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Combinations - Dissociative/Psychedelic/Deliriant/Cannabis Combo

Discussion in 'DXM' started by PowerfulMedicine, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    The three major classes of hallucinogens are psychedelics, dissociatives, and deliriants. These groups of drugs all have quite different effects. And it seems like it would be fascinating to combine all three in one trip. This would likely lead to extremely intense effects. Though I have never heard of anyone else using a combination like this.

    I have decided that I would like to try this soon. I definitely have enough experience to be able to deal with this sort of trip. I have combined dissociative and deliriant in the past. I've also combined dissociative and psychedelic before. I've never combined a psychedelic with a significant dose of a deliriant before. But I don't think that this should be a problem.

    I plan on using a 2nd plateau dose of DXM and a moderately high dose of HBWR seeds. I am still trying to decide what dose of DPH I will use. I know that the DXM and DPH will potentiate each other. And I have decided to keep the dose of DXM fixed, so I need to find a dose of DPH that won't be too over powering.

    I have mixed 50-250mg of DPH with DXM in past experiments. So far I think that 300mg of DPH is the minimum that I will take for this trip. But I will probably take more since I am aiming for moderate-strong anticholinergic effects.

    I will also smoke a relatively small amount of Cannabis during the trip for its synergistic effects. I might also try to smoke some plain leaf Salvia during the trip just to see what happens.

    This is my plan. I am curious if anyone else has ever tried a combination like this before? And if so, what did you specifically combine and in what doses? How would you describe the effects?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. ThatKiddMC

    ThatKiddMC Newbie

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    i took one hit of salvia while tripping on a small dose of DXM and i had a converstation with my closet door through my record player. (my closet was telling my record player what to say to me and i was telling my record player what to say to my closet) i have no idea what the conversation was about but i do remember that my closet and my record player looked like cartoon people/objects, and i also remember saying outloud to myself "i should be writing this down"... weird stuff lol
     
  3. Chug Chug Chug

    Chug Chug Chug Silver Member

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    Personally I'd leave the DPH out of the experiment.
    I have combined DPH and DXM before, about 300mg of both.
    While I have gotten insane closed eye visuals, the body load / physical feeling of the trip was just terrible.
    Not to mention I passed out right away but I think that was by choice.

    While delirium is very interesting, there seems no good way to achieve it without the negative side effects.
    This is just my opinion though, if you feel comfortable with it go ahead just be careful.

    Maybe just DXM and HBWR seeds along with cannabis would be a good experience on it's own.
    DPH could possibly just ruin what could be a good experience, although again just my opinion.

    Although I'd imagine this combination of all three to be straining on the cardiovascular system, and I'm pretty sure DPH in recreational doses can mess with your blood, and combining that with the effects of DXM and LSA might not be a good idea.

    Here is some brief information on DPH toxicity.

    http://users.humboldt.edu/jmmorgan/ben3_s05.htm
    I'd recommend reading the majority of it, really interesting information.
     
  4. mrcowman

    mrcowman

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    Best advice ever. I don't know how it is for others but when you throw even 100mg of DPH in a high dose DXM trip, it gives you a really strong DPH body high (which is not good, it sucks hard) and completely takes the magic out of it. Not to mention if your in a dark room you'll most likely see spiders crawl all over you like I did. Panic attack waiting to happen
     
  5. GeographyGeography

    GeographyGeography Titanium Member

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    I have taken HWBR on their own, and DXM/DPH/cannabis together. Also DXM/cannabis, but never DPH/cannabis because my heart rate scared me too much.

    The HWBR seed are going to give your stomach a hard time obviously. If you are the kind of person who enjoys the 'purging' aspect they seem to induce, then I would avoid the DPH - not only because as an anti-emetic, it will likely prevent you from being able to get anything up, but also because of the cardiovascular risk with high dose DPH/Cannabis. I would also worry about the effects of combined LSA vasoconstriction with the HR lowering/BP raising effects of DPH along with the HR/BP effects of DXM which are pretty variable. How does DXM usually effect you? I would be worried about getting the DPH out-of-breaths syndrome. Cannabis is only going to raise your heart further. I would stagger the doses of each and take your pulse throughout.

    DXM and DPH in concert only need low-doses of each to have synergy that can feel like strong doses of each. I would worry about using too much DPH on top of the HWBR, as their respective effects on the CNS are hard to predict, even if you weren't throwing in DXM and Weed on top of it. You know that your risk of heart attack is significantly increased for the several hours after smoking. Combine this with HWBR/DXM and the worrisome effects of DPH on the heart even on it's own in higher doses and I think this cocktail is asking for trouble. At least work up from small doses.

    I posted a 450dxm/450dph experience in the DPH experiences thread if you want to check it.
     
  6. 2079

    2079

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    Getting the stoned feeling from marijuana really helps with dph's negative side effects and in my own experience I had a near reality hallucination on 700mg but on 1425mg of nothing but dph it was extremely confusing and insane amount of itching. I have never mixed dxm with dph as I haven't done dph in months anyways but next time I have dph I'll make sure to get some dxm. Dxm is well known to go great with marijuana my own example is when I was after glowing on a tall bottle of Delsym (888mg) and I ate an edible and smoked a lot of kief the next day and was feeling the dxm stronger than the day before when I peaked.
     
  7. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    I'm not worried about DPH body load or other less pleasant effects. I have a lot of experience with high dose DPH and actually enjoy the body load. I can deal with the other effects and anxiety won't be an issue since it has never been one before, even at extremely high doses.

    I am not worried about the intensity of this combination or anxiety/panic attacks to any degree.

    But I hadn't considered the possibility that the side effects could be compounded, especially the cardiovascular strain. This does worry me a little.

    DXM combined with Morning Glories was not a problem in the past for me. There were no significant side effects at all. And adding Cannabis to this mix does not sound dangerous. The only part that is a possible problem is the DPH.

    I agree with Chug and Mrcowman that this combination would be great without the DPH, but I still want to include the DPH. You can't have a dissociative/psychedelic/deliriant combo without the deliriant. And the DPH serves two purposes since it will potentiate the DXM.

    So I feel a little conflicted. I guess that I'll keep thinking about this before I decide what I'm going to do.

    Thanks for the responses and for pointing out something I hadn't thought of.
     
  8. mrcowman

    mrcowman

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    Well then sir, I bid you good luck and am anxious to hear how this goes. I myself will be dabbing into combo's soon, mine a bit different though. 50mg MXE, 3g Shrooms, and a ton of weed :D.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
  9. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    Are you speaking from experience here? I have always read that DPH increases the heart rate. And from my experience I would say that DPH increases the heart rate but only to a small extent for me. It would be interesting if DPH can cause both tachycardia and brachycardia depending on the individual.

    I think that the site where you got this info from has made a mistake. Maybe. Everything that I have read always says that DPH can cause hypertension, not hypotension. And one time I actually measured my blood pressure towards the end of and a little after a DPH "trip". Both times it was above normal but not dangerously so.
     
  10. GeographyGeography

    GeographyGeography Titanium Member

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    I've read this a number of places, but only when they are talking about large doses. Heres an excerpt

    Antihistamine activity, central nervous system and cardiovascular profiles of histamine H1 antagonists: comparative studies with loratadine, terfenadine and sedating antihistamines
    Hey JA, Del Prado M, Cuss FM, Egan RW, Sherwood J, Lin CC, Kreutner W.
    Source
    Schering-Plough Research Institute, Kenilworth, NJ, USA.
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND:
    Sedation limits the clinical utility of classical H1 antihistamines, while newer antihistamines such as loratadine and terfenadine are non-sedating. However, clinical use of the terfenadine has been associated with rare but severe cardiac arrhythmias, in particular torsades de pointes.
    OBJECTIVE:
    To establish a quantitative experimental model for assessing the sedating and cardiotoxicity potential of non-sedating and sedating antihistamines.
    METHODS:
    Drugs were administered intravenously and the integrated amplitude of the cortical electroencephalogram (EEG) signal was recorded. The threshold dose that depressed EEG activity was compared with the dose required to inhibit by 50% the peripheral bronchospasm elicited by 10 micrograms/kg i.v., of histamine. In separate studies, the electrocardiogram (ECG) and cardiovascular effects of loratadine (30 and 100 mg/kg, i.v.), terfenadine (10 mg/kg, i.v.), promethazine (5 mg/kg, i.v.) and diphenhydramine (20 mg/kg, i.v.) were evaluated.
    RESULTS:
    The sedating antihistamines, diphenhydramine and promethazine, depressed the integrated EEG at doses between 0.6 and 2.0 times their peripheral antihistamine doses. Loratadine had no EEG depressant activity at 100 mg/kg, i.v., a dose more than 170 times its ED50 (0.58 mg/kg, i.v.) against histamine bronchospasm. We were unable to evaluate the EEG effects of terfenadine, because it produced cardiovascular collapse at 10 mg/kg, i.v. Loratadine and promethazine did not produce adverse cardiovascular effects, nor did they alter normal ECG activity. Diphenhydramine produced bradycardia followed by a transient hypertensive phase without affecting the QTc interval. In contrast, terfenadine elicited hypotension, bradycardia and significant arrhythmogenic activity, causing a prolongation of the QTc interval and a torsades de pointes--like ventricular arrhythmia. Pharmacokinetic studies after i.v. administration of loratadine (30 and 100 mg/kg) demonstrated plasma levels of loratadine and its major metabolite descarboethoxyloratadine to be several orders of magnitude greater than levels found in humans at the clinical dose of 10 mg.
    CONCLUSION:
    The CNS depressant effects of H1 antihistamines are promethazine approximately diphenhydramine >> loratadine = placebo. Of the non-sedating antihistamines, loratadine was devoid of adverse cardiovascular effects whereas terfenadine caused a pronounced disruption of the normal ECG, characterized by a torsades de pointes-like effect.
    PMID: 8556569 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    The following toggler user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control
    Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
    The following toggler user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control


    My understanding was that the troublesome aspect of high dose diphenhydramine was the bradycardia combined with the blood pressure rise. The heart is not working as hard when it needs to be working harder? I could be way off
     
  11. GeographyGeography

    GeographyGeography Titanium Member

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    Doublepost: I think you might be right PowerfulMedicine, the tachycardia and low BP is what creates the problem, not bradycardia and high BP.
     
  12. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    I have been trying to figure out exactly whether DPH causes tachycardia or brachycardia. I found a few papers and now I am sure that overdoses of DPH (which would refer to recreational doses) generally cause tachycardia.

    Here is the abstract to a paper that I found that analyzed many cases of DPH poisonings. I have also uploaded the paper to DF.


    This paper never mentions brachycardia or hypotension as a symptom of DPH overdose. And it surprisingly only reports that a total of 10 out of all the cases displayed tachycardia upon admission and only 9 displayed a combination of agitation, hallucinations, and disorientation. It does note that these numbers are probably under representing the occurrence of some symptoms, but in comparison 18 cases were reported as "cardiovascular stable" and 6 as no having symptoms.


    Here is another paper that only mentions tachycardia in the abstract. I don't have access to the whole paper though.



    I haven't been able to find any papers that conclusively shows that recreational doses of DPH cause either hypertension or hypotension. Even that abstract Geography posted is not really conclusive since it uses a ridiculous dose of DPH. It tested 20mg/kg IV DPH. IV will have much stronger effects than oral, but even an oral dose at that level could be deadly in a human. At the very least, it would be a massively toxic overdose. I would have to take a dose of 1800mg of DPH to reach that level.


    And I have found a few papers showing that DPH can actually reverse anaphylactic and other kinds of hypotension. This contrasts with a whole bunch of other less scientific resources that say that DPH can cause decreased blood pressure and hypotension.


    I am leaning toward hypotension and tachycadria now as well, but according to the first abstract in this post a lot of people won't experience any cardiovascular abnormalities.



    And hypotension may be a good thing in this case since DXM is known to be able to cause mild hypertension, so this might cancel out any changes in blood pressure.



    Since LSA containing seeds generally don't have much effect on the heart (as far I know) this makes me feel a lot better about my proposed combo.
     

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  13. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    Geography, I read your DXM/DPH experience report. How much would you say that the DPH was potentiated?

    The one time that I combined a larger amount of DPH with DXM I used 1000mg DXM and then 250mg DPH. This made the DPH feel more like 500mg with respect to body load and delirium (which is still a low dose for me). But it changed the alterations to thought and the visuals of the DPH in a unique way that was more intense. It basically potentiated the DPH but filtered out a lot of the negative effects while making the good effects more interesting.

    I currently plan on using 711mg DXM (a 2nd plateau dose for me) and 400mg DPH (a dose that would normally only cause a slightly drunken feeling with out delirium for me). Do you think that it is safe to guess that the DPH will be potentiated by a factor of 2?
     
  14. GeographyGeography

    GeographyGeography Titanium Member

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    eek! I really couldn't say for your body :\ but I didn't have a tolerance to either and the by the time I hit 400dxm/400dph I was starting to get pretty delusional. Forgetting I was holding stuff, freaking out thinking I have poisoned myself without any real provocation, diverting-as-fuck audio hallucinations of people arguing or shouting your name right outside your door. You're right though- if you hit that good ratio all the bad DPH effects are gone and the good ones hang around and color the DXM wonderfully. Music appreciation (one of the main attractions of DXM/DPH for me) is through the roof. I get good music appreciation effects with both (except past about 2nd plateau with DXM) but in conjunction it's positively beautiful. Honestly, the past couple of years I have been a pussy about hitting 3rd plateau and up after a very unpleasant vomiting experience so I can't comment with much insight about how much the DXM effects are potentiated but the DPH effects most certainly are.

    I tried it again later with just 100mg more DPH and had a rather un-fun ride with all the usual DPH body-anxiety and dysphoria so I couldn't say. I honestly think It was hitting a good euphoric lower plateau with DXM and the added DPH just made it more mind-bending and a bit darker as far as that particular experience goes. I would say be conservative with the DPH, or at least do a dxm/dph test run with some lower doses. I keep reading "only take low doses of each or the potentiation will get you in trouble" since DPH happens to inhibit one of the enzymes that breaks down DXM, but I have no experience with higher combos like you are doing. I generally take 25mg DPH every time I do DXM just because I've had terrible roboitch before, so my perspective isn't clean really. I would err on the side of caution, more for the possibility of dangerously intense delirium than anything else- especially in combination with LSA seeds which can be pretty damn intense on their own. I have no earthly idea how that will turn out but it could be massively awesome....or just really sickening. Sorry if this is a rather generic harm reduction response, since obviously you are an experienced psychonaut.

    also- remember your DXM/DXO ratio rules of thumb. I didn't realize this but I slightly spaced out taking the DXM gelcaps so there was probably more DXM than DXO present during that experience report.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  15. PowerfulMedicine

    PowerfulMedicine Silver Member

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    Thanks for response Geography. I have been thinking about what I plan to do and have decided that I shouldn't second guess myself. Both of the doses for the DXM and DPH are pretty low for me and I am confident in my past experience.

    Even if the DPH is potentiated by a factor of 3, it would only be about as strong as 1200mg of DPH. This sounds like a massive dose but for me this is equivalent to 600mg or 700mg for the average person.

    I plan on beginning the trip within the next few hours. I will report back once it is over.
     
  16. GeographyGeography

    GeographyGeography Titanium Member

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    For god's sake pwrflmdcn, take an ADHD stimulant or something and write that trip report already!
     
  17. Bernard Marx

    Bernard Marx Silver Member

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    combining DXM with LSA could be dangerous considering LSA is a vasoconstictor and DXM can cause hypertension (high blood pressure) i dont think throwing DPH into the mixture is going to be very gentle on your heart. Even though cannabis would eliminate the vasoconstiction of the LSA, the increased heart rate could end up starting some pretty bad paranoia when youre on DXM and DPH.
     
  18. TyVb58

    TyVb58 Newbie

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    Well it seems that the original poster never left a trip report for this quite interesting combination. Since I still have yet to post my first post, and have experience with this kind of combo im gonna write up a nice trip report for my fellow psychonauts.

    Let me start with my drug experience: I am a near daily smoker, most of the common prescriptions, mdma, mda, lsd, psilosycbe mushrooms, nutmeg, DPH, DXM, 25C/I- NBOME, alcohol, kava kava, cocaine, and combinations of the listed.

    The combination in question involved: 750 mg DXM HBR, 1 small bottle of delsym (DXM polistrex), 2.5 grams of psiloscybe cubensis, 250 mg of DPH, 2 canisters of nitrous oxide, and smoked cannabis throughout.

    The plan for this day was to include two bottles of dxm for when I went to the dentist. I was supposed to get nitrous so I wanted to make the most out of it.

    +00:00-Drank the two bottles of generic robotussin around two hours before my appointment. My mom is the one driving me so my intoxication had to be hidden from her.
    +01:30-I am on the way to my appointment and the general floating euphoria is starting to make itself known. Suprisingly my mom and I have a good talk on the drive. I wonder what she would think if I was to come clean about tripping? probably not very pretty, but fun to imagine in my state of mind nonetheless.
    +02:00-02:30 I get to my appointment and am told that I'll have to reschedule. I feel a bit let down but plan to meet up with my friends and make the best out of my currently altered mind.
    +03:00-04:00 this hour is spent picking up a couple grams of shrooms, two canisters of nitrous, a small bottle of delsym, and some DPH in the form of Benadryl.
    +04:00-05:00 I first ingest 250 mg of DPH and the bottle of deslym. At this time I arrive at my friends J house. With us are also E and C. We start blazing and my dxm trip starts to really get started. I put on all my pretty lights music and start meditating for my expectingly intense trip to come. I realize that mostly all my golden experiences were unexpected. This one seems to be as unexpected as it gets and my hopes are held high.
    +05:00-05:45 I have a thirty minute piano lesson so I decide to take my 2.5 grams of shrooms right before attending so I don't start tripping til after. DAMN!!! although playing without letting my piano teacher know I was intoxicated, was challenging, I still enjoyed it very much. The moonlight sonata seemec to flow from my fingers, and the filling of my body with the trance like energy of Beethoven was blissful. During the end of the lesson I can tell the shrooms are taking effect, my vision is getting majorly off focus.
    +05:45-07:00 I return to my friends J house where we continue smoking and all chemicals begin to synergize quite nicely. Although the visuals are greatly lacking, my mind fuck is extremely pronounced. My stare is quite blank and my speech slow and on the verge of slurring. Me, E, and C have to leave J's house so we depart to a different location. Before leaving though I inhale the two canisters of nitrous. The ego dissolution was near instant. the part of the brain that is constantly in think mode seems to halt, and after doing so melts into one consciousness. It seems like a lifetime spent at a stand still. Slowly though I come too with my friends E and C walking back to see what I was up to (I was supposed to leave with them but the nitrous left me immobilized for a good while). My brain stayed slow down for longer than usual from the nitrous, and the walk is spent in deep thought. I try to tell my friends how I feel but my cognitive function is far from optimal. The flashes I get from DPH alone are in full swing, and obviously colored by the other chemicals, but from which chemical I am unsure. The power of the synergy is extremely humbling.
    +07:00-09:00 I get to my friends C house were we continue to blaze and I start to slowly regain my sober mindset. I come to the realization that although the trip failed to produce strong epiphanies, which I tend to work for, it was still a worthwhile trip. I contemplate the need for the occasional experience that humbles the individual with raw power. As my mind starts working regular I have strong appreciation for everything around me. Just being able to chain sentences together brought strong appreciation. I enter my beloved afterglow introspection I get from dxm, its obviously different and a lot more pushy than normal. Its pushiness allows me to come to many needed realizations.
    +09:00-14:00 The rest of the night is spent contemplating my life and my need to overcome my habit of being lazy and a procrastinator. The trip subtly changes from a trip to an afterglow and I am eventually able to fall asleep.

    I wake up the next day feeling mentally drained but still in an exceptionally good mood.
    I apologize if the report wasn't the best, it was my first one. But I have a handful of unknown combinations that I'd love to share with my fellow psychonauts, so practice makes perfect :)