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Day 5 clean of suboxone , is this the end of WDs , or the Beginning ?

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by subbbhuman, Jun 17, 2012.

  1. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    My friend has made it thru 5 days without Bupe. He's had some help along the way, Clonopin mostly , Clonodine the first 3 nights, some loperamide And finally some jumbo Maeng Da Kratom last night. Now keep in mind , he took the kratom at about 6:30 last night, and he still feels relatively WD-Free ( at 9:20 am) ! took 2 caps of the Lucky brand Maeng Da Kratom so apparently thats 1 gram per capsule. Debatable , but is he just over the hump in feeling absolutely atrocious or has the kratom had a significant effect on my receptors and neurotransmitters ? Have also been taking creatine , protein and working out , playing around 4 hours of basketball or running per day. is he closer to the end ? or is it about to get much worse ? on day 5.5 mind you ! or has the kratom done the miraculous to his receptors and mind ?
     
  2. TheBigBadWolf

    TheBigBadWolf Cold Member

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    Hard to say.
    This depends on how much bupe you have taken for how long.
    Answering this could be helpful in estimationg whether you are gonna be fine or if this is the start.
    Due to it's long half-life time buprenorphine needs some days to clear out of the system.

    When taking Kratom it is no great wonder that you don't feel w/ds of the bad kind, kratom's alkaloids work on the same receptor sites as the opioids do.
    So they DO have a significant effect.

    TBBW
     
  3. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    He's been on suboxone since august 2011. was on 4mgs until a few weeks ago i jumped to 2mgs. then after a week cut down to like .5mg or at least less than one. hard to calculate when your cutting up the strips. was on less than 1 mg for a week then jumped 5 days ago.ive heard that bupe can be saturated in your bones, skin cells , fat , muscle. everything. ive been exercising alot in the past 5 days.
     
  4. Mr. Grindhouse

    Mr. Grindhouse Titanium Member

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    TheBigBadWolf has it right...Buprenorphine has a mean half-life of 36 hours...which is kind of astounding to me. Coupled with the fact that it is a mu, delta and nociceptin full agonist with a very high binding affinity, it tends to linger in your system longer than you expect...

    I would say that since you have been on Bupe for the better part of a year, your withdrawals (or at least acute withdrawal symptoms) will last longer than 5 days. Granted you have cut your dose down dramatically, I would still allow for 14 days or so.

    Day 5 is a big step! Congrats! Every day from here on out will seem to get exponentially better (not easier, unfortunately) but better nonetheless...

    Keep it going!

    I'm headed to work, and will post with more info when I can...
     
  5. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    thanks for the reply. the encouragement helps more than you could possible imagine. My friend of a friend has to do a workshop on sports blogging techniques on wednesday , which would be day 8 of no bupe. Hoping hes at least able to function for that.
     
  6. Tigey

    Tigey

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    Tigey can take the workshop for you if you pay his plane fare (business class w/ flat bed thx)!

    I would expect the withdrawals to last longer, like others have said, and planning your time before the workshop may be key - some exercise, healthy food (chicken noodle soup is the main thing I used) and a hot shower before the workshop should make it more manageable.

    You could just be lucky. Receptors function the same chemically in everyone, but we all have different receptor densities and the bind strength varies. I would slow down on the Kratom round about now and use it to cover withdrawals as they start, if you need to use it, rather than pre-empt withdrawal symptoms that you think might occur. Kratom has it's own issues and a large addiction potential - and swapping one for the other is not where you sound like you're at, at the moment!

    How is your day going today? Any changes? The exercise and activity will help your body metabolise everything faster - I found that each time I went for a swim my body decided it 'needed' it's next does of oxycontin earlier. Other people might not find this - I blame metabolism and pharmodynamics.

    In fact, I call shenanigans!

    peace & claws,

    Tigey
     
  7. thirdeyelasik

    thirdeyelasik Silver Member

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    First off let me say congrats on getting off of opiates...doing the same was one of the hardest thing of my friends life. My friend came off of suboxone and then started using kratom to help with the w/d's...problem is that kratom is addicting and has now become his opiate. Stay strong and within 2 weeks you should be feeling more like yourself...don't trade one addiction for another.
     
  8. detoxking

    detoxking Silver Member

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    I hope you're still managing to keep off the suboxone. I found it easier droppping from 8,6,4 dowm to 2mg. I then swapped over to subutex coz they are available in UK as 0.4mg buprenorphine. The last small drops I felt more "alert" and my thinking began to become less hazy. When I finally dropped off the buprenorphine, I didn't notice any real withdrawals until day 3. They peaked at day 7 and then I started to feel physically better, ever so slightly each day. It took about two weeks before I felt physically well, but emotionally I felt depressed and anxious for about a month. It is difficult to come off any drug that has been suppressing you're emotions. When they come back they can be very uncomfortable and scary. It is something that you just can't really avoid, PAWS is horrible and I would reccommend that you take a break, as little stress as possible, and get some support. Try and get into a routine, go to bed at the same time even if you can't sleep, and try not to spend too much time alone.
     
  9. salgoud

    salgoud

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    It sounds like he tapered first, which is what one should do. As I understand it, 0.5mgs, which is around a normal dose. Kratom may be good, and may be bad, I really don't know, I tried Kratom and didn't feel a thing. So I use Lomotil 2.5mg tabs. They cross the blood brain barrier and help with the W/D's immensely. Taking four Lomotil will subside the Suboxone W/D's dramatically, at least for me.

    A normal dose of Lomotil is 2.5mg/and contains atropine to discourage misuse. However, I have found the atropine does not deter taking perhaps 20mg of Lomotil or eight tabs at a time. The Wiki's and what not say that a normal dose of diphenoxylate (Lomotil) to reach an equivalent to morphine 15mg I.V. is around 60mg. It is a close relative to Demerol and is very easy to kick.

    Thus, the Kratom may be more addicting than the Suboxone he was taking at 0.5mgs. I've found that Lomotil 2.5 taken in 4 tab increments over a period of two weeks not only smooths the withdrawal from Suboxone out, but also no goosebumps, no diarrhea, no gags, no real depression, easy to sleep while W/Ding from Suboxone.

    As far as Suboxone being a fat retaining drug, just because it has a 36 hour half-life. Remember, that is the mean for individuals. Some people may have a 12 hour half-life, some may have a 48 hour half-life.

    Personally, when I took a 15 mile bike ride to the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs, I must have sweated most of the buprenorphine out, because when I got home I was in mild withdrawals. I had to take another half a strip to feel right. So I'm not sure that buprenorphine is a medication that stores in the fat cells. All drugs enter the tissues, however, buprenorphine seems to exit with ease from my experience.

    It is a water soluble opiate like other opiates. It is not synthetic, but semi-synthetic like oxycodone, oxymorphone and etorphine. If one exercises till one sweats, the buprenorphine seems to leave the system very fast, and as far as being a drug that builds up in the fat, I have reservations about that claim. I would like to see some research to prove that. Usually, a detox from Suboxone takes approximately two weeks when one jumps off at 2mg. Your friend jumped off at 0.5mgs, which is a good dose to jump off at.

    I would recommend hard exercise and Lomotil for any discomfort. I did it before with little or no withdrawals. The mental W/D's are always the kicker. They kick in after all opiates are out of the body. The mind craves them because of the low endorphin levels in the brain. Good luck and your friend might have beat the W/D's by tapering down to 0.5mgs and taking preferably a small dose of Kratom. It may turn out, that he has detoxed Suboxone. Keep us updated on how he is feeling, mentally and physically.

    Just another tool in the arsenal to make a detox as comfortable as possible.

    salgoud
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2012
  10. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    It took a handsome gentleman I know 14 days to reach the point where he knew he was in withdrawal. The hardest part for him was knowing that, unlike quick acting withdrawal where it just hit him after 24 hours, that he had not come close to what the withdrawals would be. Within 6 days he started to feel worse and worse. He had panic, anxiety, trouble getting comfortable. The way he made it was this.

    1. He stopped after 6 days and sought help from a physician. Kratom would have been just as effective.
    2. He switched to strictly tramadol for 8 days.
    3. It still took several more days to reach the peak of his withdrawal
    4. It was at this time that he utilized muscle relaxants, benzodiazepines, melatonin, chamomile tea, and eventually trazadone to try and get sleep.
    5. After about a week and a half he noticed everything but his bowel movements and his mood were improved. He felt emotionless and had some intense problems with bowels that he had a hard time dealing with. He remains unsure to this day whether his constant constipation ruined his insides but imodium made it feel like there was only a sheet of paper in the way of watery diarrhea. It worked but not as well as he hoped.

    6. He avoided sex for quite awhile. It made him feel poorly about himself unless done solo.

    7. Due to being with the wrong girl, he started using suboxone again because he did not realize that he would be a different man. He would need to set clearer boundaries. He could no longer do everything he wanted. He needed to retrain his body and mind. Adjust to only needing 7 hours of sleep a day. And realize that after a few months, he wouldnt feel so numb inside and that it does go away.

    You need all opiates out to clear your system. That includes kratom. you would not be out of the woods in 6 days. Depending. The handsome gent I refer to was on 32 mgs a day for 2 years. Cut down to 8 mgs a day and decided that was when he would do the tramadol substitute so he could do it quickly rather than have to wait for the height of the withdrawal which took so much patience regardless.

    I wish you the best. Things get better. However you get yourself out, I applaud. It will be hard. But you will also be amazed at how much better life can be. For example, this gent realized that despite just coming off withdrawal, he memorized things from his classes like a champ. He was impaired but unaware of the deficits he personally had. It was easier for him the first time, prior to everyday benzodiazepine usage through prescription (0.5 mg alprazolam xr daytime, 1 mg night). That seemed to dull him out and cause the PAWS to be significantly worse for him than without benzodiazepines the first time (other than his use for the acute symptoms).
     
  11. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    hes been taking no more than 2 g's of kratom per day most days he only takes 1 G .hadnt taken kratom until about day 3 of WDs .he had only taken the kratom bc he needed some WD relief during the day. at night he has clonodine and ambien ... But yes if you want to sit through 4 hours of sports blogging babbling egotistical hell , be my guest !! LOL !! but yes hes been exercising like a freak , working out , playing basketball for hours and hours at a time. Gonna try the swimming tonight or tommorow , depending on the temperature of the water of course. The cold water in addition to WD temp changes wont exactly feel good i presume. But will definitely try it out for a little bit. Got some some sunburn too so that should take some of the thought of WDs away... a little bit. thanks for the encouragement , morale is HIGH right now, maybe just because hes loopy from klonopin:thumbsup: but seriously , mentally hes in a very good spot. just wish he could rid himself of this so he can be free of the other stuff he taking to combat WDs. Thanks Tigey , means alot.

    subbbhuman added 31 Minutes and 29 Seconds later...

    is Lomotil prescription required ? havent heard of it. I looked it up it says only for medical purposes but doesnt specify whether its OTC in America. No gags would be great , my friend couldnt even feed his dog without gagging from the stench. which doesnt happen normally. not fully detoxed yet as you eluded to but feels pretty decent , considering what hes been thru before. gonna go to the store to see if he can get Lomotil.

    subbbhuman added 9 Minutes and 4 Seconds later...

    my friends bowel movements have been surprising normal. maybe its the immodium. But i must ask , you were clean from Subs for 14 days before withdrawals hit you ? that is incredibly horrible. horror stories like that make me feel unsure and discouraged about where i am. dont think i can maintain for another 8 days... not sure though. well cross that bridge when we approac it, but i very much appreciate your input. all the responses i have gotten have been incredibly helpful and i thank all of you so much. I cant really talk to my friends about this because tehy dont understand withdrawl.my friends arent addicts. bt once again. thank you all so very much,
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  12. TheBigBadWolf

    TheBigBadWolf Cold Member

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    Subbbhuman,

    Yo, Lomotil is prescription only,- it has an opioid and atropine, a nightshades alkaloid in it.

    Great that your mood is so high. With holding this attitude upright it might be much easier to go through what might come in the next days. Please be aware that there is more to withdrawing an opioid than the actual physical withdrawal and have a thorough read through
    Help for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (PAWS) after Opiate Withdrawal.

    Don't think that I want to scare you, not at all, I only want you to know that you should be ready to have to experience some afterglow of your opioid days. You did not become addicted to this stuff in a day, it will also take quite a while to get rid of this shit.

    But I am very positive that you will go through this with minor problems,- I mean you are aware of what you do, you seem to be motivated very well,- just go on doing the good work.

    Please keep us updated.
    Best wishes to you.

    TBBW
     
  13. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    He may have made things worse and prolonged them by using tramadol for 2 weeks. He doesnt know the exact amount of time it would have taken otherwise. I guess the message I was trying to get across is the hardest part was getting to the point where he knew he wasnt going to get any worse. That took much longer than the short acting opiates he used years earlier. Once he reached his peak symptoms, he would say that it took 7 days. But it was not as hard as the 3 days of hard withdrawal on fast acting opiates. My friend remembers smiling about it because it was the biggest hurdle he had to overcome since he had done withdrawal before. It was fear of the unknown that made it worse than it was.

    He thought it would be easier switching to a weak opiate and then going about withdrawal faster. But in the end, he shot himself in the foot probably prolonging it which is what I do not recommend (kratom use included). He may have hit his peak faster if he didnt go about it that way. It seemed to take forever to reach the worst he was going to feel. But that was just it. It felt like it but it wasnt much longer than the typical. Once he got past it, it wasnt the cravings that got to him. Those were practically non-existent after the hell imposed from withdrawal. It was expecting too much of himself too fast. Not treating it like it was some sort of long disease that had to take its course.

    I wish I could remember more about my friend's experience. But he doesnt recall actual days. Tramadol was used for 2 weeks (approx), he went off tramadol and withdrawal came. It took a lot longer than usual but it came. He remembers one time going off suboxone for 6 days and not really feeling anything except lack of motivation and weird. He didnt have to do anything during those 6 days. Those were his drug holiday days and didnt feel a thing. That was early on in his treatment.

    I would recommend getting someone you trust and who would be understanding. The guy I know uses his family since his addiction has not hurt them or anyone else for that matter. Getting bills paid for 2 months if possible (like rent) or having a family member handle the affairs. He had the luxury of not having work at this period of time and used his time to take walks, watch tv, and try anything he could so he wouldnt lose his mind. He hated being around people except for the select few who watched over and did not make him do anything he wasnt comfortable with.

    I wish you well. Best advice I can give is don't focus on whats coming. Play video games, spend plenty of time with the one person you know can make you laugh no matter what, watch t.v. shows that you heard good things about, and watch things you remember enjoying because they help the time go by. He started watching firefly during this time with his brother. He remembers getting sleep sometimes while it was on and his brother was in the room because just those two things were enough to make him feel better.
     
  14. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    i did not do tramadol

    subbbhuman added 5 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

    my friend didnt do tramadol either , but he used Kratom , Klonopin , Clonodines, loperamide and ambien and other vitamins things like Creatine , Protein , some gaba, L tyrosine , CAL-MAG-ZINC all in one ( which he highly reccomends to anyone in opiate or subxone withdrawal : Stops Rls drastically . I just got back frrom the Gym actually. Feeling decent enough and gonna take an ambien to sleep instead of Clonodine to completely avoid blood pressure issues.

    subbbhuman added 12 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

    just reading though your entire post now littlebare, sorry to misinterpret you.

    subbbhuman added 25 Minutes and 5 Seconds later...

    Little bEar , my bud is starting an internship in september , he hopes to be light years ahead of where he is mentally now.Also , I'm living with my parents for now and haven't had an oppurtunity to make lots of money . So that stuff will for the most part be taken care of by his loving parents. His parents are up to date with pretty much what day his WDs are lol . but He doesnt have that much to put off, so relaxing will be in abundance. Also Hes 20 Years Old btw lol.So things are good . Hes talking and hanging out with this girl he likes. about once a week they go down to the harbor and just go on a dock and just talk. Nothing too serious had only gone out a few times. But i like her, shes a brain tumor survivor so i draw so much inspiration for her. I look forward to hanging out with her pure , no drugs in my body , or on my mind . And who knows, He hasentt been in a real relationship for like 3 years which ended cuz of his actions as an addict. So obviously taking it slow / being smart.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  15. southern girl

    southern girl

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    Hey subbbhuman. Thank you for keeping us updated on your journey. You are doing so incredibly well, you should definitely feel empowered right now.

    Try not to psych yourself out too much while reading other people's WD timeline. Not only was littlebare on 32mgs for 2yrs which would cause quite a build up in the system, but he also used tramadol so like he said, that could have prolonged the WD. Keep in my mind what he said, it wasnt as bad as the 3 days of hard withdrawal from short-acting opiates. I think if I had to choose, I would choose a less intense longer withdrawal than a very intense short withdrawal.

    No kratom is not ideal, but using kratom while your feeling like you cant take anymore is a hell of a lot better than using some kind of opiate or going back on subs. There is no shame in using comfort meds, the only thing is to be aware of your use of the said comfort meds and be sure not pick up any extra addictions such as benzo's or other sedatives or even kratom.

    You are doing extremely excellent though. You really are. You give others inspiration and hope that it is doable. You know, I truly believe that opiate addiction is one of the hardest things one could go through in life, it maybe a hell of our own making, but a hell nonetheless. Once you've gotten through this, most things in life will seem like a piece of cake and it will make you a stronger person inside and out.

    Good luck and Keep us updated

    Much Love

    SG.xxx

    Oh yeah, I also wanted to say that you are doing all the right things, and excellent job on getting in so much exercise. That is no doubt helping your body recover faster. You're doing great kid : )
     
  16. detoxking

    detoxking Silver Member

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    Sounds like your friend has done everything possible to ease the withdrawals. I very much doubt that they will get any worse - by now they should be starting to get better. Taking any kind of opiate in the mean time will just prolong them. It's always tempting to pop a couple of codeine pills or tramadol "just for one day" but you know the drill. Your friend sounds like a very bright guy with a lot to live for and in a good position to make the best of life. I spend too many of my days regretting the last 10 years - don't end up in the same position when you are 30. You mentioned something about 14 days before withdrawals kick in - the physical withdrawals will be over by then, but after 14 days you just need to take care of your mental health. Everyones different, and it gets worse the longer you have been in addiction, but take some time to look at PAWS and how to deal with it, just in case it creeps up on you. Not trying to scare you, just letting you know that sometimes it can creep up on you when your not expecting it. Exercise is deffo a great idea - I have talked to doctors and specialists, and opiates do not bind to any fatty cells, they are all water soluble, and exercising will certainly help to metabolise any leftover opiates in your system more quickly. And it will also help kick your natural endorphins in, which will really speed up your recovery. Good luck to your friend.
     
  17. salgoud

    salgoud

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    It is impressive and refreshing to hear that a 20 year old friend of subhuman is on the way to recovery and completely off opiates. I think your friend has done an outstanding job detoxing. I'm glad he didn't take tramadol. Myself and others I know realize it is a very addicting synthetic opiate. Some states have made it a Schedule IV narcotic. I know a couple people who got on the methadone clinic to get off tramadol (kind of extreme, but tramadol addiction is not an easy addiction to kick.)

    The reason I mentioned Lomotil is because is passes the blood brain barrier, where loperamide does not. Lomotil is a Schedule V controlled substance in the U.S. and does require a prescription, but I mentioned it because very few people realize the low addiction potential for Lomotil and how valuable it is in a detox: 10mg of Lomotil a couple of times a day does little harm and give great comfort. IMO.

    The first time on was on Suboxone I was on for two years. Then one day when I was talking to my Suboxone doctor, he said he will be moving to Durango and will not be practicing medicine in my city anymore. I was devastated. I asked him, "Listen, you realize we are all going to go through W/D's from Suboxone, and I asked him for one last prescription and for some Lomotil for the diarrhea. To my amazement he gave me 90 Lomotils with 2 refills. That is how I tapered from Suboxone, by using Lomotil in 4 tab increments when I felt uncomfortable. I ended up never picking up the 2 refills, I didn't need to. Although, Lomotil (diphenoxylate) is not OTC in the U.S. it is OTC in many countries where the water isn't up to par, like Jamaica, Mexico, and most countries in South America.

    Anyway, I am glad your friend is conquering this awful addiction at a young age. Now you both have the rest of your life to do something positive and rewarding, instead of artificially rewarding yourself. As far as the PAWS at 20 your friend couldn't have been on opiate too long, so it won't take too long to get over the PAWS or mental cravings, just remember amino acids are the building blocks for endorphins. Lot's of protein shakes full of amino acids.

    salgoud
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2012
  18. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    Southern Girl , I agree with you 100% , it is HELL on earth. It's that way for a reason , you're spoon feeding chemicals to your CNS and thats what my friend gets for using. In 12th grade , last year of HS , my friend went to rehab. Came back on a cloud, 6 months later got back into everything 10x worse. Roxis , pretty much any thing opiate. And DetoxKing Thats why he will never ever think about taking codeine or anything else like that. He looks forward to the day where he is 100 % clean , no need to cover up pain or depression with narcotics or herbs . He feels like a hypocrite because he's coming up on 1 year clean off Opiates ( i realiize Bupe is an op but he still considers it a Mountain that was not easily climbed. at 11 months right now ) , he doesnt go to NA , it just plants a seed of thought of those tastey drugs. I cant sit thru that for an hour. But to me , he is 11 months clean , because its been 11 months since he touched that demon chemical. Albeit he has been on suboxone.Even though he's so young , he feels very old because of the 5-6 years of horrible experiences due to his addiction. hes been thru a lot. Made a lot of progress and this is the last step before he can worry about real life and dealing with problems like normal people. Thanks guys. Found myself tearing up while reading Southern Girls post , so thanks for that :')

    subbbhuman added 24 Minutes and 25 Seconds later...

    Also , he took an ambien last night, things got a little weird. Felt really great , til he tried to sleep. The body does weird things when the CNS is thrown into " catastrophe mode" .. Really quite amazing how the body reacts and tells you " This shit is NOT good at all " .. Oh yeah and idk if I mentioned this but he went to the gym at like 10PM -12Am, felt AMAZING. but Right now , my friend is sipping on some tonic water feeling decent, gonna see how long before he needs a K Pin or kratom. Gonna get the car washed , toke a little reefer and take it easy today. also send his resume out to a few places and look for a new job.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2012
  19. TheBigBadWolf

    TheBigBadWolf Cold Member

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    Subbbhuman,

    this laid -back attitude is gonna help you much on yiour further way.
    Keep this up. When a spliff can be helpful for relaxation, use it, just don't overdo it.

    Having a relaxed attitude is one additional step in your recovery.
    Just don't panic.

    TBBW
     
  20. subbbhuman

    subbbhuman

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    Thank you all for the encouragement and advice. Have to wake up at like 7am and still up at 3:30 , well see how it goes for him. Took a clonodine to Try to get some sleep. Some is better than none. I wanna thank all of for your replies as they kept myFriend and I sane and something to look forward to. This site is a godsend for recovering addicts who wanna try again the right way and need advice along the way. On day 8.5 but still feeling minor symptoms. I'll talk to y'all when I wake up. One quote from a dance Gavin dance song keeps crawling its way to my brain -- "couldn't brace yourself in the morphine hallway , while lying on the ground with your heart as a ball and chain " Thanks again and much love.