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Experiences - Dimethocaine DMC

Discussion in 'Research Chemicals' started by tyranny4u, Jun 15, 2009.

  1. tyranny4u

    tyranny4u Newbie

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    Dimethocaine (DMC) aka Larocaine trip reports

    Please add your experiences with Dimethocaine here. Please add dosage, route and duration to the top of your post like this:


    Info about this drug (other than experiences) should be discussed here: Dimethocaine Drug info

    Research Chemicals Index – Piperazines
    Research Chemicals Index - Phenethylamines
    Research Chemicals Index - Tryptamines
    Research Chemicals Index - Beta-Ketones

    ********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


    SWIM ordered one gramm of the stuff and 3 days later received it.
    He read that it had around 25 % of the potency of Cocaine, but as a
    synthetic analgesic it was very bad to the heart.

    OK, SWIM sniffed a small street to test slowly, so it was a line that was
    the size of a match, if not less. After 20 minutes or so SWIM thought, that
    this nice feeling could be increased, so sniffed a small line again.
    It was a slight stimulant feeling, being awake but also feeling cosy at
    the same time. Then SWIM decided to shoot 80 - 100 mg iv, which gave
    a real nice buzz. And no craving 20 minutes later like bad coce could give
    SWIU. But a slight craving occured and SWIM did 2 shots again. In the
    evening the whole gramm was consumed. There was no bad thoughts
    like SWIU could get from coce, like "oh no, that was the last shot, i'm
    so depressed, i must die now. Please someone kill me..."

    Pros: Feels like "Cocaine light", no strong craving, no bad comedown.
    Actually one can't compare it to Coce, SWIM thinks. But it gives good
    mood.

    Cons: cost/
    The stuff has bad side effects, especially on the heart. Several sources
    tell different things about the potency of Dimethocaine compared to
    blow. But it gives no hard buzz when iv'ed in bigger amounts. SWIM
    would not recommend it. There is not enough positive to tell about it
    in SWIM's opinion. One could get better stuff for that amount of money
    SWIM paid. Even the rush was quite nice, the bad side effects make it
    a substance that could be tried once, but not on a regular scheme.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2010
  2. RaverHippie

    RaverHippie Gold Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    You ought to edit the post to remove the price of the product since price discussion is forbidden. Otherwise, thanks for the report on the product!
     
  3. Lehendakari

    Lehendakari Gold Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    any other reports? Shouldn't this be in the RC fora?
     
  4. cra$h

    cra$h Silver Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    By the name given of the product it sounds like a coca plant dirivitive, but could be classified as an RC, kinda in a grey zone.

    It sounds a little like speed. Less euphoria and more stress on the heart
     
  5. enquirewithin

    enquirewithin Newbie

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    I have also read that this material is only 10% the potency of coke as far as euphoria goes.
     
  6. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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  7. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    Dimethocaine, also known as larocaine, is a local anaesthetic with stimulant properties nearly as potent as cocaine.

    In actual fact, according to the last reference, although Dimethocaine is ~ cocaine as a local anaesthetic, in order to achieve "euphoria" (DAT occupancy ≥ 65%), the dose needed to be taken is ten times greater than for cocaine.

    The p-NH2 pharmacophore in dimethocaine is an interesting structural feature.

    Additionally, dimethocaine has recognizable features that have been seen for carisoprodol.

    (from wiki)
     
  8. DarkDead

    DarkDead Silver Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    Gender: male
    Body weight: 65Kg
    Age: 19

    Previous experience with stimulants
    : SWIM has little experience with stimulants, he has only tried amphetamine (1x) and methylone (bk-MDMA) (2x) both in moderate doses.

    Experience no. 1

    Setting
    : At home
    When SWIM got dimethocaine he searched through the web trying to find the correct dosages with no luck. So he searched for cocaine and found 50mg to be a good start. Although dimethocaine is less potent than cocaine SWIM decided to stick with 50mg insufflated to test for allergic reactions.

    t+0m - SWIM makes two lines with 50mg of dimethocaine, he snorts one to each nostril. It doesn't burn and feels real smooth. After some time there is a chemical taste in the back of SWIM's throat and a runny nose, although nothing uncomfortable.
    t+15m - Nothing.
    t+30m - Nada. No more runny nose.
    t+1h - 100mg of dimethocaine used to make two more lines. Again it didn't burn.
    t+1h30m - SWIM feels a bit speedy, opened eye but with no rush. He says he's experiencing the speed LSD gives but, of course, without the psychedelic component. The Beatles, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is just amazing.
    t+1h45m - SWIM is laying in his bed and his mind is running trough an immensity of thoughts. He's imagining scenarios and putting himself, friends and familiars as characters there, it's like writing a play.
    t+4h - Starting to come down.
    t+5h - There is a lingering sensation like what SWIM felt with methylone.

    Experience no. 2

    Setting
    : At the local festivities

    t+0m - SWIM insufflates 100mg all to one nostril and at once, by accident. The powder was in a straw with a bent end, similar to a cocaine bullet, and SWIM sniffed too hard. This time it burns but SWIM avoids sneezing. He cries from one eye during 5 minutes and gets a runny nose for almost 1 hour.
    t+15m - Effects are coming but slowly, again without rush.
    t+1h - While chatting the effects aren't noticeable, it's just SWIM talking as usual.
    t+1h30m - But when SWIM sits down and relaxes his body feels nice, there's a little buzz and music is astonishing.
    t+3h - At a concert. At first there was no desire to move but SWIM ended jumping around like mad. Most of the credits go to the band.
    t+4h - Coming down, feeling tired and yawning a lot.
    t+6h - SWIM goes to bed, there are some after-effects and he has trouble falling asleep. SWIM wakes up some times during the night which is unusual for him. After 9 hours of sleep SWIM is tired but it gets better during the day.

    SWIM believes he can increase to 200mg safely and will report soon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  9. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    the critter was also given a chance to sample this.
    a proper report will be written after it is retested.

    initial results are interesting, some elements are definetly cocaine like, a certain mental clarity, crispness, fatigue relief, rebound stimulant effects the next morning, muscular tension, tachycardia.

    psychologically it's really not strong, and in this differs a lot from cocaine, no rush or euphoria, just a slight uplift, boost in enthusiasm tops.

    expensive compound, and moreish- and in this potentially dangerous due to the intense anesthesia / cardiovascular consequences, and effects more physical than psychological.
    yet not totally without interest for the relative mental cleaness of effects, little to no comedown, and longer-term after effects pretty cocaine like, tension, edgyness, sleeplessness and anorexia, yet no real depression/dispair.

    seems to work in a closed-circuit gratification loop similar to compounds like mephedrone, where effects are not that pleasant yet one feels the urge to do more, and physical consequences with such a strong anesthetic could surely lead to serious health issues.

    b
     
  10. dozzy

    dozzy Silver Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    After a first trial of a half gramm during 3 days a friend reported this:
    A kind of unique high.It does not hit you fast like cocaine,it sneaks up on you.
    No rush but a "good feeling" for several hours.It reminded him a little of
    STABLON(french antidepressiva),rather than cocaine.No rush,no urge to redose,and
    alas no sexual stimulation.Lines were about 100 mg.No health issues so far.
     
  11. DarkDead

    DarkDead Silver Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    As planned SWIM decided to increase the dose in his next trials. Unfortunately he just had 168mg left in the bag and a pre-weighted amount of 100mg stored in a straw (substitute for a cocaine bullet as described in the post above). With this there was no way to increase gradually to 200mg so he decided to take these two doses separately as they were.

    Experience no. 3

    Setting
    : At home
    168mg was a lot of powder, SWIM split it into two lines, one to each nostril and inhaling calmly he avoided sneezing. There was the usual runny nose which was gone in t+20min. Again no rush was felt and the effects weren't more pronounced than with 100mg.
    SWIM had difficulties in getting a bonner and even more achieving orgasm. However it was more intense than usual and left SWIM with a pleasurable buzz feeling through his body that lasted almost half an hour.
    The comedown came at t+4h as with previous experiences.

    Experience no. 4

    Setting
    : On the train to college and at a lecture
    t+0m - SWIM snorts 100mg. Numbness is felt in his sinuses, nose and throat as he makes he's way to the railway station.
    t+40m - Felling something, as previously the come up is really subtle and SWIM has probably reached the peak without noticing. Although he does notice that he's reading faster and faster. He turns page after page of The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond and all the concepts from previous ones keep present in his mind. Sober that's not always the case, has some times SWIM needs to look back to recall a concept to make sense of the current sentence.
    t+1h - Listening to music feels good.
    t+2h - Attending a physics lecture. Feeling open-eyed and very attentive. SWIM can almost follow the professor in he's mental calculations.
    t+2h30m - There's a smooth and wavy body feeling, a bit entactogenic. If he had the chance SWIM would love to lie in bed and pass some time wondering about life.
    t+3h - Coming down with the body feeling still present. SWIM suspects he prefers this rather than the beginning, or at least it's more present than the absent rush that should accompany the come up.
    t+4h - Reaching baseline and starting to feel a bit tired.

    The objective of this last experience was to see if dimethocaine had any value has a work/study aid. Apparently it does, at least until t+2h30, improving concentration and alertness. Having no rush is a plus to this sort of application: another distraction avoided. [Warning: to those thinking about using dimethocaine regularly, please don't, this is a RC. It hasn't a defined profile and may have unknown dangers. Although SWIM doesn't find it addictive this might not apply to others to whom the urge to redose can be similar to cocaine.]

    SWIM agrees with this description. As reported in his subsequent experiences the "good body feeling" became apparent and unlike swi' Benga he got no urge to redose as the comedown was smooth and long.

    SWIM doesn't plan to order any more by now and has to leave further experimentation to others. Please don't forget to report.
     
  12. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    the dimethocaine the critter was fed from a notoriously unknowledgeable RC source. critter doubts it actually was dimethocaine.....

    one of the dangers is well known : dimethocaine is a strong local anaesthethic, and vasoconstriction with a higher dosing ranging than cocaine- ie potentially more dangerous than cocaine on a cardiovascular level.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
  13. dozzy

    dozzy Silver Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    A question about the "strong local anaesthethic" properties.My friend did not notice
    any kind of numbness in his nose(which he gets from good cocaine).
    How come ?
     
  14. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    that's very odd indeed. there's something odd with the currently circulating batches of "dimethocaine". critter sampled three, one of which had a marked anaesthetic effect, one none, and the other a limited one.
    the most problematic was the second one.
    people should be careful on this one, as there seems to be a little confusion, and the vendors offering this are rather "new" in the trade (one of them now dead).
    It's possible their own sources were unreliable.
     
  15. Azog1

    Azog1 Newbie

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    hi all.

    first post since re-registering; i mislaid my previous credentials from years ago.

    anybee's pet have any experience w/ freebasing this RC?

    don't care if it was the "a la crack" method of sodium (bi)carbonate or
    if it was through the ammonia method. shouldn't make a difference.

    was thinking this may take care of this chem's realitive weakness in comparison to it's big, bad cousin.

    possible side compounds which may form from pyrolyzation concern me but these, if any, would prolly b kept to a minimum through low as possible temp. vaporization, no?


    also,
    anyone's labrat know how this RC is commonly supplied?
    e.g. hcl, citrate, oxalate, tatarate, etc.

    Azog1 added 98 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

    sorry, already i'm messing up.

    i decided to UTFSE and i noticed in annuder post that it's commonly supplied as a hcl salt but,
    that only answers the second, and less important part of my post.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2009
  16. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    hi
    yes, it's an HCl salt.
    interested in potential freebasing information as well.

    as of now, critter has sampled dimethocaine from three different sources.
    only one was truly was satisfying. it was actually quite tan.

    critter was given an NMR of the product, which seemed pretty close to what it should have been according to a forum member's theoretical 1H NM computer simulation.
    what is worrying is the lack of a triplet at around 1 ppm.

    all this to say that in the critter's experience with this coumpound described above, the effects are interesting but also quite disctinct from those of cocaine as there is a form of short lasting inebriation, instead of mental clarity.
    when the dose hits, there is this feeling of mental unclarity, rather than clear headedness. critter doesn't know if this could be due the "worrying" aspect mentioned or not.

    freebasing information would be welcome

    b
     
  17. Azog1

    Azog1 Newbie

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    hmm... Benga,
    interestingly paradoxical effects your critter seems to be describing.

    SWIM may be obtaining some in a month or so and I'm sure he/she will be reporting the results of a freebasing trial.

    anySWIY have any thoughts on how dimethocaine compares to 4-Fluorotropacocaine?

    my pet hedgehog has no experience w/ either compound and is curious as to which of the two, compares most favorably to Charlito.

    as to freebasing the 4-Fluorotropacocaine, SWIM thinks that would prolly be a big no no, due to the fluoro component, yes?
     
  18. Benga

    Benga Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    critter hasn't tried 4-fluorotropacocaine.

    someone mentioned that the NMR thing might imply a mislabeling, which is slightly worrying

    b
     
  19. Snouter Fancier

    Snouter Fancier Gold Member

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    Several dimethocaine experiences, insufflated, smoked, and plugged, by my rhinograde, SWIM.

    Dimethocaine was found to be a very fine, light yellow/tan powder, which tended to clump into solid, flat plaques, which are difficult to break apart into powder again. See attached photo.

    SWIM is a 75 kg male rhinograde, age 58.
    Height: when standing on its nose (see user pic), the rhinograde is 178 cm, 5' 10", or 1.22x10^-11 AU tall.
    Drug used at home, alone.
    SWIM's prior drug experiences: tobacco, caffeine, alcohol; a surprisingly wide array of psychoactive drugs over a lifetime, some prescribed, some obtained, some synthesized, some grown. None taken for more than a few doses, except for caffeine (daily), alcohol (rarely), tobacco and marijuana (neither since the 1970s). SWIM's daily medications are 2 grams of Omega-3 oil, 650 mg choline bitartrate, 3200 mg piracetam, and a multivitamin/mineral tab. He has no known major medical problems.

    Heart rates for first three experiences are manual. One of the rhinograde's friends bought him a wrist blood pressure cuff before the four experience, and subsequent BPs and HRs were measured using that cuff.

    First experience: insufflated

    t-1:08 Test dose of 0.5 mg dimethocaine insufflated.

    t-0:05 No noticeable effects.

    t=0.00 HR 96. 50 mg insufflated.

    t+0:04 HR 96. Mild feeling of fullness about the head.

    t-0:52 SWIM notices that the inside of his nose and his throat feel numb. Well, this is a local anesthetic, after all. SWIM is pleased that this drug has at least a fighting chance of actually being what it was sold as. SWIM worried a little bit about airway control, because he knows that local anesthetics delivered the upper airway can, in theory at least, impair the swallowing and cough reflexes.

    t+0:12 SWIM's nose, which had been runny for a few minutes after insufflation, has now cleared out, and feels good. And by 'good', SWIM means 'numb', because noses aren't supposed to feel like anything. SWIM smiles at that thought. SWIM thinks he may be getting a litte bit giddy.

    t+0:14 HR 96.

    t+0:21 HR 100 and regular; oddly, HR subjectively feels faster. Mmm, mild euphoria. Light sweat. Odd feeling of fullness in throat continues, almost certainly due to numbness from the drug. A little anxiety.

    t+0:35 HR 84. Mild euphoria continues. It's more of the giddy/silly variety, rather than the CLUTCHED TO THE BOSOM OF AN UNKNOWN GOD IN THE GOD'S GREAT TALON that SWIM gets with moderate doses of mephedrone. SWIM wonders whether higher heart rates earlier might not have been due more to SWIM's morning coffee than to the dimethocaine.

    t+0:38 SWIM is listening to music. Unlike SWIY's experience in a previous report, music is not better. Porn? Nope, not better either. How about SWIM's art book? Nope, not better. And SWIM is not getting entactogenic from reading the narratives about the artists and their lives, either. He closes the art book and puts it away.

    t+0:50 Less euphoric, but content in the moment.

    t+1:00 2nd dose insufflated, 100 mg. SWIM starts a post reply to DF, but decides not to, because he doesn't trust his level of cognition to maintain coherence.

    t+1:10 SWIM composes a brilliant rant about all the ridiculously poor spellers on DF, then wisely decides not to post it.

    t+1:17 HR 100 and regular, but SWIM has no palpitations this time. Mildly euphoric, less than SWIM expected, having doubled his first dose.

    t+1:36 HR 84. Mild, pleasant euphoria.

    t+2:00 Third and last dose, 100 mg, insufflated.

    t+2:52 Very mildly euphoric. Second two doses didn't seem to produce any increase in SWIM's state. So far, this has been a vastly underwhelming experience.

    t+3:13 HR 88. Nose and throat still numb.

    t+3:25 Dimethocaine must have minimal anorectic properties. SWIM has just finished preparing a light meal with breakfast-like properties. Euphoria noticeable while SWIM is doing things, only apparent if he looks for it.

    t+3:43 HR 80. Meal was very good. SWIM must have been hungry. Even mild euphoria feels like it's ebbing. Goodbye, take care, don't forget to write.

    t+5:27 HR 80. Almost back to normal?

    t+7:31 Definitely back to normal. No crash so far.

    Second experience: smoked

    t=0.00 Smoking 12 mg dimethocaine off foil.

    t+0:14 HR 60. Finished. Stuff volatilized surprisingly cleanly off the foil, leaving absolutely no residue or ash. SWIM feels okay, but without marked euphoria, or much of anything else. Shulgin +/-.

    t+0:33 HR 76. No discernible effects, despite slightly higher heart rate.

    t+1:21 No discernible effects.

    Third experience: smoked, then plugged. No, not the same material, what were you thinking?

    t=0.00 HR 88 SWIM begins to smoke 50 mg dimethocaine.

    t+0:44 HR 88 Completed smoking 50 mg. Took a long time, because SWIM's smoking method is inefficient. SWIM needs to buy a vaporizer if he continues to attempt to smoke stuff. Current mental state no better than Shulgin +/-. Very mild numbness in throat, less than with insufflation.

    t+1:18 Still at Shulgin +/-. Numbness in throat is gone. SWIM is unimpressed with smoked dimethocaine.

    t+1:24 99 mg adminstered rectally, dissolved in 1 ml tap water.

    t+1:44 HR 76 Perhaps a very minimal brightening of mood? Still at Shulgin +/-

    t+2:31 HR 72. Still at Shulgin +/-. Maybe somethin', maybe nuffin, can't tell. For past 30 minutes SWIM has faint feeling of tightness across forehead, which is often his first sign of the onset of an adrenergic CNS stimulant. However, nothing further developed. Perhaps a little lightheadedness? Or perhaps it's all placebo effect and confirmation bias.

    t+2:35 SWIM gives up.

    Fourth experience: plugged.

    t-0:19 HR 60 BP 146/83

    t=0.00 300 mg dissolved in 2 ml tap water administered rectally.

    t+0:02 'Odd' feeling. Nothing definite. Shulgin +/-.

    t+0:09 HR 64 BP 155/80

    t+0:14 Very mild 'high' feeling. Honestly, still at Shulgin +/-. Notably, SWIM's usual tinnitus has not decreased, and may actually have increased (very unusual for a CNS stimulant).

    t+0:19 HR 81 BP 159/82 Feeling content, lighthearted, without cares. Typing may be a bit worse? SWIM is trying really hard to detect pharmacologic effect, and feels maybe he's just making stuff up. He wants to like this drug, but the drug ain't cooperating.

    t+0:34 HR 73 BP 168/78 Still at Shulgin +/-.

    t+0:45 HR 76 BP 162/82 Maybe very slightly giddy? SWIM composes a DF post, then thinks the better of it, because he doesn't trust his judgement. If there's a drug effect, it almost purely relates to mood, and even that is pretty subtle. Tinnitus persists.

    t+1:03 HR 75 BP 137/82 Still waiting for significant drug effect.

    t+1:37 HR 75 BP 156/82 Giving up. If dimethocaine had any effect, it's gone now.

    Summing up:

    Pluses: Mild, pleasant euphoria. Acceptable effect on heart rate at dose studied. No anorexia, no GI symptoms. No apparent effect on peripheral circulation. No GU symptoms: no difficulty with urination, no adverse effect on erection or ejaculation. No crash at dose studied. Drug effects seem to be rapid on, fairly rapid off. NO CRASH! For SWIM, this is a major plus. Deeply annoying prolonged crashes after even modest doses ruin SWIM's enjoyment of other CNS stimulants.

    Minuses: Expensive drug for degree of euphoria achieved. Not trippy, if that's what SWIY is after. Increased heart rate, which might limit higher dosing in search of greater euphoria. Redosing did not increase euphoria, or cardiovascular effects. No entactogenesis. No improvement in cognitive or sensual pleasures. SWIM did not perceive any increase in creativity, or interesting thoughts.

    Potential for addition and abuse: low, despite this drugs's putative similarity to cocaine. SWIM concedes that he may not be using the drug optimally, see below. However, it's also notable that although this drug has been around for a while, it hasn't had much success, if its profile on DF is any indication.

    Other thoughts:

    Insufflation is the preferred method of use. There may be a ceiling on the drug's effects, as doubling the dose, then repeating the doubled dose, did not produce increased effects. Or the ceiling may be on the nasal mucosa's ability to absorb drug. Or SWIM's insufflation technique may be faulty.

    SWIM is concerned that because of the coarse nature of the powder despite his best chopping efforts, a lot may have been lost down the throat on insufflation, resulting in substantial amounts of drug winding up in the stomach, and its effects being lost to first-pass metabolism in the liver, which is typical of local anesthetics. This was the rationale for SWIM's attempts at smoking and plugging. However, those methods of use were even less effective. SWIM may try this drug again, but isn't in any hurry. If he can find a way of chopping it more finely and improving his insufflation technique, the experience might have been better.

    No aphrodisiacal properties at all, either positive nor negative. Sexual performance is neither impaired nor improved.

    SWIM typically feels cold with CNS stimulants. He didn't feel cold with dimethocaine, and in fact, is going without a sweater with an ambient temperature where he would usually wear one. Curious. No, his skin doesn't feel vasodilated.

    SWIM keeps seeing worries about 'cardiotoxicity'. SWIM doesn't understand this. The major toxicity of all the local anesthetics is CNS: cocaine, lidocaine (lignocaine for you Brits), and bupivicaine, three commonly used local anesthetics, all cause seizures at high doses. Lidocaine is a very common drug to treat heart arrhythmias, and it is perfectly safe as it is currently used. Any antiarrhythmic can be a pro-arrhythmic at too high a dose, or in combination with other drugs or conditions, but lidocaine is one of the safer ones. The main cardiotoxicity of cocaine is not its local anesthetic properties, but due to its neurotransmitter re-uptake blocker properties, which increase adrenergic stimulation of the heart, increase MVO2, and which may, at very high doses, cause myocardial infarction (heart attack), or damage the heart gradually if used chronically. Dimethocaine might cause similar problems if used daily for months or years, but for occasional research use, SWIM would worry more about CNS complications than cardiac.

    Executive summary: a pleasant, very mild stimulant, without significant side effects. Worth trying, but don't expect too much.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  20. Ignatius J.

    Ignatius J. Newbie

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    Re: Dimethocaine

    Uhh Snouter Fancier...did your rhino freebase his Dimethocaine before smoking it??

    Otherwise i assume the same is true for dimethocaine hydrochloride as for cocaine hydrochloride --> the vapourisation point is too close to its burning point and therefore smoking it is impossible and your rhino is just burning his stash (and his money)

    Your rhino need to freebase or "crackify" it first i.e. convert the HCL salt back to the freebase which vapourises at much lower temp and hence does not burn. Im not sure if the Ghetto water + bicarb + heat method would work for dimethocaine but it could be worth a try.

    Oh and for a cheap vapouriser, just hollow out a light globe, there's plenty of instructions on the net

    yay. my 1st post after eons of lurking and UTFSE-ing. :crazy