Combinations - BK-MDMA / MDAI combination

Discussion in 'Beta-Ketones' started by push, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. push

    push Silver Member

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    SWIM attempted the M1 / MDAI combo last night and would have to say it was disappointing. SWIM dropped 100mg of M1, orally mixed with water, followed by 50mg of MDAI, orally in water, 30 or so minutes later, followed by a second 50mg, orally in water a further 15 mins after this. SWIM really didn't take a good idea of time though so the times SWIM dropped the MDAI may have been longer following the M1 than stated. SWIM's final dose was 50mg of M1 after 1 hour 30 mins, also orally in water.
    There really was little effect, the M1 took effect after about 20-40 mins, the usual effects for a dose that size, noticeable music appreciation, everything looking more vibrant and a little body load. The MDAI really didn't seem to add anything to the experience. There was no euphoria or empathy, generally the music appreciation and higher visual sense were the main effects, also the undeniable feeling to want to lie down, this was also the effect the last time I took methylone; that was 50mg, followed 30 mins later by a 50mg redose and a final 50 redose 30 mins after that. Both times the strong feeling of SWIM having to go lie down has been apparent, and lying there is very calming listening to music when I do succumb to that feeling. This is strange, usually methylone makes me full of energy, intense euphoria and empathy and music appreciation. This could be down to the dosages though.
    Back to the MDAI - M1 combo, the main effects, although very subtle, and when I did get up from lying down around 2 hours after the first dose SWIM did notice stronger body load, but in the sense of a feather light body, the usual blurred vision was present too. When the main effects wore off there was very little comedown, possibly the MDAI attributed to this, really just the usual not being able to get to sleep; this wasn't possible until around 8am this morning, with the first dose of M1 taken at 9:30 last night!
    I have theories for this lack of effect with this combo however.
    Firstly, the first time I did M1 it was 150mg, SWIM really didn't feel much of anything and from how people told SWIM the experience should be it was disappointing. I remember the main effect being a great calm and everything looked amazing, but little euphoria or empathy. The next time I did 200mg and it was everything I was told it would be. This was in a couple of days following the first time. I felt first alerts inside 5 mins going all the way up in levels in the following hours to full blown euphoria and empathy. It was an incredible experience, the music appreciation was very intense. I am 6.4 in height so it may be possible to assume anything under 200mg or possibly 180mg will have little effect. SWIM can't say for sure, really only going on SWIM's first two experiences and the intense ten fold effect jump between a dose of 150mg to 200mg. SWIM really doesn't know how the MDAI would fit into this but perhaps 200mg or even 150mg of M1 to 100mg or possibly 150mg of MDAI would be the more effective dosing. It is very possible 200mg m1 - 200 MDAI is the preferable dosing for the full mdma like effects other you's are experiencing on this combo. Everyone is different and they are both RC's so it is very difficult to say, one you's 100mg - 100mg combo could be anothers 200mg - 200mg for example. I do think the 150mg m1 to 200mg m1 experience difference was down to SWIM's height and build though.
    Another possible reason for lack of effects is the pattern of dosing. It may have been a better idea to dose 100mg m1 with 100mg MDAI at once rather than split apart as I did. It's possible the split dosage of MDAI affected the experience. Again though it could very well be down to SWIM's height and build, this same combination and dosage could be very effective with another you.
    Next time I will try 150 mg m1 - 150 mg MDAI, dropped almost simultaneously, and report back the difference to last nights experience.
    A final reason could be down to the quality of the MDAI. I have been reading about the purer batches coming out now. The MDAI I have is the light brown cocoa like freebase which other you's seem to report is a lot weaker than some of the pure MDAI making it's way out now.
    Have any other you's had the MDMA like success some say to have had experienced with this combo, and if so, what were the dosages that were found most effective?
     
  2. Snouter Fancier

    Snouter Fancier Gold Member

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    A total dose of 150 mg MDAI spread out over 90 minutes is not an especially large dose for most swimmers. MDAI seems to be almost a pure entactogen, with minimal euphoric effects. I am not surprised that its effects seem, in this report, to have been obscured by both the entactogenic and euphoric effects of the methylone.

    If You combined MDAI and methylone with a much larger fraction of the total dose being the MDAI, it might produce an experience with a higher ratio of entactogenesis to euphoria and speediness. Is that what You is looking for?
     
  3. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Ed found this to be a winning combination at the higher doses like you're speculating on. He likely took something like 200-240mg methylone orally followed by 70-80mg(?) of each rectally after an hour or so. Sorry can't remember more specifically.
     
  4. McVonstein

    McVonstein Newbie

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    A quick google search for "mdai" "methylone" and "neurotoxic" yielded this:

    "Serotonin neurotoxicity in rats after combined treatment with a dopaminergic agent followed by a nonneurotoxic 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogue.
    Johnson MP, Huang XM, Nichols DE.
    Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907. There is increasing evidence linking dopamine (DA) to the long-term serotonergic (5-HT) neurotoxic effects of certain substituted amphetamines such as 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). The present study was undertaken to examine the importance of DA metabolism, uptake inhibition and release in the long-term effects of these drugs by combining various dopaminergic agents with an analogue of MDMA that had low neurotoxic liability, namely 5,6-methylenedioxy-2-aminoindan (MDAI). Monoamine and metabolite levels and the number of 5-HT uptake sites (using [3H]paroxetine binding) were determined 3 hours or 1 week after treatments. Combining the monoamine oxidase inhibitors, clorgyline (MAOA selective) or deprenyl (MAOB selective) with MDAI did not result in any long-term reductions of serotonergic markers. Similarly, combining the DA uptake inhibitor GBR-12909 with MDAI did not result in any long-term changes in monoamine levels at 1 week. In contrast, a single pretreatment of posttreatment with the nonvesicular DA releaser S-amphetamine and MDAI resulted in small but significant long-term changes in monoamine levels. More importantly, if a subacute dosing regimen (every 12 hours for 4 days) was utilized, the combination of S-amphetamine with MDAI resulted in a marked long-term decrease in the levels of cortical, hippocampal and striatal 5-HT, 5-HIAA and the number of 5-HT uptake sites. The results are discussed in terms of the significance of DA and especially nonvesicular DA release in the long-term effects of MDMA-like drugs."


    The poster then went on to add this:


    "If you want to combine MDAI with anything, combine it with dopamine reuptake inhibitors (ie methylphenidate/MDPV) - not dopamine releasers (methylone/butylone/mephedrone/amphetamines/etc)."


    I probably won't be administering this combination to any of my animals any time soon.
     
  5. lineartransform

    lineartransform Titanium Member

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  6. push

    push Silver Member

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    It seems to SWIM the minimum dosage other you's seem to recommend is what would be considered a large dose of each by itself. So 200mg Methylone - 200mg MDAI would, at least with SWIM's build appear to be the most effective for the MDMA like experience I am interested in with this combo.

    What would You recommend, say 180mg Methylone - 200mg MDAI? I am interested in the full blown euphoria and empathetic qualities other you's have said to have experienced with this combo, with a minimum of the speedy.

    However, reading that report on the combination of MDAI with dopamine releasers such as methylone is, it makes me more wary of this combination. Having had a very bad experience with a 100mg methylone - 100mg mephedrone combo in the past does not wish to repeat this and this study appears to place a MDAI - Methylone combo in the same risk category, even if anything slightly less so than combining mephedrone and methylone but still appears to be a potentially bad combination.
    SWIM's next dosage with his combo was going to be 150mg MDAI - 150mg Methylone, working his SWIM's way up to 200mg MDAI - 200mg Methylone, however, as much as I want to experience the MDMA like effects other you's have experienced on this combo it may be best to stick to one large dose of methylone one one large dose of MDAI by themselves. What do other you's think of this study, how does it effect you's dosing with this combination? I have not bioassayed the MDAI - methylphenidate/MDPV combination but based on other you's experiences with MDAI - MDPV it does appear to be a weaker and underwhelming combination for a MDMA like experience.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2010
  7. amaz

    amaz Silver Member

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    My cat informed me earlier this evening that it had ordered a sample of MDAI after reading about it in the 'cat news'. I was thinking that mixed with M1/bk-mdma and or MBDB or both it might start to resemble the good 'ol proper mdma.

    The report above from mcvonstein stating that MDAI would be better mixed with MDPV was sort of disappointing 'cause small quantities of MDPV make my cat very euphoric and horny anyway, although the urge to dance isn't quite the same. so to agree with push as well, I think MDPV wouldn't be the right partner as when too much is taken it becomes nasty and unpleasant, altho' small doses (without re-dosing) are really quite nice.

    Now that my cat has grown to full height of over 6ft, I was thinking that a mix of 120mg MBDB + 180mg M1 + 200mg of MDAI would do the trick, but then re-reading what everyone writes this is starting to sound rather stupid.

    Oh well the cat will have to wait and see what others have found out first.
     
  8. zappm

    zappm Newbie

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    I tried the combo yesterday night at a party and LOVED it! He said he bombed 220mg bk-MDMA / 200mg MDAI first and after about 1 1/2 hours 100mg bk-MDMA / 100mg MDAI.
    He said it was one of the best nights in his life :)

    zappm added 2 Minutes and 18 Seconds later...

    a yes...and he forgot to add, that he felt like the effects lasted WAY longer than they would with pure bk-MDMA. The comedown was absolutely cool... feels really chilly atm ^^
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2010
  9. push

    push Silver Member

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    Sounds like You had an awesome time with this combo! Did You bomb a dose of each at the same time and did You find when the redose kicked in it added to or maintained the effects of the original roll from the first dose?
    How was the comeup; usual methylone like or more mdma full in the face like? Also when You say's about the duration of effects, how much longer does You mean compared to the usual average 1:30-2 hours of methylone?
    I am really interested to try this at a proper dosage!
     
  10. zappm

    zappm Newbie

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    No he said he didn't bomb it at the same time...the second smaller dose was about 1 1/2 hours later. He redosed when he felt already ver good. He told me that the second dose added much to the feeling and he had this nice shaky-colorful optics he knows from mdma after it kicked in. The overall feeling was VERY mdma-like, more than Methylone alone. He believes, the MDAI added the empathogenic part to the experience and completet it :vibes:. MDAI alone isn't very interesting to him because he barely can feel positive effects. The comeup was methylone like....but its quite in the face in his point of view ^^
    I was especially overwhelmed from the duration of the effects. They were very intense for about 6 hours and started to wear off more slowly than the effects of bk-mdma alone. This is why he also believes the come-down of the combo felt more gentle.
     
  11. push

    push Silver Member

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    How far apart did You bomb each of the MDAI and Methylone, was it say within minutes of each other, so M1 bombed, then MDAI bombed 5 mins later? Was this the same You redosed each?
    I am the same, very little effect from MDAI by itself although SWIM's first experience of this combo was disappointing, possibly and probably down to the low dosing of each, the comedown as You says was very mild as opposed to a sole methylone comedown.
    6 hours of intense effects, wow! Sounds like you, at least for youself nailed an effective combo of these two substances!
     
  12. zappm

    zappm Newbie

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    The first bomb was 220mg bk-MDMA and 200mg MDAI MIXED together. So he said he mixed the two substances and bombed them at once. The same with the redose. The duration was really overwhelming. A friend of SWIM who was at the party told him about even longer effects of about 7 to 8 hours. It's a really fine combo IMO!
     
  13. amaz

    amaz Silver Member

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    my swim can confirm that the mix suggested by zappm's I was absolutely brilliant. 200mg M1/Methylone and 200mg MDAI; diluted in glass of water and drunk. considering what the resultant effects were and the experiences of others (above) who took smaller quantities, I wouldn't suggest taking less than amounts suggested by my swim.

    after 20 mins started to feel light-headed and then those fabulous soaring rushing feeling that we used to get with proper mdma years back. I weigh 90kg and swim's partner 65kg. mrs I took 10 percent less.

    peak lasted from 35-40 mins after ingestion to roughly 2.5 hrs later. was fantastic without being overbearing. music was great. dancing was great. swim then topped up with 150mg M1 mixed with 50mg MDAI.

    As Zappm said, the whole experience lasted about 7 hours and swim told me that this was the closest experience had to real mdma for years and years! such a pity that they've banned M1 ... aaargh!! At least I had a small stash leftover, but that won't last too long :(

    forgot to mention ... I said the comedown was lovely and smooth, and the next day there was no depressing feeling just a nice general chilled-ness .. so :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2010
  14. push

    push Silver Member

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    With the above two you's reports it seems there is some real potential in this combination, however at a high dose of each to how much I took.
    I have a question, in the case of the above you's and their incredible experiences on this combo with the MDAI, was it the dark brown colored fine powder freebase or the more recent reported purer MDAI (I have yet to encounter this himself, only going on other you's reports)?
    Also, do either you's know the assay for purity of the MDAI they had?
     
  15. amaz

    amaz Silver Member

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    swim informed me that the mdai was a mid brown dusty talcum powder type product sourced from a reputable reliable supplier (meaning that everything previous had been ok, which is no guarantee for the future). 99% purity claimed, and no reason to dispute this based upon previous experience.

    I said he is looking forward to the weekend and the next time he can try the mix out ;)
     
  16. amaz

    amaz Silver Member

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    I has read something elsewhere on the web re mixing MDAI with cathiones which say that mixing the two substances is not a good idea. Would any chemist/medical expert be able to pass any additional comments or shed any more insight?

    "MDAI in conjunction with dopamine releasing agents such as methylone and butylone causes the death of serotonin neurons via the reuptake of dopamine oxidation products. (ie the mechanism of neuron death with high levels of MDMA)

    This can lead to long term reduction in monoamine levels - in short, not good.

    Vitamin C is the most effective antioxidant that drastically reduces the influence of these dopamine oxidation products.

    Please. Short term highs are not worth long term lows.

    edit: REFERENCE

    Serotonin neurotoxicity in rats after combined treatment with a dopaminergic agent followed by a nonneurotoxic 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogue.

    Johnson MP, Huang XM, Nichols DE.

    Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN 47907. There is increasing evidence linking dopamine (DA) to the long-term serotonergic (5-HT) neurotoxic effects of certain substituted amphetamines such as 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). The present study was undertaken to examine the importance of DA metabolism, uptake inhibition and release in the long-term effects of these drugs by combining various dopaminergic agents with an analogue of MDMA that had low neurotoxic liability, namely 5,6-methylenedioxy-2-aminoindan (MDAI). Monoamine and metabolite levels and the number of 5-HT uptake sites (using [3H]paroxetine binding) were determined 3 hours or 1 week after treatments. Combining the monoamine oxidase inhibitors, clorgyline (MAOA selective) or deprenyl (MAOB selective) with MDAI did not result in any long-term reductions of serotonergic markers. Similarly, combining the DA uptake inhibitor GBR-12909 with MDAI did not result in any long-term changes in monoamine levels at 1 week. In contrast, a single pretreatment of posttreatment with the nonvesicular DA releaser S-amphetamine and MDAI resulted in small but significant long-term changes in monoamine levels. More importantly, if a subacute dosing regimen (every 12 hours for 4 days) was utilized, the combination of S-amphetamine with MDAI resulted in a marked long-term decrease in the levels of cortical, hippocampal and striatal 5-HT, 5-HIAA and the number of 5-HT uptake sites. The results are discussed in terms of the significance of DA and especially nonvesicular DA release in the long-term effects of MDMA-like drugs.

    If you want to combine MDAI with anything, combine it with dopamine reuptake inhibitors (ie methylphenidate/MDPV) - not dopamine releasers (methylone/butylone/mephedrone/amphetamines/etc)"
     
  17. lineartransform

    lineartransform Titanium Member

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    Your quote describes neurotoxicity of serotonin releasing agents in conjunction with dopamine releasing agents. This is the same mechanism of neurotoxicity as MDMA.

    In short, it likely has comparable risk to MDMA in terms of neurotoxicity, and is not some new strange monster.
     
  18. Tamis

    Tamis Titanium Member

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    This is an extremely interesting topic with important harm reduction advice !
    Any addition to this thread would be welcomed :)
     
  19. yaniczka

    yaniczka Silver Member

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    could some You who has experience with mixing mdai with dopamin releasers compare the experience with mixing mdai with DARI? Is it big difference in effects (I would f course prefer to do less harmful way but wonders whether its worth it)?
    also, slighty off topic - how long should one wait between taking dopamin releaser and mdai to not hear the brain? 2 hours? 5 hours? more? cheers.
     
  20. amaz

    amaz Silver Member

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    I am struggling to understand yaniczka's question(s). what is 'dari' and what do you mean by "to not hear the brain"?

    I would also like to point interested parties to an interesting youtube video done by a professor of organic chemistry concerning mdai. he discusses neurotoxity as well as cardiotoxity. search for 'professordaveatyork' on youtube.

    I would also like to comment that more recent 'evenings' with the 200+200 mix of methylone and mdai haven't been as spectacular as the first few events. can anyone offer any ideas of why this might be? 'evenings' are usually interspersed by at least 2 weeks in between.

    I usually uses 5-htp afterwards to avoid seratonin crash