Cooking With Amanitas: How To Do It Right

Discussion in 'Amanita' started by Bajeda, Dec 7, 2006.

  1. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I am becoming increasingly agitated going through all the drug-related sites he knows, as it seems that no one has a clue how to consume Amanitas Muscaria properly.

    There are reports of people puking, not feeling anything (quite common), feeling way too much, the taste being horrible (swim put some in a PBJ once, bad idea!), etc. etc.

    I have seen all sorts of information about Amanitas, ranging from "ITS POISON!!" to "ITS INACTIVE!!" to "DON'T TAKE MORE THAN A TABLESPOON OR SO!!", plus almost every single preparation or recipe guide he has seen has been for fresh mushrooms that are either dried or cooked directly.



    Now I have taken amanitas about 4 times before, and only on two occaisions did he get actual psychedelic effects. Ironically, the two times he did get effects he ate them in the most disgusting ways. First time he made a tea with friends that a girl messed up by putting tons of orange peels and honey and sugar in because she couldnt stand the smell, which of course only made it 10x worse! The other time he did it he threw close to 9 grams of really terrible quality Amanitas (they had random roots and dirt on them that I could barely get out, plus they were disintegrating) into a bowl of already prepared ramen noodles and ate as fast as possible until he got to the end when the taste was horrible so he couldn't drink the remaining soup. So the consumption in these cases was terrible, but the experiences were actually fairly enjoyable, though only the ramen one got any truly psychedelic effects (such as floating around inside the GPS system of swim's friend's car!).


    I have a larger quantity of Amanitas now. He already depleted some by trying them in PBJs like he usually does with psilocybin mushrooms. They were quite disgusting, as the Amanitas tasted like what could only be described as "gerbil" and had the consistency of sand. Swim eat probably around 6-7 grams and got barely threshold effects. No real enjoyment there, just a slightly "different" feeling.


    So now swim still has a decent amount of Amanitas left, but he doesn't want to waste anymore or go through unnecessary unpleasantries in order to get a good (or any!) experience from these mushrooms. He has read posts, reports, and other anecdotal evidence suggesting that Amanitas Muscaria taste quite good when cooked, and that the further conversion of ibotenic acid to muscimol would reduce unpleasant side-effects and increase potency. I have also read a ton of other utter bullshit on the topic of Amanitas so he is just completely confused at the moment. Its surprising how little interest the members of drugs-forum seem to have in the Fly Agaric mushroom, potential unhealthy side effects aside (I mean come on, there are a good amount of IV drug users, heavy drug users, polysubstance users who experiment with dangerous combinations, why would everyone be scared off by unverified and unknown reports?). In any case, I am set on consuming Amanitas in the near future, and he wants the entire experience to be somewhat enjoyable, including consumption.


    I am compiling below all the potentially useful anecdotal evidence he can find on this topic. There are many conflicting facts stated in much of the anecdotal material he has seen, and many of the reports seem quite unprofessional in nature and give swim the impression the person doesn't quite have an idea what they are talking about. Swim will try to filter out all the questionable information he finds.

    If any members on drugs-forum have experience with Amanitas please post here to help swim out. Recipes would be helpful, as well as answers to the questions I am going to list out at the bottom of the post.







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    ^^^^^^

    This sounds somewhat similar to the experience of My friends and I, though they consumed commercially dried mushrooms and only got slight nausea. Still effects were lacking, a "buzz" is the right word to describe it. Could have been dose related.




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    I find this report to be quite interesting. The main problem is that instead of listing the amount of grams consumed, they had to list it by cup. Well to clarify this some I did some searching online to try and find a way to roughly convert 1/2 cup of chopped mushrooms in a weight in grams.


    Mushrooms, 4 cups chopped = 3 ounces dried
    * Hmm, this would mean 4 cups chopped mushrooms is 85.5 grams worth of dried mushrooms. I don't know if chopped means fresh or dried though. That would come out to 10.69 grams or so per half cup, which isn't too bad a dose. If this is an accurate representation of how much was taken by the person who wrote the report above, maybe the Amanitas consumed were of a higher potency. Or maybe by chopped mushrooms the site meant fresh choped mushrooms, which would be extremely irritating.



    8 tablespoons
    1/2 cup
    4 ounces
    113.4 grams
    * This would mean that 1/2 cup is 113.4 grams? I somehow think this is referring to liquids only. Sorry for not being swift with all the measurement systems, but swim's not a very experienced cook, and he has been so many places he doesn't know which system of measurement goes where anymore for alot of things.



    [SIZE=-1]1 Am. Lbs.
    [SIZE=-1]ounce/c
    [SIZE=-1]1 cup
    [SIZE=-1]1/2 cup
    [SIZE=-1]1/3 cup
    [SIZE=-1]1/4 cup
    [SIZE=-1]1 tbs.
    [SIZE=-1]1 tsp.
    [SIZE=-1]1/2 tsp.
    [SIZE=-1]1/4 tsp.
    [SIZE=-1]mushrooms, sliced
    [SIZE=-1]5 cups
    [SIZE=-1]3.2
    [SIZE=-1]90
    [SIZE=-1]45.0
    [SIZE=-1]30.0
    [SIZE=-1]22.5
    [SIZE=-1]5.63
    [SIZE=-1]1.88
    [SIZE=-1]0.94
    [SIZE=-1]0.47
    [SIZE=-1]mushrooms, cooked
    [SIZE=-1]2 cups
    [SIZE=-1]8.0
    [SIZE=-1]226
    [SIZE=-1]113.0
    [SIZE=-1]75.3
    [SIZE=-1]56.5
    [SIZE=-1]14.13
    [SIZE=-1]4.71
    [SIZE=-1]2.35
    [SIZE=-1]1.18
    * Ok so this would appear to be yet another fresh mushroom conversion or something, because I seriously doubt that weight of dry mushrooms could fit in there. Anyone know a fairly (or at all) accurate ratio to use to find how much less a dried mushroom weighs than a fresh one? I don't know how much water weight they lose....

    ^^^ This seems like it could be potentially useful information, but I don't know how to apply it exactly as I haven't slept in too long. I'll probably have to come back to this.....



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    There was a bunch more information in this report, but none of it was really novel. What I found interesting about this though, was that the writer suggests brining water up to almost simmering and putting already dry mushrooms to steep in it. Would this convert yet more ibotenic acid to muscimol potentially?

    Also, like many other people whose reports I've read, this person doesn't mention taste and simply says to drink it when its cool. Funny, as the other tea reciipes I've read have said for the most part that it tastes like crap. Hmmm...

    Is there anyway to make a tea or other concoction where consuming the mushrooms themselves isn't necessary? Or at least, any ideas on how this drink could be made better? Like adding actual tea bags, or maybe ginger or other spices, or simple honey and sugar.... Anything to make it taste better basically.

    Anyone have experiences with this they would like to share?

    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
    l
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    Maybe the caps aren't necessary if the tea method is used? The writer of the report said that effects were mild. This is hard to interpret, however, as two caps were described as being used in the tea (its not in the quote, I know) which could be a range of weights. I would guess 3-8 grams if I had to, but can't really know for sure.

    Anyone make an Amanita's concoction and get rid of the mushroom itself and still feel effects?




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    This is a more promising report, as the boyfriend - so far as I can tell from the writing - didn't get sick as he didn't eat the mushrooms. Then again, he wasn't writing the report so I don't know if he actually experienced full effects or if the person who wrote the report just assumed such.

    At least this report hints at the fact that Amanita Muscaria can be tasty if prepared correctly, which is what I had been hoping for swim's sake.




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    Comparing these two experiences is interesting....


    The person who weighed more took less amanita's and actually boiled the water. This was the person who get less effects.

    The person who weighed less took over twice as many amanita's and simmered the dry mushrooms in water. Way too intense effects to be pleasant at all it sounds from the description.


    The question is... What made the biggest difference? Weight vs. Amanita Potency vs. Water Temperature?

    Weight was definitely a factor, but its hard to gauge how much of one. Mushroom potency is essentially impossible to evaluate with the information provided.


    The water temperature's effect on the experience is far more interesting to swim. If the person who wrote the first report prepared 25 grams of Amanita instead of 10 grams, but in the same style (i.e. boiling water), I think the effects would be stronger, but would the side effects? Also, if the person who only simmered the water and let the Amanita's steep used 10 grams would he get stronger effects than the man who boiled the mushrooms? Would the side effects have been more severe if 10 grams were simmered instead of boiled?

    I don't know if anyone on these forums can do any more than speculate as to the possible answers to these questions, but if anyone has an idea or knowledge of the impact of heat on Amanita's and their effects (Non-anecdotal evidence would be nice, though it seems hard to find. Observations from an experienced user would be great too!) or any possible use of manipulating water temperature when making Amanita broth/tea it would be appreciated.



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    Anyone attempt to take the red skin off before consumption? Haven't heard of this before, though it sounds interesting.



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    Yet another tea recipe that advocates boiling the mushrooms in the water rather than adding them to simply steep...

    Interesting that the person who wrote this reported increased effects and little nausea. Its hard to tell what this means. The dose was fairly low, and it isn't known whether the mushrooms were the same ones the writer used in previous experiences (including the 7+ gram one). Somewhat promising though.




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    And the final outside quote I'll be using today....



    Ok... This is from James Arthur's website.

    Some interesting facets here. He says that Amanita Muscaria can be "WELL" cooked and combined with other foods to create a tasy hallucinatory meal.

    First off, does anyone have an idea as to the effects of temperature on Muscimol, Ibotenic Acid, and whatever else may come into play? I am still thoroughly confused due to the lack of scientific data on this subject combined with the huge variety in anecdotal evidence.

    Also, if I had already dried mushrooms would he still be able to cook them?




    Well swim lied, he forgot to add one more quote. See below.



    There seems to be a trend of experience reports involving thorough cooking of Amanitas or boiling into tea having lesser effects and lesser side effects. Plus, while many people say the taste is disgusting (swim personally agrees at the present moment) people who cook up their Amanitas tend towards either mild dislike or enjoyment of the taste.



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    Sorry if I went a bit overboard there with all the information, but this is bothering swim that there is such a lack of cohesive evidence as to the effects of Amanita Muscaria, the best method of preparation (besides drying the mushies ahead of time, seems like most people agree on that), how to avoid side-effects, etc.


    If anyone on the forums is able to answer any of the questions asked above, that would be appreciated.



    If anyone on the forums has a decent amount of experience with Amanitas Muscaria and feels they know how to use it correctly your knowledge would be IMMENSELY helpful and appreciated. I am specifically looking for the best method to prepare Amanita Muscaria so that there aren't too many side effects during the experience, and possibly so that he can actually enjoy eating the mushrooms instead of wanting to simply die because of his taste buds. Any other tips or suggestions would be welcome as well. Thank you.



     
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  2. inpsydout

    inpsydout Newbie

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    A shaman happened to know the answer after watching the moon during the whole night long yesterday. He said this video had the answer http://youtube.com/watch?v=ffDPTKn7HiY , but it could not be read by the people of the West. Japanese anyone? :D
     
  3. The Dreamer

    The Dreamer Titanium Member

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    Okay, here's the theory I've come up with:

    It appears that cooking the mushrooms may have something to do with the decarboxylation of ibotenic acid (toxic, causes muscle twitching and hallucinations) into Muscimol (non-toxic and 10x more halucinogenic) or perhaps it helps to convert muscazone(toxic) and muscarine(toxic, causes sweating, salivation and nausea) into something less toxic. But exactly how this all works I don't know exactly.

    Also, I've noticed that sources who talk about cooking usually recomend 180F degrees as an absolute cap. This would melt everything but Muscimol (melts at about 185F) and since the most potent part is just under the skin of the caps this may boil everything but Muscimol out into the water.

    So my cat is going to:

    Dry them completely to decarboxylize as much ibotenic acid as possible then boil them at about 170-180 F and let most of the toxins seep out. This should increase potency and reduce discomfort. But this is based on very limited knowledge. The skin on the cap should be peeled off and discarded also. I'll post again after he's tried this.
     
  4. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Will be interested to hear about the results.

    One question though; why should the skin on the cap be peeled off and discarded? Wondering about the logic behind this, specifically any references would be nice (though understandable if hard to produce).
     
  5. Panthers007

    Panthers007 Iridium Member

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    I have no idea where the 'peel the skin' rumor came from - but none of Bongo's cohorts ever did this - and all are happily alive and well.

    I've seen quite a few assays of A. Muscaria. None of these contained more than a tiny trace of muscarine*
    - although the mushroom was named after this compound. Strange, eh? Yup. Also there is a German extraction mentioned in the Merck Index. It was for extracting bufotenine from these. They seem to be mistaken as no further assays ever found any 5-OH-n,n-DMT in these.

    * - so small as to be physiologically insignificant.
     
  6. The Dreamer

    The Dreamer Titanium Member

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    I really should keep a running tally of my sources but I haven't been. Here's one that Alfa posted in the documents section:https://drugs-forum.com/forum/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=64&id=1744

    It talks about the traditional Mexican practice of removing the skin on pages 133 and 134 so it is a well established practice. It also explains in the same area that most of the Muscimol is just under the skin.

    So (and I stress that this is just my own theoretical suggestion) if you were to heat a pot of water and soak the dried mushrooms for a long period of time the other compounds (or at least the remaining ibotenic acid) would melt and seep out into the water (the Mexican natives discarded the water after boiling so they weren't extracting the Muscimol they were removing something else) while (I'm guessing) the solid Muscimol would remain in the amanita. I think that the removal of the mushroom's skin may be an additional attempt to remove ibotenic acid that hasn't seeped out entirely.

    But this all depends on how porous amanitas are and whether or not muscimol would leak through into the water in its solid state. I think the amanitas would have to be whole and without too many rips in the skin when they enter the pot.

    Panthers007 muscarine poisoning tends to cause perspiration and salivation. The vast majority of experience reports that I've read mention this also. I just assumed there was a connection. How sure are you that muscarine isn't present in any significant quantity?
     
  7. Panthers007

    Panthers007 Iridium Member

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    Quite sure. I'm quite familiar with muscarine and the nature of the poisoning it causes. And modern research - quantitative analysis - shows extremely low levels, if any present at all. It's possible this mushroom was confused with Clitocybe Dealbata* as they do occur in the same habitat. Who knows? But muscarine, and bufotenine, has been found absent. Occasionally just low levels of muscarine. With bufotenine never being found since the German report from the 1920's. Who knows what it was they found and thought to be bufotenine? The report went on to state they crystallized the bufotenine out as a picrate.

    * - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitocybe_dealbata
     
  8. The Dreamer

    The Dreamer Titanium Member

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    Does heat destroy Muscimol/Ibotenic Acid because I have heard of people smoking Muscarias before so I assumed not. However, my cat was experimenting with some for the past few days and found that on the first two occasions he got no effect. Then on the third he did get some effect.

    I told my cat that it may have been due to the fact that he had heated the Amanitas the first two times, first with some just boiled spaghetti and second directly in the microwave. The third time he made a chocolate smoothie and it worked just fine. He did the first two in one day and the third a day or two later. Meaning that the first two didn't help to build up a dose for the third.

    My cat thinks I am crazy because he has seen many posts about smoking Amanitas. But perhaps if heat is applied over a long period it may break them down? Does anybody have an answer to my cat's riddle?

    Oh, the chocolate smoothie method worked wonders for my cat by the way. He's found that only chocolate or hot sauce (Frank's in his case) will cover the taste up properly. He used some chocolate sauce to cover up the taste and a few chunks of a chocolate bar to cover up the texture and he blended the mushies first with some olive oil until they looked like oatmeal to soften them.

    It would have been perfect if my cat was not allergic to milk. But I suggest adding some; it might end up tasting pretty good.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2008
  9. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Were the Amanitas prepared in any way (i.e. heating to convert ibotenic acid) before making the smoothie preparation?
     
  10. Lobsang

    Lobsang Newbie

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    Well possibley the best information to look into preperation of Amanita Muscaria is Hawk "The Soma Shaman". He has a book and DVD on preperation. He is strange but has 30 years of experience with Amanita.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
  11. The Dreamer

    The Dreamer Titanium Member

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    The Amanitas where cooked until paper-like at 170 the first time the second time my cat just left them the way they came since the first attempt failed (they were already pretty dry). But on both occasions they touched something that was steaming (ie 212 degrees F) before consumption.

    And actually the third time I believe that my cat's experience was due to the Cannabis he smoked two hours later (no effect until then). His friend had a similar experience that only precipitated after he smoked. I think there is some sort of synergistic effect between Amanitas/shrooms/LSA/Cacti and Cannabis as the strange highs my cat experiences don't seem similar to either and last about 10 hours.
     
  12. leadcoffin

    leadcoffin Silver Member

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    Some ethnobotanical sites are now offering an A. muscaria resin -- of which my priestess knows not the composition. Perhaps I can persuade her into more research.
     
  13. Panthers007

    Panthers007 Iridium Member

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    I would be very worried about any "extract" of a. muscaria. At least with the dried mushroom off the net, you can examine it. But who knows what some kid on eBay found in his yard and boiled in rubbing-alcohol?

    Be afraid. Be VERY afraid.
     
  14. leadcoffin

    leadcoffin Silver Member

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    the vendor certainly wasn't forthcoming with listing (if any) active ingredients. Of course, it's only an incense and not intended for human consumption.
     
  15. Lobsang

    Lobsang Newbie

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    Well there are suppliers that I would trust. But one needs to be very careful.
     
  16. Panthers007

    Panthers007 Iridium Member

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    I wonder how long it will be before someone figures out that burning incense leads to "human consumption?" If you are lighting something on fire in order to breathe the vapors - you are consuming it. I'll wait...:eek:
     
  17. Lobsang

    Lobsang Newbie

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    It is cat incense:p
     
  18. The Dreamer

    The Dreamer Titanium Member

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    I agree, anything I purchase is solely for the breathing pleasure of my cat. He seems to enjoy it.
     
  19. psyche

    psyche Palladium Member

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    Strange. I've read somewhere, a long time ago, that if one would want to try smoking A. Muscaria, he should peel off the skin because it's the most potent part. Not throw it away.

    Anyway, SWIM's brother had an experience with Amanitas, but it wasn't a pleasent one. Somewhere around 22:00 SWIM's brother, whom I will call M for short, ate couple of mushrooms that were partially dried. He didn't finish them but ate the drier parts and left the center uneaten. A little while later M became nauseous and appeared a little bit drunken, so they proceeded to smoke some weed outside. After that M decided to get to his own room to lay down because of the nausea.

    At about 24:00 SWIM heard some rambling at the other end of the house. After a while wondering what's that he heard loud shouting and cursing, so he went off to see what's going on there. When he opened the door he saw M holding an egyptian stone-cat statue and shouting at the top of her lungs, sounding very frightened and angry. He dropped the statue and I started to tell him everything is all right and asking him what's going on, but after a while he noticed that M wouldn't see or hear him but just kept on shouting. They weren't even alone, but there was SWIM's youngest brother sleeping in the next room with his friend, and they had no clue what was going on.

    I had to stay there to keep an eye of M because he wouldn't stay still but would jump up all the time and fall down as soon as he got up. He had obviously been hitting walls and desks in his room before SWIM came in and the pain just got him more furious. Eventually the youngest brother came in to see what's going on and he was understandably shocked, but stayed there to help SWIM out. Once they weren't careful enough and M fell head first to the floor and hit his eyecorner, getting a decent sized wound and making him shout and struggle like madman. They had to watch him for three hours after which M finally calmed down enough to sleep.

    SWIM and his brother kept keeping an eye of M in case he would wake up. Checking his breathing and pulse, they took turns to watch him. I thought that M would sleep it off and they would get to explain to him in the morning how messed up it had got. But when M started slowly so some signs of waking up, at around 6AM, when it'd been 8 hours from the ingestion, SWIM slowly made the depressing realization that M still couldn't talk anything coherent and didn't have a clue where he was. He made loud moaning sounds, like trying to clear one's throat, which was propably explained by a bruise in his throat, which he had to have hit somewhere, propably on the desk. He started moving around a little and puked a couple of times on a bedware he was sleeping on on a floor, and soiled himself too.

    In the midst of all that they had to try to keep it from his father, who was, on top of all, very anti-drug. He had been sleeping on another house on the yard and came in for a while before going to work to eat a breakfast. Ofcourse he had to peek in the room at some point, as if it wouldn't have been hard enough night. I don't remember what he said, but he was frightened and angry and didn't and shut the door soon and stormed off. It must've been quite a sight, the room all messed up, blood stains on a bed and M lying on the floor in the middle of puke.

    After an hour he decided to finally call an ambulance, because he didn't have the energy to hold his brother longer, and it'd been almost 12 hours after the ingestion, and M still hadn't got a contact of the outside world. It was a great relief that it was finally going to be over and he could get sleep. Ofcourse he had been a bit worried about M's health, too, because no one knew how badly he'd been hitting his head before he came in.

    His brother was released the next day from the hospital. He had slowly came too during the day he was submitted in and started realizing were he was. He was so glad to be alive, even though he woke from hospital. From his perspecive, he had thought he had gotten in hell. He didn't know what was going on, but there were painfull strikes regurarly and he could do nothing to stop them. He was amazed because he didn't think hell existed, but had to believe when he found himself in midst of it. He had a sense that he needed to struggle to win the hell, and that's why he was furiously trying to get up all the time. His eyecorner got stiched, and his throat was soar for a couple of days, but otherwise he was allright. They had tested his urine so he had to go to meetings with social workers afterwards.

    So, while this kind of reaction may be rare, be prepared for it. M thinks the fact that he went asleep was a cause for this kind of reaction. He said he has read of other people go completely oblivious to the external world when they have fallen asleep, too. It was still exceptionally long, well over 12 hours spent in completely another world.
     
  20. Bajeda

    Bajeda Super Moderator Platinum Member & Advisor

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