Dose - doses for LSA/LSD

Discussion in 'LSD' started by Sasha Gulag, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. Sasha Gulag

    Sasha Gulag Newbie

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    what are the doses for LSA and LSD. i know LSD doses in the low micrograms, is LSA similar?


    One time I ate about 100 crushed up MG seeds boiled in water . this was a quickie attempt at an LSA trip with no effects but a sore tummy.


    is there a way to get pure, crystalline LSA from MG seeds. I want to know. most extractions say the end product is a LSA containing gunk.


    what is the differece in effect from LSA and LSD. is it so substantial that its not worth it to try to extract and take LSA?


    [Moved by KT]Edited by: Kemikaru_Tenshu
     
  2. Pinkavvy

    Pinkavvy Platinum Member & Advisor

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    if you extract down to pure lsa crystaline forum, you will not be disapointed. lol

    a lot of whats sold as "lsd" is really just lsa, so lsa won't disapoint many people. it's much more mellow than LSD, which some people even prefer.

    a "hit" of lsd is 100micrograms (in crystal form)

    i'm not sure what the doses are exactly for lsa. (don't remember off the top of my dead, and too lazy to look on erowid or someplace) however it's about about 400 morning glory seeds has always been ok for me, back in the day. i recomend Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds, where you would only need 4-8 of those seeds per trip. (about 3 seeds per "hit" of lsa)
     
  3. Sasha Gulag

    Sasha Gulag Newbie

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    so, are they any acidbase alkaloid-from-palnt extractions that go all the way to crystal form..most of the ones ive read end up with something called "LSA gunk", or stop at an ethanolic solution of LSA.
     
  4. HippieD9

    HippieD9 Gold Member

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    Indications and Dosage

    (LSA (ergine) is 1/10th as Potent as LSD-25 by weight):

    Threshold: 0.2 mg
    Common: 0.5- 1.5 mg
    Strong: 1.5 - 4.0 mg
    Heavy: 4.0 mg
    Do Not Dose: More Than 4.0mg

    Onset: 2 Hours or so to peak.
    Duration : 10 - 14 hours
    Normal After Effects : up to 24 hours

    One morning glory (I. violacea) seed has about 0.01mg LSA.
    One hawaiian baby woodrose (Hawaiian Baby Woodrose) seed has about 0.25mg LSA

    TECHNICAL EXTRACTION PROCESS

    EXTRACTION:

    The method I use is a general one - I copied it from one used by some scientists to extract mescaline from peyote, but I have since seen close variations used on many plants. This procedure is followed, whenever a plant is studied for its alkaloids. A few ingredients and bits of equipment are necessary. I am a chemist, and have my own chemistry set. I have considered manufacture, but I find that there are enough interesting things to do just extracting natural compounds, which is much easier, indeed, possible in the home.

    You will need:

    A few flasks, glass containers, etc. of suitable sizes, depending on how large a volume you are playing with. A separating funnel is almost essential -this could be tricky to get without a little effort. If you don't know, it is an inverted conical flask with a hole at the top to pour stuff in , and a tap at the bottom to let the stuff out accurately . It is used for separating immiscible layers. A vacuum filtration apparatus would be very useful; I did have a bodgy one rigged up myself, but it was always difficult to use. Some kind of still, though, is pretty important to have, although conceivably for a once off you could get by without it, if you don't mind breathing in a lot of solvent. As far as still goes it is to recover solvent, and leave goodness as a residue at the bottom. I use a bit of quickfit I nicked: a round bottom flask, short column, thermometer on top, and a small condenser... takes for ever, but don't expect to follow this procedure in anything under a day. Other bits and pieces: A filtre of some sort is a necessity; preferably a good one, with a vacuum pump if you are filtring gluggy stuff (cactus is the worst, sticky goo, e.g., other things like seeds and bark are better).

    People have been known to use such devices as coffee filtres, t-shirts, tins with holes in the bottom (as a filtre press) and so on. Whatever you can scrounge. A lab buchner funnel, sidearm flask, and venturi pump are ideal. All this stuff is standard in any chemical lab, regardless of discipline. (cont'd in part ii) CTION part ii: Chemicals necessary: The paydirt (obviously) Some solvents: methanol (lots), and a non polar solvent. Some people use ether - this is dangerous and doesn't dissolve everything. Your best bet is probably something chlorinated - I use dichloromethane, although chloroform will do (don't breath too much - it is fun at first, but ends up making you feel ill). Drycleaning fluid... petrol.... I don't know what you have access to.

    Dichloromethane is good because it is non-toxic, volatile, and a good solvent. It has a major drawback: separation is often very difficult once you have placed your gluggy plant muck in there. The shot is to use large quantities of everything, and be patient. You will also need an acid (Hydrogen chloride is good) and a base/alkali (Sodium hydroxide is good - that way, if you stuff up, you end up synthesizing salt instead of something nasty.) Also useful: acid/base indicator paper, boiling chips (porcelain grains) and activated charcoal - see local chemist.

    The idea is this: Most fun compounds (the only exception is maybe THC, and alcohol if you count that) are basic - they contain nitrogen. So: in general, if you react them with hydrochloric acid, the form a water soluble chloride. If you react them with dilute base in the aqueous phase, they go back to being a base, which is insoluble in water, but soluble in organic non-polar solvents (like CH2Cl2). So, the theory is, that only a base will go from water to solvent and back to water etc. when changed from acidic to basic and back to acidic. This gives you a way of removing all the other crap which is not alkaloid from a sample. That is the theory. When I do this, if I can get down to some brown or green sludge that I can throw down or smoke, I am happy with a good days work. Ideally, you should end up with lovely white crystals, but I think that would require a lot of time and effort, and indeed a considerable loss of product in the process.

    Procedure:

    Get your stuff. Dry it as much as possible - this makes life easier later on. You will never get all the water out, but too bad. Chop it up as fine as possible: a blender comes in handy. You may wish to chop then dry. A word of caution : try to avoid exposing your stuff to excessive heat. I dry in low heat oven. Heat and air destroy good compounds from upwards of 100 degs C. All this bit will depend on exactly what you are extracting. Once it is finely divided - powdered if possible, put it in a big container, and cover it with methanol. Alternatives to methanol here are ethanol (not as good) and acetone (good solvent - rips the crap out of anything, but is more reactive - can react with your actives). Now, depending on what your stuff is, you have to let the methanol have time to remove it all. This is best done by leaving in a quiet warm place for a few days, even up to a week, and shaking it occasionally so it is mixed. Some papers recommend solvent extraction (soxhlet apparatus) and refluxing at the boiling point of the methanol (80 degs or so - I can't remember). I usually just rely on time to get the good stuff out. When you are ready (early in the morning), filtre the muck, to give you methanol+dissolved brown gunk, and a residue soaked with methanol. The residue still contains a lot of good stuff, so soak again for an hour, and repeat, and do a third time if you are feeling generous (3 is the magic number in extraction work).

    When you are done, there is another thing you can do finally, if desired: depending on what your stuff is, mix it up with dilute hydrochloric acid, 1M is appropriate. let stand for an hour, then filtre (this may be very difficult) That will get the last of the alkaloids out of the substrate. (continued in part iii) EXTRACTION part iii You now have a methanol-plant stuff mixture, and a dilute HCL-plant stuff mixture, if you bothered to do that part. Evaporate the methanol, to leave a small amount of goo. This will contain water, a bit of methanol, and all kinds of resins and muck, and if you are lucky, the alkaloids. If a very quick and crude extraction was all that was desired, then after stripping the last of the methanol with vacuum if possible, this residue could be smoked eaten or whathaveyou. I leave that to your discretion.

    However, if a cleaner product is desired, the double layer extraction will need to be performed. Combine the evaporated methanol gunge with the hydrochloric acid filtrate if you have any. If you don't then mix the methanol stuff with an excess of dilute (1M) HCl. Feel free to filtre again at this point. Anything of marginal solubility here is no good to you. Get the stuff as clean as possible. Boiling with activated charcoal is another useful trick for removing gunge. Just boil it up, and filter off the charcoal for a cleaner brew. You should now have an acid aqueous solution of alkaloids and water solubles from the plant. Take your acidic solution, and bassify. This is done by mixing in dilute sodium hydroxide (I use up to 5M to save on total volume. Be careful with conc NaOH - apart from eating skin, it eats alkaloids) As you mix in the NaOH, you will see swirls of white precipitate form and redissolve. Continue until the white swirls stay, and until the solution is quite cloudy. Indicator paper is necessary to see that the solution is basic.

    If you can't get indicator paper, you can make an indicator by boiling up some purple flowers. The dyes in most flowers go bright red in acid, and green in strong alkali. Just a drop of dye and a drop of mixture should tell you what is acid or base.

    The white precipitate is the alkaloids. The more the better. Next, add equal volume of non-polar solvent (dichloromethane) to the mix. Place in separating funnel, and shake. Separate. This may be very difficult or slow. Adding more solvent, more basic water, etc. may help. Adding lots of salt to the water layer will help break an emulsion. Ideally you want it do this step 3 times - to extract as much as possible from the water layer into the organic. I find this part very difficult, and you have to accept that you will lose quite a lot of material here. It is, however probably easier with some plants that others: cactus is very difficult, barks and seeds would be easier. Use plenty of salt, and agitate to separate. When you have finished extraction, chuck the basic water layer. The solvent layer is kept, and can be backwashed with salty water for a cleaner mixture.

    The solvent can now be dried, (using salt or some dry powder, the filtred) (I don't usually bother with this - the old hairdryer at the end can remove some last solvent and water) then strip the solvent in a vacuum to get your final product - some kind of syrup could be expected. This is super concentrated, but may only be half the strength of the original. e.g. put in enough for 10 doses of morning glory seeds, get back 5 doses or more of concentrated alkaloids. If it is desired to take the process still further, you can do the obvious thing - mix your solvent layer with dilute acid again and extract back into water. Acid layer could be evaporated under vacuum to give salts of alkaloids. Alternatively, if the organic layer were scrupulously dry, bases could be salted out with some organic acid - a tartrate, oxalate could be formed. I have never bothered with such things - you would need a lot of pure extract to be bothered.

    The acid-base extraction process can be continued as many times as is desired. If a truly pure product is desired, the only way to go from here is chromatography. I have never used this at home, and wouldn't think it was worth the trouble, but there will be papers available on what was used for a particular extraction case.

    Peace,

    D.
     
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  5. jarka

    jarka Gold Member

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    If one morning glory seed is ~0,01mg and 'do not dose more than' is 4.0mg then it means not to dose more than 400 seeds. I think 400 seeds isn't that much? I've heard, that 1 seed = ~1mg but I'm not sure.
     
  6. Alquimista

    Alquimista Newbie

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    There are no real 'minimum or maximum' dosages. Much similar to other psychoactives the dose is very related to the user. You have probably heard about very high doses of LSD used and user being ok after it. With morning glory seeds the bacthes vary quite a bit - on what soil they have been cultivated, what pesticides used etc. Commercial seeds usually have been sprayed with stuff that somehow makes the alkaloids weaker. Best bet would be cultivate a batch on your own and find the right those for yourself. Though I wouldnt advice anything over 250 seeds on the first attempt. Later you can go on insanity mission with 1000+ seeds and so on.
     
  7. panamapaul

    panamapaul Silver Member

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    I used to use Hawaiin baby woodrose seeds. They contain much more lsa than morning glory. At one time you could order these via catalog from some herb shops. I just ground them up and ate them. There was no sickness and I definitely tripped. But the trip (imo) is very different from lsd. It has an almost sedative, spacey, dull feeling to it. Somewhat like pcp. I tried it several times and decided it wasn't to my liking. Every trip was a downer on this stuff. I don't recommend it.
     
  8. PenguinPhreak

    PenguinPhreak Newbie

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    4mg of LSA will certainly not cause any problems, there is a trip
    report on Erowid with a person who took 30g of morning glory and two
    hits of acid due to information from the Anarchist Cookbook. (link)
     
  9. AcmeSewageCo

    AcmeSewageCo Newbie

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    Bah... Hawaiin baby woodrose seeds... Dear christ... I'de like to wonder how you got absolutley no nausea and no sickness... That seems virtually impossible... Not to call you a liar... But I mean... The outer husk of the seed contains cyanide... Bloody hell man... No nausea from a fatal chemical?... Hmmm... As for myself... I love what they did to my head... But my stomach... It was pure torture... Before I discovered the extraction methods of course... I was a "young fool" as many could say... I figured I would start off slow... My friends told me... To scrape off the outer husks of around... 4 or so... So I did... I consumed them... Within minutes I had a horrible pain in my stomach... It was intense/immense... And I felt deathly ill... I vomited for about an hour... Then the nausea totally stopped... I was in total euphoria... With many... MANY light handed visuals... My friends and I ventured to the local mall later... I was in most control over my body... I felt in a party mood... I had virtually NO inhibitions to do anything... And I thought I was doing things that I infact was not... Such as floating... Flying... Melting...The trip was similar to LSD... But I feel that it can not be described as that... I had a mellow feeling... Quite pleasnt... Each time I consumed the seeds... The trip would last longer then acid... Nearly 9 hours at times... Later on in my days with HBWS I still wasnt aware of any extraction... I would consumea "heavy" doseof7 orso seeds... With yet again HORRIBLE nausiating pains... The trip was nearly like LSD once again... Just with each seed increse... It was more and more intense... Finally I discovred extraction methods some months later... The trips were far greater then explination... No nausea was bliss... I felt in total heaven... I still have yet to experiance a "bad trip" from LSA... Unlike many of my LSD experiances... It's a powerful and natural chemical which is by far a plus on my book... This of course doesnt make it safe at high doses... Don't under-estimate it... Especially in its "pure" extracted form... Very fantastic... 8 out of 10 stars on my drug scale [​IMG]...


    Hawaiian Baby Woodrose Doses... Please keep in mind to scape the husks... It's imparative that you do this... Also let them soak for 24 hours and such... Patiance young ones... Know your mind... Know your body... Don't underestimate any chemical that people say is like LSD... But not as powerful... That's ignorance... Powdered extracted pure LSA is virtually LSD... Watch out... Good luck. :D

    Oral H.B. Woodrose Seed Dosages (by # of seeds):

    Threshold: 1 - 4
    Light: 3 - 6
    Common: 5 - 8
    Strong : 7 - 12
    Heavy : 12+
     
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