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Bioavailability of Hydromorphone via insulfation vs rectal

Discussion in 'Hydromorphone' started by Sklander, Oct 26, 2006.

  1. Sklander

    Sklander Silver Member

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    My pet iguana obtained a few 4MG Hydromorphone pills. The iguana wants to ingest them either by snorting or administering them rectally. Any comments or preferences from other pets? What are the bioavailabilities of each? Which would make more sense, as far as effeciency goes?
     
  2. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes Newbie

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    According to this study, my fellow SWIMmer, hydromorphone has a rectal bioavailability of 36.33 +/- 29.60%, which is lower than the oral bioavailability of 51.35 +/- 29.29%. Now granted, these are HUGE ranges, which could make accurate dosing a bit difficult. Yet another study states that the intranasal bioavailability is 54.4%.

    SWIM is confused as to why the rectal bioavailabilty is lower than the intranasal or oral, but please do not up the rectal dose substantially if SWIY goes this route, it could end badly. Snorting is actually the only way SWIM ever felt anything from this drug, when he consumed it orally he never even felt a hint of a buzz, even with a relatively low tolerance.

    SWIM's advice would be to start with 4 mg intranasal, it appears to be more efficacious than rectal in this case. But as SWIM recalls, SWIY knows his dosage with this drug pretty well.
     
  3. Sklander

    Sklander Silver Member

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    SWIM crushed up the two pills and divided them into several lines. SWIM insulfated the substance at 935PM central time.

    SWIM will report back when effects begin.

    :)

    Interesting study. SWIM just doesn't buy the fact that Hydromorphone isn't more like 80 - 90 per cent bioavailable via rectal administration. Isn't Morphine around 90 per cent when taken rectally? These figures just don't add up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2006
  4. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes Newbie

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    Morphine according to the studies SWIM found when he typed in "morphine rectal bioavailability" only seem to be in the area of 27% bioavailability! SWIM is going to go tinker with the bioavailability page because 27% seems quite low. However the oral bioavailability of morphine is really low too, so anything with fast and more efficient absorption like smoking or blugging would have a marked increase.

    Hydromorphone could have a low bioavailability rectally for reasons SWIM doesnt know of...he agrees that it seems a bit odd, but so far he hasn't found any evidence stating that it would be more in the range that SWIY suggests! SWIM thinks that hydromorphone might just not be very well absorbed no matter what route one uses, which may be part of the reason that he has never gotten much from it, having been more experienced with the very bioavailable oxycodone and fentanyl.
     
  5. Sklander

    Sklander Silver Member

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    SWIM is quite unimpressed with the 8MG he just insulfated. He has a nice warm buzz, but little euphoria.

    SWIM has a lot of experience with this drug via rectal administration and MUCH PREFERS this method. SWIM is going to do 8MG more hydromorphone rectally in about ten minutes. SWIM will report back.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2006
  6. Sklander

    Sklander Silver Member

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    Blasted off into heaven. SWIM loves hydromorphone.
     
  7. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes Newbie

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    Interesting that rectal works better than insufflation for SWIY when the papers SWIM read seemed to state otherwise (counterintuitively, though. SWIM actually agrees with SWIY that rectal SHOULD be more bioavailable).

    If SWIY ever finds some papers or sites stating different numbers, please add the bioavailabilities and source of information to the opiate bioavailabilities thread!

    Good to hear your SWIM is enjoying it. As always have fun and be safe! SWIY seems to have his head on straight when it comes to judging how much to use, so really alot of SWIM's warnings are for opiate-naive readers.
     
  8. Sklander

    Sklander Silver Member

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    SWIM won't insulfate hydromorphone again. The total dosage that SWIM took was 16MG; 8MG insulfated to start and 8MG rectally about thirty minutes after and the rectal dose is about the only thing SWIM felt.

    SWIM is still nodding right now, and has since taken 2MG alprazolam so that he can fall into a deep sleep. Overall, the experience was good, and SWIM learned that insulfating Hydromorphone sucks.

    Mabye SWIM will try a dose of 16MG rectally next. SWIM thinks that would rock his world.

    Thanks for all the help, SWIForthesevenlakes.
     
  9. fiveleggedrat

    fiveleggedrat Palladium Member

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    Thank god for this thread. Swim just typed up a whole, new two page thread asking this question, and luckily found this before posting it and being a "Not using the search engine" newb :p

    I'll restate here, since there is only one report here about it:

    Intranasal Vs. Rectal?

    Swim has done nasal but not rectal. Swim is considering doing rectal with a 6mg dose he has obtained.



    Experiences comparing the two would be GREAT! I really want to flesh out the discussion/info on Intranasal Vs. Rectal hydromorphone.

    fiveleggedrat added 1262 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

    Well well. Swim has a report to share. One that makes no sense, really.

    TOTAL DOSE 6mg hydromorphone
    ADMIN 4mg rectal 2mg intranasal
    STATUS baseline
    STARTING DOSE 4mg rectal
    PREP obvious cleaning! also, lube + turkey baster (LOL)
    SOLUTION warm water

    9:30 dose 4mg in water rectal.
    9:31 pains from shooting air by accident
    9:35 something perhaps
    9:37 above
    9:38 light buzz maybe; being on the floor sideways and naked does not help
    9:39 first sure feeling of a buzz
    9:42 noticing buzz increasing very very slowly
    9:50 light buzz like 10-15 hydrocodone. cns sedation noticable really now. little positive effects.
    9:52 itchy
    9:57 picking up. noticing a better mood and tendency to stare off and lose focus. feels like 1-2mg intranasal
    9:59 getting better, feeling that "face" feeling, eyes feel warm/heavy.
    10:04 still picking up
    10:13 mental effects are just not there. heavily sedated, breathing slow, slightly dreamy, but little euphoria and moderate content feelings. expected way more than this.
    10:16 same as above. not getting much more. just checked mirror: NO PUPIL constriction! srsly, wtf? used opioids tons of times before and ALWAYS got pupil constriction
    10:17 three more minutes allowed, and then a 2mg top off intranasally planned.
    10:22 pupil constriction seen now, but still minor. might be TMI, but what came out afterwards was a thick, gooey yellowish gel that matched the color of the original pills when dissolved
    10:23 wondering if leaving it in there for longer will help
    10:25 attempt to sqeeuze out remains of liquid: impossible. bowels are not moving right now. obviously much stronger action on the gastro vs. any other forums of use, except perhaps IV/IM. pupils have become small dots (although not pinned or super small)
    10:27 swim puts on clothes and moves to get the 2mg ready to snort
    10:43 kill 2mg intranasal, 1mg per nostril for a top off
    10:55 almost nothing. did not even notice the additional. what in the fuck? why is this stuff not working? swim has not had opioids in no less than 2 weeks!
    After this, Swim went downstairs, smoked two bowls, and fell asleep on the couch. He managed to get mild nodding, not nearly as good as it used to be. He nodded until about 4am, when he then went to sleep and nodding was happening less. This was the type of nodding you get when you close your eyes and relax, not the "open eye" kind that all seek.



    Now, this report is odd for the following reasons:

    1) Swim has not had opioids in weeks. Usually, about 4mg intranasal would knock him out good. 4mg rectal did NOTHING, and adding the other 2mg did nothing as well. WHY?
    2) THERE WAS NO EUPHORIA! Swim is used to having EUPHORIA every time. Yes, Swim had some good mood stuff going on, but no euhphoria. Why?!?!
    3) Swim found out a while ago tramadol has no effect on him. It used to be his favorite, but stopped working. Now hydromorphone is producing few effects as well?

    Swim is going to figure out what the fuck is up with this mental tolerance bullshit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  10. pixplzthx

    pixplzthx Newbie

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    It should be noted once that the method used to check for bioavailability in the one paper that cites rectal bioavailability that they used the saliva test to measure the amount of drug in the system.

    Why not do blood work? Why has there only been one test?

    The kid around the corner has found during reading (forums, etc) that all of the anecdotal evidence, as well as TKATC's own personal findings, that rectal administration is far greater than both nasal and oral routes.

    Especially in duration and analgesia.
     
  11. fiveleggedrat

    fiveleggedrat Palladium Member

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    Swim def. Noticed much greater analgesia and pretty much solidly frozen bowels (abnormal for him, never gets this) with rectal admin of hydromorphone. At the same time, greatly fewer mental effects, and complete absence of euphoria. It's like the gut opioid receptors ate it all before the brain's opioid receptors could get hit with any.

    Swim believes as well, even while having little rectal experience, that rectal should technically be superior to nasal in 9/10 cases. The old bioavailability charts are wayyyy off, in the oral area as well. Case in point: Hydromorphone.
     
  12. fiveleggedrat

    fiveleggedrat Palladium Member

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    Swim would have to say from recent experience, rectal is WAY better than insuflation. For sure.

    10mg snorted was mild as pie.
    8mg rectal had Swim nodding and dreamy in 20 minutes. Stayed with him for about 8 hours too. Good stuff!

    Rectal > Intranasal
     
  13. eventhorizon

    eventhorizon Newbie

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    thats because the morphine doesn't avoid the first past liver metabolism when taken rectally which is what happens when u take it orally and where most of the morphine is lost.. but i havn't tried it and rectal administration can be so effective with so many drugs, so i don't really know. what about smoking? they are very small pills aren't they? easy for shooting so maybe they are smokable at least with a simple extraction of a water soluble salt, allow to evaporate etc.. thats what i did with some heroin someone cooked up into a syringe that i didn't want to shoot.. let it evaporate and smoked and snorted the crystals
     
  14. Pain Hurts

    Pain Hurts Mercury Member

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    my pet piranha wood love to know how these %;s are documented and strongly believes that the bio-avail of hydro morph contin (has the 30mg) is wrong as stated by EVERYONE here on this forum. This is not a personal attack and a hugge number of studies average 20% - up to . .. ??? WTF??? ~~~ to 70% . :confused:

    From personal use, my piranha drinks lots of water and takes 30mg with a full glass of water after 2+ hours upon eating and can say, in full absolute confidence the pain relief and elimination of any WD feelings / symptoms have lasted up to 14 FULL HOURS. Incredible. Yes.

    From personal swimming piranhas in Toronto, IV use is , a sis snorting, a waste. 30mg will not get most fishes 12-14 hours of relief.

    Just some bubbles ...:cool:

     
  15. Chemically Dependant

    Chemically Dependant Newbie

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    My neighbors dog seems to think the IV route during a routine rabies/bordatella vaccination is the best, second choice would be orally for a "treat" after going outside for a walk. Being a canine his nose is pretty good, but says he just prefers to use them those two ways. Rectally is only for thermometors, he dosnt want a "doggy bag" when he's older because he wasted away his lower intestines in his puppy years. So he chooses to not "plug" anything, it's all bad to do, but.... That's the exit, orally or even third choice sniffing it up while on the trail of a rabbit is better than having to lift his tail and squat.
     
  16. sarcastabitch

    sarcastabitch Silver Member

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    My cat and her life partner just took 12mg and 6mg, respectively, via plugging a about 15 minutes ago. We'll see how it goes. They don't have any oral use to compare it to, and my cat knows it won't be as awesome as the 4mg she booted the other night, but is hoping it will be a good dose, considering she is out of needles (and has no way to obtain any new ones legally at the moment), and her partner does not dabble in the needle.

    My cat is starting to feel the warmness spreading already, which is a good sign. Next time she will try snorting it, as she has about 10 more 8mg pills, and will report back. If rectally doesn't do the trick, she will insufflate 4mgs tonight on top of the rectal dose.

    I don't understand the reasoning behind the lack of bioavailability cited in that one study- and why is the range so large? o.0

    sarcastabitch added 1343 Minutes and 33 Seconds later...

    Well, my cat had a great experience last night- her life partner, not as much. He said he felt it lacked the "fuzzy" feeling obtained from oxycodone and the like. He ended up snorting another 2mg and was high, but reported that it just "wasn't the same". My cat did not end up snorting any, but when she does, she will report back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  17. spiritsage

    spiritsage Newbie

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    This is an old string but I will post anyway. Noting the large +/- numbers on bioavailability I believe relates to technique. If you plug, use warm, not hot, water and lay on your left side for 30 min. If you snort, if you follow this method- it is better. Prep like for a plug; lay on your back on the bed with your head over the edge, so that your nasal passages are BELOW your throat...let it drip slow from the oral syringe...then no more than a light sniff- if you are careful you won't waste anything down your throat. Trust me, I'm attempting to manage a lot of pain, and trying to avoid the needle- this method works...
     
  18. Supermann

    Supermann Newbie

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    After years of receiving hydromorph contin and ir tabs I've g

    Supermann added 6 Minutes and 5 Seconds later...

    Ot cookin these down pat and very efficient They always go into a 1ml rig and always work with 100 % efficiency when injected. Or so says my clone anyways. My clones girlfriend doesn't shoot up but instead uses the same thing as me but with the point cut off rectally and it work perfectly with very nearly the same effectivity.

    Just cook it like an injection. No huge amounts of water necessary. A clean colon makes a big difference, so poop first if you have to
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  19. La1975

    La1975 Silver Member

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    Through many hospital (er, vet) stays my cat found that hydromorphone in her IV is lovely but the pills do nothing for her. May as well give her cat treats.
    I am NOT suggesting you inject it, it has to be flushed and have saline running too.
     
  20. PHD in PRT

    PHD in PRT Silver Member

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    Man this place posts inaccurate information! You have those bioavailability's reversed. Oral is ALWAYS the least bioavailable.

    Why is someone talking about Morphine when the OP is about Hydromorphone??? The bioavailability is much different depending on the drug so comparing Hydromorphone to Morphine is COMPLETELY inaccurate and useless!!

    This stuff is all over the net from MUCH more reliable sources like Wikipedia.