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bioavailability of morphine for oral vs. insufflated

Discussion in 'Morphine' started by pokeymcsmot421, Jun 26, 2006.

  1. pokeymcsmot421

    pokeymcsmot421

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    It has come to swims attention as of late that there is much debate about whether to crush and swallow ones morphine, or to crush and insufflate it.

    Despite everybody seeming to "know for sure" which method provides the best efficiency, oppinions continue to vary and the only thing that seems to be agreed on is that mscontin is no good to insufflate because it gels up in your nose.

    swim would like to ask the experts (i know you guys are on here) for a once and for all answer to this question.

    I mean its not an oppinion kind of thing, one way has to have a better bioavailability correct? I know water solubility comes in to play here.

    http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/301/1/391

    by the looks of this article vs. the info on wikopedia it seems like oral has 30 percent bioavailability vs. ten percent insufflated, unless insufflated in a proper formula????

    enlighten me. (yes i realize this thread is also pretty much directly below, but the question shows up 6 or seven times on every page and it seems it should be answered once and for good)
     
  2. Fantasian

    Fantasian

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    In SWIF's experience Crushing followed by oral ingestion is the more effective than infufflation.
    SWIFantasian has always found the high much more pleasurable and longer lasting.
    However it should be noted that SWIF hates insufflation in general as it has never worked very effectivly for him.

    From a scientific point of view Oral has a much better bioavailablity as you have already posted above however it's more like 35% to 10%.

    Both have quite bad bioavilability in comparison to rectal administration and injection.

    Hope i helped feel free to ask any more questions :)
     
  3. pokeymcsmot421

    pokeymcsmot421

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    thanks a ton, it definitely helped....if you dont mind i'll take advantage of that offer to ask a couple more questions.

    since it is clear that it does in fact have a higher bioavailability orally,
    why is it people consistantly report to get stronger effects from insufflation? seems to me like it would be one third as strong?

    is this just placebo effect?
    Or does the little bit that actually gets absorbed get absorbed faster therefor producing more intense effects?

    that doesnt make sense to me either since crushing and swallowing should make it hit you all at once, hence the point of crushing.

    idk any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated, and thank you once again for the help.

    haha on a side note, if anyone read the article what do they think of this chitosan spray substance in order to increase bioavailability five or six fold? prolly b.s? un-obtainable substance? or medical breakthrough that will save all of our hypothetical friends money someday?
     
  4. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes

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    insufflation of morphine seems to have a better bioavailability than oral ingestion (although neither are that great), and absorption time would be faster in any case, which could lead to reports of stronger effects.

    in swim's experience the availability is only better when insufflated when using ms contin, instead of instant release morphine with a ton of binders...if theres a good amount of excess filler it'd be better to administer orally.

    swim would like to look into the chitosan substance mentioned or hear more about it...
     
  5. Fantasian

    Fantasian

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    Insufflation produced faster effects therefore is often misinterpretted as being more intense as the effects are gained much faster. Orally the morphine tends to slowly take effect. Crushing and swallowing doesnt create in instant full hit just increases the surface area therefore increasing the speed of onset.

    The veins in the nose can still deliver the morphine much quicker than the gut as it's direct to the blood stream. Regardless of crushing...

    Sorry if that doesnt make much sense im pretty tired atm, if your unsure on any of it just ask again :)
     
  6. muidumees

    muidumees

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    one article swim found on google states that rectal and oral admin. has the exact same bioavailability. can all morhpine pils be administrated rectaly or does it have to be in special form?
     
  7. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes

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    probably would be best to dissolve it in water or something (if its even very water soluble) and do an enema. theres lots of threads on drug enemas here, just do a search! although swim did once know someone who stuck a whole pill of 40 mg oxy in their arse, and ended up vomiting profusely. so its not a failsafe route!
     
  8. prescription

    prescription

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    whoa i thought oral was the worst method of administration with morphine (because it gets metabolized by the liver in the first pass) and rectal is the best. Is this true or have i completely misunderstood the science behind this?
     
  9. pokeymcsmot421

    pokeymcsmot421

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    swim is under the understanding that

    oral has around a 30% bioavailability.

    rectal has around 60% bioavailability.

    insufflation has around 10% bioavailability, however when you snort something alot of what doesnt absorb you end up swallowing anyways, so maybe you could look at it as 30% plus 10%???? or maybe thats bullshit, Im no doctor, thats just some second hand common sense. ..

    Oh yea, IV would be 100 percent since thats the yardstick they compare other methods of ingestion against.
     
  10. Subuser

    Subuser Silver Member

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    So if SWIM had crushed a 30MG MS-Contin and insuffalated it, would that be like the IV effects of 3 MG since it is absorbed through the bloodstream? (10% of the 30 mg=3 mg)
     
  11. drumlord420

    drumlord420

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    No...3 mg of morphine IV would hardly be noticeable (even in opioid naive persons)...Insufflating 30 mgs will provide a noticeable high, although it won't be instantaneous like IV administration...Insufflation, anal suppository administration and IV administration provide the most bio-availability of morphine, with IV administration providing almost 100% bio-availability.
    Hope this helps...
     
  12. WOODCHUCK

    WOODCHUCK Newbie

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    okay im confused ..........im confused just relooked at morphine in wiki 2.1 ways of admin. occording to this supposed drug bible it states that rectal and insufflated both produce about 60 per bio..............so after much work to scratch off the nasty coating crushed finely my neighborly woof buddy huffed and puffed and snorted all the 30 mg in one fell swoop....he usually eats two of them normally and is approx 280lbs..big fckn woof anyhow in about t plus 20 min it took all the wind out of his sails while injesting them normally makes him rarely smile.....i believe that everyone is different and effects vary now this bbwoof is not willing as yet to try the anal method........but if i can get some help holding him down ill let yas no what happens after i shove a 30 up his ass
     
  13. drumlord420

    drumlord420

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    60% rectal and insufflation sounds about right...30mgs insufflated is a lot stronger than oral...Swim doesn't fuck with oral anything, except percocet...Glad he liked it! Lol at the up the ass comment!
     
  14. 3202hill

    3202hill Newbie

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    MS Contin made in the USA is very difficult to break down for injection or snorting unless you are a chemist. I am not. MS Contin swallowed is said to have a bioavailabiltiy of 25- I believe 60%. I have Hep C so I don't know how that factors into the matter.
     
  15. Moving Pictures

    Moving Pictures Titanium Member

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    Man, I've searched this before and can't find any solid information on the b/a of nasal administration since, I mean, it's not a way morphine is medically given. But from extensive use of the generic MsContins (the orange one with a boxed "m" and 60 on the back), oral works way better than snorting. When I first started doing them, I always snorted them. I'd get high, but it wouldn't last that long, it just hit quick. The guy who I was getting them from told me I should be chewing them up and swallowing them. I tried it, and while it took longer to kick in, it got my higher and lasted way longer than snorting them. I've read that the oral bioavailabilty is between 30-50%. That's really not bad. That's the equivalent of 20-30 mg iv from 60 mg oral.

    I have no tried rectal but I have shot the Kadians before, that works very well. A 30 mg shot got me high like eating 60-90 mg. But compared to snorting, eating them works waaayyy better.

    And I don't know about y'all saying morphine can't be crushed cus I had some m 30s purple ones back in August and they crushed just fine. Yeah they gel if you try to put them in water but from what I understand, using saline will beat the time release and you can shoot them. Have no tried it though. But if generic MsContins can't be crushed, this is brand new and I have not seen nor heard anyone (irl) talk about it. What about the Kadians? Those are just time release balls in a capsule. Those are able to inject if you crush up the beads. I've shot them a couple dozen times.

    But you have to remember, when shooting morphine, that it's only soluble to about 60 mg/ml in neutral pH water. So if you're trying to shoot the 100s or 200s, you're going to need more than a 1mL rig. You'll need a 4 or 5 cc rig. If you just use 1 mL rig, you will have a ton of undissolved morphine. That must be kept in mind.
     
  16. hippychic823

    hippychic823 Newbie

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    I was wondering the same thing...and wanted to put my two cents in. Someone I know has tried both and found snorting to be stronger, in her experience. She is a fairly opiate naive person though, so her low tolerance could have something to do with it. Anyways, she came upon five 30 mg purple MSContin pills. She ate two and ended up catching a decent buzz along with profuse itching and throwing up. About a week later she crushed up one of the pills and she and a friend snorted it, which would equal out to them each doing 15 mg a piece. Same thing, she was way buzzed, feeling good but still profusely itchy and she threw up again.
    So, based on that experience I would think that snorting them is more effective, as my friend got pretty much the exact same results from snorting 15 mg that she got from eating 60 mg. But, again, she has no real experience with morphine at all, and has very limited experience with opiates in general so that may also have something to do with it, as the friend who she shared the morphine pill she snorted also ate the remaining 30 mg pill and was fine and said he wasnt even really buzzing but he takes opiates daily and in large quantites.
     
  17. midniterider

    midniterider Newbie

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    So, let me pose this question. We seem to be getting varied responses which is normal. So would the consensus be that if you want to try snorting or insufflating which can you recommend? Snorting or insufflating? The word "insufflate" is an ugly word, I like railing better. Although railing doesn't really fit either. And I read something about MS Contin turning to gel in your nose, any views on that? And if SWIM wanted to take MS Contin orally do you need to scrape the outside coating off before crushing? And what is the coating really? I know the "ER" function has to be more than just the outer coating.
     
  18. MadOne

    MadOne Mercury Member

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    Im not sure if it gels up in your nose or not when snorting but if you try to inject uk branded mst continus it is very very difficult unless you are using the 100 or 200mg mg tablets they are 66% pure morphine as 100mg tabs weigh 150mg and the 200mg weigh 300mg. Even they tend not to dissolve properly unless you heat them which i been told is not an ideal thing to do unless you dont mind shooting up molten wax. But i can confirm the coating has no time release content in it at all. It is just a coloured coating so you know what strength they are thats all it is and possibly to try and deter injecting. The morphine is binded up in the wax thats in the tablets. This is the time release mechanism. Though im not sure if that applies to the 24 hour time release brands,is it called kadian kappanol or avinza in usa im not sure but There called mxl in uk and are capsule only i think with little solid balls in them. Be safe

    MadOne added 13 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

    No 60% is way to high the oral bio of morphine is around the 20-35% mark for most people at most. Although i have heard claims that when your reliant on them the bio goes up to around 40-45% how true this is could be anyones guess but i dont belive its that high. This is the whole reason oxycodone is ment to be stronger than morphine orally as its bio is about 60% around double that of morphine According to wiki.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  19. 3202hill

    3202hill Newbie

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    My MD told me there is only about 20% bioavailability with oral MS Contin. As far as my own experience plus having a weak liver due to Hep C, I find if I take the pills whole as instructed, they tend to last longer. I also read that oral benzos and oral morphine are hard on persons with Hep C but that is another thread.