that was once a country with strong direction and strong values. It would seem that weak-minded individuals who rely on stimulants are the rising scourge. What an image of a once beautiful country and once beautiful people. What have you done? Shame on you. You deserve your politicians! Your choice or is it?

    I agree. Legalisating drug use would provide far more opportunities for effective management and control, minimise the criminal element, and encourage addicts to seek help. Prohibition is not an effective method of dealing with these substances, some of which are known to have medicinal benefits.

    NZ Native
    How many of those writers to 'Your Views' on this emotive topic have bothered to take the time to read the full text of this report? A full pdf version this document is available at
    You are obviously not qualified to offer an opinion of any serious consequence until you have read it.

    Andrew Atkin
    I have long believed that making drugs legal would solve more problems than it would create (and I personally don't use or enjoy drugs). The ideal model, I believe, is to make all drugs legal but distribute the harder drugs within a highly controlled environment. This way we will destroy the blackmarket, which, most importantly, empowers us to keep drugs away from kids (not to mention the other problems that an over-priced black-market creates, such as prostitution and crime etc.). If an informed adult wants to shun rehabilitation opportunities and kill themselves with what ever given substance, then so be it. We should focus our resources towards those who want to help themselves. Also, by distributing the hard drugs within a controlled-environment we can far better identify the people who are functioning as a menace to society and/or their families. It gives us greater power (through superior identification and control) to actively force these cases to "dry out". Again, I believe good management would prove to be much more effective than our oppressive status quo.

    Frank Perry
    The educated idiots who authored this report should come and live in my suburb where "P" and other drugs are destroying young lives. These people start off on so-called "harmless" drugs and then move on to the hard stuff. A zero tolerance policy is the only answer to this blight on society.

    Chris Doherty
    Having been addicted to the worlds most widely used drug for the past 26 years, I can safely say I know a thing or two about addiction. What I can definitely say is: the public/Government perception about alcohol and tobacco is financially based. Your Government is happily feeding off your addiction and eventually death (with outrageous taxes) whilst denying you access to health services due to the fact you are addicted. Tobacco my drug of choice, is freely available, relatively affordable if you work, yet is the most destructive devastating most addictive (even more so than heroin and ice) poisonous substance known to mankind. Yet it is legal. Another words I can pay the NZ Govt and Rothmans Tobacco (through the nose I might add) for the privilege of a slow painful death yet it is frowned on if I chose a non-sanctioned drug such as marijuana. Can someone please explain this to me? I am a little stupid and I do not get it.

    P is a scourge on society and should be banned. A P user looses control of themselves and causes pain, misery and bloodshed to others. Very much like a drunk. Cannabis does not and there is no reason for it being illegal. By being illegal, otherwise law abiding, honest people are forced to associate themselves with less than scruples individuals. When getting their cannabis, they may be offered P, stolen goods or maybe even underage sex in return for the weed.So long as alcohol is legal, there is not an argument on this earth that can convince me that cannabis should remain illegal. I have been a long time user of cannabis. I have never been fired from a job. I am a hardworking productive member of society. I never phone into work sick due to a hangover. At least not since I stopped drinking. In 1992 I had to choose between a carear in the Navy and cannabis. If I chose the Navy, I am in no doubt that I would be a raving alcoholic today rather than the hardworking, honest and affable guy that I am.

    Laws against alcohol and cigarettes should outweigh laws against marijuana, ecstasy and maybe LSD. Makes complete and utter sense.

    How many maniacs stoked up on alcohol have assaulted emergency workers? Should we lock up doctors for pushing drugs? How can a doctor claim that drugs are bad mmm kay then prescribe them? Drugs can be dangerous if misused. Guns for example are only dangerous if you point them at someone else and point the trigger. If it is a case of protecting society from so-called crazed drug addicts then anyone sipping a shandy at Christmas should be locked up for our safety. If it is a case of protecting people from themselves well let us be thorough and ban everything including McDonalds.

    David Gow
    Should remain a criminal offence. Too many crimes are drug induced. Proves people are not capable of safe private use.

    A demonisation of people by people who have little real information on the issue.

    Alan Wilkinson
    Making "P" illegal did not stop a deranged user assaulting Dr McVeigh. However, it did greatly encourage the gang underworld to market and sell it widely as possible, to as many low-lives as possible, and of course with total irresponsibility for the outcome he described. Does he really believe that would be as likely to happen if it were, for example, only available through controlled pharmacies?

    Stuart Young
    I absolutely agree that illegal drugs have been demonised and that their harm has been overstated and that we must learn to live with them. And I completely agree that drug laws should be decided on an evidence-based approach. Unfortunately the reaction from politicians is completely predictable. They will refuse to accept the evidence and say that the evidence is "wrong". There have been hundreds of research studies that have come to this conclusion - that illegal drugs do not cause as much harm as perceived wisdom and that laws should be liberalised - and politicians have ignored every one, and they will ignore this one. Politicians are monkeys. See no evil. Hear no evil.

    Some of the comments and general opinions of P users are far from the actual truth of behaviours on P. In my extensive and ongoing experience, people become artistic, talkative, and entertaining. They counsel each other in lifes daily concerns, assist each other in creating art works (not tagging, etc) and basically enjoy life on a much greater scale than in normal non drug induced situations. If the public could but only see some of the amazing artistic works done by persons high on P they would possibly encourage such Art. I am so certain a market for such incredible art exists that I intend to sell some of my own in the not too distant future.

    Robert Papesch
    A responsible society should not make it easier for people to wreck their lives by ingesting exotic chemicals. The groovy Prof. King is a loon, and medical professionals will no doubt back up that statement. Statistically, legalising an activity encourages more of it. Our binge drinking culture offers a clear indication of what sort of tragic consequences to expect if other drugs are legalised. It is fun for the comfortable middle class and the wealthy educated elites to toss around these ideas and dabble with dangerous behaviour; their resources insulate them from the worst consequences of their irresponsible deeds. It’s the poor who always suffer the most from indulging in vices that they cannot afford. Read this:

    Mark Appleyard
    It really is taking far too long for politicians of all persuasions to realise that the traditional approach to illegal drugs is totally flawed and pointless. It comes as no surprise that Conservative politicians come out against the Royal Society’s views on this issue. Their own views are largely based on total ignorance or are an attempt to appeal to middle ground voters, who have believed for far too long that using cannabis leads to addiction to harder drugs. That viewpoint was total crap in the 1960s and it is just laughable now. Yet people believe what they want to believe and remain blinkered to what is going on in society and the world at large. The irony of it all is that conservatives feel that drugs threaten the fabric of society when in fact it is the unfettered pursuit of private gain, inequalities in wealth and income, the waste of natural resources and the blatant destruction of the environment that are the real issues in this world. One wonders what they are actually worried about?
    It can not be the drugs themselves. The legal drugs tobacco and alcohol, are both addictive and kill millions of people world wide every year while alcohol is also responsible for assaults, road carnage, domestic violence, overdose and death on a vast scale yet the conservative right feel that this is OK and that governments and companies should be allowed to peddle these products and make huge amounts of money in the process. Yet mention cannabis, ecstasy (or even party pills in NZ) and the righteous indignation soars skywards on a blazing chariot of hypocrisy and religious fundamentalist zeal. In short, the only way cannabis will kill you is if 1 kg of it hits you on the head from a great height. Ecstasy is not addictive and the only way you will get into difficulties with it, is if you drink too much or too little water while out clubbing. The risk intensifies if you use it with alcohol, as while both can lead to dehydration, alcohol will screw up your judgement. Party pills? Well the government is about to make a big fat mistake on this one. But hey, what is new?
    I am tired of imbeciles making useless decisions and I really have read the governments evidence for a proposed ban on party pills and I read and re-read it and nowhere did I find a compelling argument. It was too full of what ifs and maybes. Well here is a fact: legal drugs kill millions all the time but thats OK. Two million party pills sold in NZ and how many people have died as a direct result from just using party pills? No one! As the Royal Society says, vast amounts of police time and resources are being wasted on a cause that appeals to the middle England, middle New Zealand, middle ground voter and it needs to stop. The whole issue is far too important for this kind of lame game playing. Western political leaders are liars, thugs and criminals and theres a number right now who should be standing trial in the Hague for war crimes against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. Their shallow moral crusade against illegal drugs is as outrageous as their lies which sought to justify the present conflict. While medical professionals in the western world call out for opiates as pain killers which would benefit patients, farmers and international peace alike, they are far too interested in maintaining the structure of their failing capitalist systems and their dependence on oil and the dream of mass consumerism without which, western capitalism would collapse and with it their own wealth and power. I am bored with their arguments against drugs and the same ole approach. I appeal to these governments to at least attempt to do something imaginative, something visionary and stop wasting our time, otherwise please, please go and do something else.
  3. ~lostgurl~

    ~lostgurl~ Platinum Member & Advisor Donating Member

    Reputation Points:
    Dec 23, 2004
    from Australia
    Part 3, Article: Your Views: Have drugs been wrongly demonised? (NZ)

    Colin Crook
    To support decriminalisation you have to ignore a huge amount of research contrary to your argument: "In the Netherlands, an international model for decriminalization and harm reduction, decriminalization has been associated with an increase in crime and drug use. From 1984 to 1992, cannabis use among students in the Netherlands increased 250 per cent. Between 1988 and 1993, the number of registered addicts increased 22 per cent. Also reflecting the decriminalization of marijuana, the number of marijuana addicts increased 30 per cent from 1991 to 1993 alone. As we see in the United States, the harms of increased drug use go beyond those to the user alone. Since the tolerant drug policy was instituted in the Netherlands, shootings have increased 40 per cent, hold-ups have increased 69 per cent, and car thefts have increased 62 per cent (Gunning KF. Personal communication)."

    Jim McVeagh
    Clearly, neither Professor King nor most of the people in this forum have ever been assaulted or abused by a maniac stoked up on "P". As an emergency department doctor who has, I can assure you it is a truly memorable event that will change your views on drug taking forever! Forget the moral issues. This drug and all of its cousins are blight on society, which should not be tolerated in any way.

    Caroline Jamieson
    Making drugs illegal just makes them more appealing.

    Greg Soar
    I read with interest your article regarding the demonisation of drugs. I would like to point out that it is really a demonisation of people by people who have little real information on the issue. Usually those belittling a drug user do so over a beer or wine with dinner and cannot see the hypocrisy sitting on the end of their noses. Can at least one person explain how a blackmarket is beneficial to society? To date no one seems willing to answer that and I wonder why.

    In a democracy, people have individual freedom to do whatever they want until and unless it is affecting others. Are the drugs affecting others? I think a major part of the drugs are. Parents complain of children abnormal behaviour and lack of interest in studies because of use of drugs. I know families suffering because one of their earning members has become drug-addicted and can work no more. The cost of the drugs itself is a deterrent to average to middle income families. Make it a habit, then even rich will no more be rich. The government is affected because of drug-using work-force are easily relegated to dole-earners. Drugs create many vehicle accidents (as drivers, or even as pedestrians). I agree some of the so-called drugs do not fit into that category. I would ask the Government to fully clarify the meaning of drug and the substances forming a drug.

    I think we need to get away from the demonising of drugs. It has not worked and wont work. Drugs such as cannabis (used by Queen Victoria for period pain), opium (the Brits went to war with China over supplies of Opium better known as heroin), coca (used by native Sth Americans and by Coca Cola) have been used in various societies for hundreds and hundreds of years with out any problems until in the mid 1900s when someone decided that drugs were evil. By just telling people drugs are bad is not going to stop them. It will only encourage them to see for themselves. In the USA they do have harsh penalties but its still got amongst the highest drug use rate in the world. People who are addicts do not think about consequences. Approaches to drug education and enforcement needs to be based on sound judgement and research not on moral or religious grounds. We also need to look at why people take drugs. Lets be realistic a large percentage of people who take drugs and continue to take drugs do so because they get a good buzz and great sensations and have a good time on them. How many people die from illegal drugs in NZ every year less than 10. How many die from legal drugs alcohol and tobacco every year? 200,300,400?

    "The harm comes when people with "addictive" personalities use drugs.." I do not agree. People do not start out with addictive personalities. What about when things start to go wrong in life? Experience emotional pain in loosing a loved one, divorce, losing your job or whatever and you might try and find comfort in hard drugs and get yourself addicted. It happens all too often, and if you don’t keep away from these harmless drugs, you could be next.

    Paul Savage
    It is my view indeed that many, many anti-drug laws are certainly fuelled by moral panic with scores of people simply believing everything they read in state health reports and research findings or any so-called groundbreaking research that’s handed to them. We have a very widespread, accepted drinking culture in New Zealand where alcohol is very easily accessible, regardless of age. Our Ministry of Health tells young people if you wear a condom, the chances are everything is going to be O.K. If you do not mix drinks and tell someone where you are going, you will probably be fine. I do also believe it is morally wrong to falsely report on how dangerous illegal drugs really are when scientifically and socially compared to legal ones such as alcohol and tobacco that claim millions of victims worldwide every year, by far surpassing the number of lives lost to illegal substances. Drugs always have, and always will be around wherever society exists, and in my view, lying and fear tactics discouraging their use is not the way to go.

    Daniel Jones
    Regarding drug prohibition: there has never been a public policy that has failed so spectacularly, repeatedly and consistently. It does not work, drug use does not go down, and large numbers of otherwise law-abiding, successful people have their lives ruined. Do we really want to end up like the U.S., with the largest per-capita prison population in the world? Well, we are on the way because we are the world no. 2 in this shameful statistic. The prohibitionists have had fifty years to try out their policies. They failed. It is time for a rethink.

    Keith Haigh
    The report finding by the RSA that demonising drugs does more harm than good merely states the obvious to anyone with any experience of drugs and drug users. The vast majority of users are not harmed by drug use.The harm comes when people with "addictive" personalities use drugs. People of this personality type will become addicted to either drugs (whether illegal or otherwise) or gambling. Just as most people can drink alcohol without doing themselves harm, and indeed,can even improve their health in small quantities there are those that cannot resist drinking excessively and to excess.

    That is the wildest thing I have ever heard. Tougher laws and longer sentencing , like the USA.

    The professor who claims that drugs do no harm has not experienced being raised by a parent who was a frequent user of a "harmless" drug. The mental and psychological damage done to the children (me being one of them) in terms of his behaviour while on a high cannot be measured. There is an apology the next morning but no recollection of what the apology should be for. There is the inability to hold down a job and provide a stable income for the family. Seeing the person under the influence degrades his image in the eyes of the children, and he is supposed to be the example and strongest person in their lives. No, drugs are not harmless, they are a demon.

    Chris Lewis
    Alcohol, tobocco, gambling, the "legal" drugs, and all the "illegal" drugs, work in much the same way on slightly different receptors in the brain, so clinically there is not much to separate them. Alcohol prohibition was a disaster in the USA and simply presented a revenue stream to criminally minded and violent people, without in any way preventing its supply and the same situation exists with "illegal" drug prohibition today. Additionally, prohibition, because it astronomically raises prices, inevitably leads to extremely undesirable behaviour from those with severe addictions. Essentially it leaves them with only three alternatives - stealing, prostitution or dealing in the drugs themselves.
    The only sensible solution is to follow the same sort of regime that currently operates with tobacco - control the supply to minors, prohibit advertising, tax it heavily (but not to the point that it pushes addicts into crime or prostitution) and invest these taxes in public health education so people understand the consequences of the choices they are making.
    The consumption of tobacco, surely as addictive a drug as any of the illegal ones has fallen and the reason is that presented with the facts most people will make a sensible choice. Drugs are a public health, not a criminal issue and by removing their criminal status it will also free up police resources to be spent where they are needed most - on things that are genuinely criminal like violence and theft.

    Jagannatha Suta Das
    Well we have to scare society somehow, just because people are doing it, make it right! Society needs to fill the gap in the lives of its citizens, as there are people that are using drugs to fill the emotional void to start with then getting so hooked they can no longer see or want a way out. I used to be a daily drug user and have experienced first hand at how they start of soft then end up hard! We all need to get back to basics and fulfil our spiritual side and not trying to gratify our senses with temporary means, look for something permanent.Give a man a fish, he can feed himself for a day, tech him how to fish he can feed himself for life. The same goes for living give some one freedom for one day they abuse it, teach them how to be free they live happily forever. All intoxicants should be banned, this includes alcohol. This is the biggest cause for people needing other drugs.

    One of the most harmful effects of drugs upon society is the prohibitive costs of them. A full-blown addict may go to any lengths in their pursuit of drugs. This leading to crime ranging from minor fraud & petty theft to murder. I do not condone drugs, but I do not condemn either. What I do condemn is the behaviour caused by drug addiction, including alcoholism. I object to the demonising of addicts, who suffer from an incurable, but arrestable, disease. The illegality of various substances leave addicts at the mercy of black market vendors who can freely push prices well beyond the reach of an average income. Legalising various drugs and creating safe ways to manage this will see a lot of crime drop off. It could provide government revenue for more counselling, drug education, and rehabilitation facilities. It will also decriminalise a lot of people branded for things as minor as the occasional joint. In conjunction this frees up police to move on organised and violent crime, to further protect our citizenry, rather than keep arresting many of them. If a crime has no victim, why is it a crime? We have seen prohibition fail badly and pave the way for criminal intent. We have seen Americas war on drugs, a thinly disguised veil to hide the exploitation and bombing of other countries, much like their war on terror. Bring drugs out into the light, like alcohol, a part of society that exists and will continue to do so despite the law. Stop shaming addicts and promoting conditions for secrecy and dishonesty where criminal gangs flourish. Understanding, education, compassion, aid, and knowledge. Not demonising.

    Stu Colson
    Look at any period of history, from the ancient Greeks to Inca Kings. Drug use has and always will be a part of society. It is a reflection of the total lack of imagination of modern day politicians that the current suggestion for dealing with this health issue is incarceration. Whether you are a user of not, this health issue deserves a fresh look from the point of view of ALL society. Not just a few who comment "I went to University."

    Having moved to the UK two years ago, the laws need to change. Every single person I know including a couple of my bosses from work enjoy cocaine when having a big night. Its so common over here its just crazy. But the people who use are still living completely normal lives in successful jobs. If they were to be caught in possession of a quantity for personal use it would just ruin a good persons life. We live in a world where everyone is a law breaker! Your kids teacher, your lawyer, your accountant, the bus driver, the guy next door, the guy from IT, even your doctor... its everyone.

    Yes. Most non-harmful, long standing recreational drugs [such as marijuana] should be legal so they can be controlled and regulated by the government and it would also take away the temptation of doing something that is wrong or bad, which is what attracts many people, especially young people to drugs in the first place. Having everything legal would make it easier for people with drug problems to approach rehabilitation centres and family members without having the current stigma attached. It would also take these drugs out of the black market and out of the hands of gangs, who are currently making millions of dollars every year on the sale of illegal drugs. Drugs are here to stay whether the government or anyone else likes it or not. The best thing to do is legalise it so it can be controlled and we will all save money but not clogging up the Justice System with thousands of petty drug offences every year. The money made by the government through the sale of legal drugs could even go towards proper education on sensible drug use, which is also seriously lacking in the current system and probably half the reason why we currently have so much drug abuse.

    I fully agree with everything in this article, prohibition is doing more harm than good and putting drugs in the hands of gangs. Education, not legislation. We do not need laws to protect us from ourselves.

    Absolutely. The stance on drugs in NZ is completely outdated. By disempowering people to the point they actually seek out any kind of high available (party pills, marijuana, glue, cheap alcohol...)itis little wonder drugs are used so irresponsibly and alcohol use is more akin to abuse. As much as I hate comparing nz to other countries, some good models to look at would be the French attitude to alcohol and the Dutch to drugs. Both are based on education from an early age and empowerment.

    Right on the button. The majority of people who use recreational substances from time to time are not stupid, and do not do themselves any harm. That is why we ignored the horror stories given to us at school - we knew they were exaggerating the bad, and ignoring the good. Yes, good! Improving your enjoyment of life is a good thing. And fine if people do not want to use them. But why do these people so often want to stop other people enjoying themselves? They usually claim that they are operating out of genuine concern. I would believe this if they were putting equal efforts into trying to make peanuts illegal, which kill many more people than e.g. cannabis ever will. But no, they’re not. They simply dont like other people having such a good time. Killjoys. It is an accurate description.

    Alan Wilkinson
    Drugs should be decriminalised not because they are harmless, but because criminalising them causes far more harm than good. Drugs are simply tools that can be used well or badly like all others. The user is responsible for his/her own decisions and their consequences. Criminalising drugs has immense costs to both society and drug users, puts immense wealth and power in the hands of gangs and the underworld, and greatly increases the risks and hazards of drug use.Some of those immense costs we pay wind up in the pockets of our bureaucracy and police who now form a powerful lobby for maintenance of their cash cow. The gullible public are easily frightened by scaremongering and our politicians are captive to the irrational fears of a hysterical but sizeable group of voters.So are our wallets and our freedoms.

    There are several drugs that have been victim of so called Moral Panic. Some of these drugs are harmless in comparison to alcohol and tobacco with regards to abuse, and long term effects. A scaled tolerance for drug taking is currently in effect (A,B,C classes), it is great to see. Some states in the US send you to prison for a very long time for a minimal amount of marijuana. Here, you are most likely let off if caught smoking. Perhaps analysing the danger or harmlessness of different drugs again, and looking at the wall of laws in place to deal with them would be a good thing. As a society we need to decide what is worth putting people in jail for. We need to decide what should have zero tolerance. We also need to realise that perhaps some drugs have been demonised and take another look about how we handle them. New Zealand and its government is capable of adapting, and changing for us as we change. If it is not, then I guess I will go legally drink my self silly.
  4. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    Jul 13, 2006
    from U.S.A.
    Wow, nice to be able to easily compare/contrast a wide range of opinions on the subject. Alot of reading here, but I like the large number of succinct opinions. Thanks for posting this!
  5. svenghali

    svenghali Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    Mar 5, 2007
    30 y/o from U.S.A.
    I really enjoyed reading this post.
    People tend to rely on misinformation and exaggeration to justify drug laws, like what the first guy has to say. There's speed limits on highways, laws ensuring the safety of firearms (at least to some degree), and alcohol is legal. All three of those things have the potential to more injurious than marijuana, psychedelic mushrooms, LSD, DMT, MDMA, etc, the list goes on.

    Many say that it is more difficult for a society to be productive in an environment where drugs are legal, and this may be true to some extent. An Epicurean binge on anything will hurt somebody. Everything in moderation, use your brain.
  6. elpatto

    elpatto Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    Aug 7, 2008
    28 y/o from Australia
    Very interesting read. It's great to see how misinformed/delusional some people can be, particularly users or pro legalisations. Realy nice contrast of opinions, some worried, some rallying, some very defensive.

    It's a pitty those silly Kiwis have to use absolutly stupid names for everything. P??? As if thats a good name for meth. Like calling pot I or something stupid like that. Must be this thick Australian blood running through my veins that makes me instinctively critisize our neighbours and rivals.

    But seriosly hows that guy up there ^^ who's all like "Lsd and marijuana never killed anyone", maby Lsd is like fish oil in NZ, ha.

    Take it easy anyway people.
  7. cosmicruler

    cosmicruler Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    Jan 13, 2008
    36 y/o from burkina_faso
    "It's a pitty those silly Kiwis have to use absolutly stupid names for everything. P??? As if thats a good name for meth. "

    What other names have Kiwis come up with for everything?
    Pavalova,Pharlap,Split ends,Robbie Deans.....hahaha.(give us a break you wining,thieving Australians)

    maybe educate 1s self on the matter at hand before passing opinion and casting prejudice against ALL New Zealanders,especially when 1 comes from a country that has been formed from a prison !

    Although I agree the use of the term 'P' or Pure is not the most thought out,or best sounding name ever,"P" has become an epidemic in NZ very much thanks to the marketing of some of the bigger gangs and criminal organisations !
    Alas it was they the gangs etc who coined the term "P", standing for Pure Methamphetamine,and it is they the gangs who have profited hugely from this (genius?) marketing ploy....

    How many millions $+ has swielpatto made from re-naming or marketing a drug recently??

    "maby Lsd is like fish oil in NZ, ha."


    if this was a joke swim missed it.
    I believe LSD in NZ would be the same as anywhere in the world.
  8. elpatto

    elpatto Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    Aug 7, 2008
    28 y/o from Australia
    Wow, was realy just joking man, but good to know that everything is under screwtiny here.

    Buddy, I have probably like 40 close friends from NZ and I toured there for like 2 1/2 months playing rugby when I was 15. I have nothing but friendly competition with a New Zelander generally, not to mention in Australia we have the same type feeling for people a state over. Now I, in a joking fashion (Sorry if it did not come off that way) called Kiwi's "silly", you in your responsed called them theiving and something else. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black man, what realy sepparates anglo-New Zelanders and anglo-Australians? Think about it we have been grouped together for clear over 100 years, ANZAC anyone?

    Next, are you sure that the marketing ploy of what is a extremely addictive drug is what set it to boom? It's not like legit marketing man and what dealer won't say "My shits the best man, 100 percent pure". Honestly I would even go out on a limb to assume that it is a very small percentage of "P" that is actualy pure and anyone with the slighest bit of experience with methanphet's can tell almost instantly.

    Peace out brother.

    Oh yea and that thing about lsd was a joke, While its very difficult to overdose from the chemical lsd, it HAS caused, almost as a direct reason, alot of deaths. It comes back to the arguement that the fall didn't kill somebody, hitting the floor did. Not to mention how many people have had horrible effects from lsd, often permanent and quite significant. Now I can't claim that Lsd is much more dangerous then half the things that people poison them selves with, but SWIM can tell you from personal experiance, that grouping Lsd and marijuana is like grouping apples and oranges. Effects are barely comparable even at very high doses of either.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2008
  9. cosmicruler

    cosmicruler Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    Jan 13, 2008
    36 y/o from burkina_faso
    I was also answering with a touch of sarcasm!
    And having lived in Aussie twice,is fond of a little trans tasman rivalry!!!(did swiyou catch the last bledisloe cup match by the way)hahaha....go the ALLBLACKS
    The comment regarding thieving is in relation to an advert that plays on Nz television that lists NZ things that australia has now claimed as there own and was as such a joke!!!phar lap(race horse),splitends(band),robbie deans(new aussie rugby coach),pavalova(dessert) etc etc....

    In regards to the actual topic at hand,swim DOES believe the marketing("P") has been a genius touch by a sophisticated group of criminals.
    I mean EVERY1 nos that METH is bad for you right??every1s seen the before and after pictures on the net right?
    But how many people(esp say 5-10 years ago,b4 media hype) new what 'P',or Pure,or 'Burns' were???(esp people from low socio economic backgrounds and kids etc)
    I believe ALOT of people became addicted to this 'new' drug without even fully knowing what the hell it actually was...I has seen it 1st hand(people getting on the 'burns' for a year or 2,and when asked what exactly 'burns' was/is,they had NO idea becasue thats all they knew it by)!!!!

    Thats all swims point was/is and having lived through and seen the perils caused by 'P',Meth,Ice...(whatever swiys wana call it) swim still believes the criminals that marketed/pushed this shit did a very good job.
    I think the number of meth labs being busted weekly,the huge upsurge in violent crime,and the amount of people swim nos personally who either are or have been addicted to meth in NZ is testament to the fact!!!
    Without living in NZ and seeing 1st hand the damage it has and is causing our society I feel its very hard for some1 to actually pass judgement.

    my 2c.

  10. salviablue

    salviablue Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    Aug 31, 2008
    from U.K.
    My personal favourite
    And what the hell is the "P" constantly referred to?

    Ahh, sorry just read the last post, is it methamphetamine?