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    PLEASE HELP

Dose - First time kratom virgin, please advise!!

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by SocialPanther, Nov 30, 2010.

  1. SocialPanther

    SocialPanther Newbie

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    Hello, my pet genie has read all the sticky FAQs and recently decided to order some Kratom online, but still has some unanswered questions, his thought are as follows, quote:

    "
    1. I have read conflicting experiences for Kratom; some love it and some get almost zero effects from it. My only previous opiate experience is 3x 200-250mg of codeine, and had moderate effects. What are the effects of say, a moderate dosage of kratom vs. 250mg of codeine?

    2. Which should I order? :


    - Kratom Golden (Mitragyna speciosa)

    OR

    - Super Enhanced Indo Kratom (claimed doubled strength of Kratom golden)

    - 50% mix between Super Enhanced Indo and Golden Kratom

    OR

    - 20x extract (made from Super Indo Kratom)

    3. I’ve a general approximation of dosage, and plan to swallow using capsules as my method of ingestion. What should my first dosage (herb or extract) be if I want at least a moderate to large effect?

    4. I need to be functional the day after Kratom usage, would I be expected to have any lingering effects?"

    My pet genie thank you in advance.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2010
  2. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    Please take the time to read the Site Rules. Price discussion is prohibited.

    First No one is going to be able to give advice on what kratom to buy. Vendors are notoriously inconsistent from one to the next. If one product is not satisfactory, seeking an alternative vendor or different product may produce better results.

    Clover recommends NOT starting with an extract. If it is a good extract it will be too strong and push up one's tolerance very quickly.

    One thing I can't seem to stress enough to people is that kratom is not an opiate. Let me say it again, Kratom is NOT an opiate. It acts on opiate receptors, but Clover tells me that the experience in many ways is not comparable to an experience with a classical opiate.

    Yes one is quite functional the day after kratom use. Clover has even used it at work, but he is a chronic pain sufferer so it actually makes him more productive by relieving his pain.

    And Clover wants me to urge your genie to try toss and wash or making a tea instead of using capsules. Clover has never tried capsules himself, but he thinks that one might need quite a few capsules and given the anhygroscopic nature of fine kratom powder Clover thinks it would cause some stomach discomfort.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  3. Space Numpty

    Space Numpty Palladium Member

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    Jasim pretty much covers it, although Mungo would say that there is no harm in suggesting some strains. Yes we cant prove that what is being sold as,say, Bali Kratom, is the same from one supplier to another but as Mungo always says, avoid headshops, seek specialised suppliers and the products are generally what they say they are. Cant go into this in detail but Mungo has seen various alkaloid profile studies on various strains so knows what should be what and what he should be receiving.

    So, based on the disclaimer that one may not be actually getting what they are ordering Mungo would suggest Bali or even better, Super Sunda, as the most "opiate like" strains, with something like Red Vein Thai or even better, Thai Maeng Da as a more stimulating experience.

    Other than that i would re-iterate some of Jasims comments. Namely that Kratom is NOT an opiate and that Mungo would also recommend toss'n'wash on a completely empty stomach. Mungo also strongly suggests that the OP avoids extracts/enhanced product and sticks to standard leaf strains as suggested above.

    oh p.s...out of the strains listed in OPs question Mungo would go for the Golden Indo as all the other options are enhanced. More of a sedating strain,very light tan in colour. 5 Grams would be the best starting point although you will probably find your cat has a milder experience its best to err on the side of caution. Most regular kratom users tend to use 10g of standard leaf at a time. I also suggest you pm a moderator and get your price discussion deleted.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  4. Drobium

    Drobium Newbie

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    I have tried most strains of kratom now and finds that he likes super indo the best as it only takes a small dose (2.2-2.5g) for swim to get the nice blissed out, but alert feeling as opposed to say bali strains which I like to take before his day off to relax him that night.

    I started with a very low of 2g 15x extract and found the effects not overwhelming for a first time and maybe a point from which to experiment further.
     
  5. laws0n

    laws0n Silver Member

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    Buy a couple of ounces of Bail and make tea, Bali by far has the most "opiate like" effects and that seems thats what You is looking for.

    Try a half ounce, look up how to make Kratom tea, boil it down so You doesnt have to drink very much. It will be a dark brown coffee color. Drink half of that and after 30min-1h if You desires drink the rest, start out slow.

    The extracts, resins, "super strains", dont live up to their hype, that is a pretty common opinion. You can get a few ounces for around the same price as 5-10grams of the "super duper extract."

    Also I want to point out that the "full spectrum extracts" are sometimes a bunch of combined strains, You wants to stick to bali if he wants opiate like effects, he could order a small amount of another strain too just to see what its like.

    I should take it after a long day of work, dont make any plans, just chill and watch some tv. SWIM perfers to be alone so he can space out, not be disturbed.
     
  6. SocialPanther

    SocialPanther Newbie

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    Thanks for the price edit and opinions, SWIM really appreciates your input.

    One more question: How is kratom in terms of redosing? (I know you can't redose on codeine; further doses are inhibited by original doses) As recommended, I will wash the powder down with some water and I plan to start out with 4g of Super Indo Enhanced, and if I don't get an effect within 30 minutes, I will redose another 4g.

    Also, I don't want to get addicted to Kratom, so he plans to only ingest Kratom at most once per week, probably twice a week. I know addiction potential differs between people, but is 1-2 weeks generally enough to avoid tolerance and addiction? Thanks again!
     
  7. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    Keep in mind that kratom tends to have a longer period needed between doses in order to prevent dependence and tolerance buildup. Going a single day without kratom is definitely not enough. Clover recommends keeping doses no less than 3 days apart to ensure tolerance and dependence do not develop. Many have reported that chronic dosing with only a day between doses only to realize too late that they have become dependent on kratom.
     
  8. Space Numpty

    Space Numpty Palladium Member

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    Bearing in mind your cats wish to avoid tolerance and addiction Mungo will re-iterate that he cant stress enough the importance of avoiding primarily extracts but also enhanced product (which is standard leaf with an extract added to it)

    Using enhanced kratom and extracts is a sure fire recipe for ruining ones tolerance and maximising addiction potential. To minimise these risks use standard leaf!! Twice a week would be fine for standard leaf but Mungo would say that to use enhanced product without addiction/tolerance risk would mean using it only once per week...your cats call tbh
     
  9. topher

    topher Newbie

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    For SWIM, all those fancy titles for "enhanced" or "super enhanced" or any extracts are crap. Altering completely natural leaf ruins it for SWIM. I guess the extraction process destroys specific alkaloids that SWIM's body likes. Plus the chemicals used in for extraction can be dangerous to the body.
    Different strains contain varying amounts in alkaloid content. BUT within a specific strain the alkaloid content varies still. One strain isn't more addictive than another. Body chemistry and the luck of the batch determine addiction potential.

    All I am saying: Don't be fooled by all the different, elaborate 'labels' given to certain types of kratom. Just get the basic stuff and you're good to go.
     
  10. SocialPanther

    SocialPanther Newbie

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    SWIM thanks you again, and he has ordered some Golden Indo Kratom.

    From what he reads on Erowid, Kratom are typically divided into 4 grades:

    1. Enhanced (Extract Added)

    2. Super Grade

    3. Premium Grade

    4. Commerical (Low potency) Grade

    Which category does Golden Indo Kratom fall into? I think premium grade, and he plans to dose 5 grams of the stuff for "common" effects.

    Also one last question: I know manual labourers use Kratom, but can more intellectual work be done under the influence of Kratom? I am a DBA and plans to use Kratom as a coffee substitute in the morning on occasions, is this advisable?
     
  11. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Super, Premium and Commercial mean nothing and should not be taken as an indication of the products quality. Vendors will put lots of different words in front of their products to make them sound different or better than they are, pay no attention to them.
    The best thing to do is to avoid head shops, and do a little research on the Internet to find out who is recommended as a good vendor with good Kratom. Don't take any reviews on a vendors site as being true because its their site and they can post anything they want.

    Enhanced leaf just means they take plain kratom leaf and add extra alkaloids to make it stronger.
    Extracts can be very hit and miss, it all depends on the quality of the leaf used to make it.

    Find a site that sells Kratom alone or Kratom as part of a ethno range. Avoid anyone that sell pills, powders and various legal highs.
    Look for independent reviews on kratom specific forums.

    Golden Indo refers to its light colour and its origin, nothing more.

    Not all Kratom marketed as Golden Indo will be the same.

    It might come from a supplier who has selected the best leaves from the oldest trees, who dried them out in the proper conditions and removed the stems and veins and then stored the leaf/powder in a cool dark place away from direct sunlight and anything that might contaminate it. Then again it might be from someone who collected fallen leaves that could be dirty or rotting, who did not dry them properly and left them sitting in a big pile in a corner until someone ordered them.

    The potency will also depend on the time of year they were harvested.
    One batch might be strong and the next weak, there really is no way You can know until they try them. However finding a reliable vendor who has good quality control measures in place can take away most of those problems.

    When you think about it anyone could buy bulk amounts of Kratom and sell it under any name they want, and plenty do. Just do as much research as possible and You should be fine.

    The Dr. preferred to sit back and relax when he first started using Kratom, it was very euphoric for him, but he was also happy to get up and tidy the house or do some manual work. In low doses Kratom can be stimulating but in higher doses it can be very sedating so it might take some experimentation to find a type and a dose that gives You the effects they desire.
     
  12. topher

    topher Newbie

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    SWIM'll say it again - and reiterate what SWI-ianzombie said: Don't take the 'labels' of the kratom seriously. Stick to basics like Bali, GV Malaysian, RV Borneo, Sumatran, RV Indo[nesian], etc. The adjectives added only glorify their product which, if you buy, will likely give the same effect as the cheaper stuff. SWIM just doesn't want You to waste your money in the future. He has seen it all too often.

    I find doing scholarly endeavors while on kratom is fine as long as the dose is right. Lighter doses are best. Higher doses make the mind foggy and it becomes difficult to concentrate. I takes Bali while studying all the time.. in combination with one of these: Adderall, ginseng, caffeine, or ephedra- to prevent sedation or nodding. Usually Adderall. Taking kratom while working is great for physical labor (when SWIM worked on a ranch in TX for a month), but with school work its a bit different. Lighter doses keep SWIM 'happy' slightly euphoric, but not 'high.' Happy enough to pleasantly go about my work and kills tension pain, stuff like that the Adderall causes. Definately don't make a habit of it.
     
  13. SocialPanther

    SocialPanther Newbie

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    So the package of Kratom came in for SWIM last night, he eyeballed the dosage and took 1/7 of the ounce shipped to him (4g). Nothing except a slight feeling of warmth was felt even after 1.5 hours, so he took an addition 4g. Again, nothing except an increased pulse and feeling of warmth was felt for the next hour or so, so SWIM shrugged it off and took a few big hits of high-quality kush. Then it hit SWIM like a 100mph train.

    What happened to SWIM for the next 5 hours can only be described as immensely intense lost of sanity, but in a good way.

    All times beyond T + 3 hours were approximations; I was quite heavily intoxicated.

    T + 0 (7:00pm) Ingestion of 4G of Indo Kratom (Wash and Toss)

    T + 1.5 slight warmth

    T + 1.5 Ingestion of additional 4G

    T + 2.5 Clocked pulse at 104 bpm, up from 64 bpm baseline. Increased warmth, 4 hits (2 bowls) of high-quality marijuana

    T + ~ 3 Most intense euphoria ever felt, moderate visual and auditory hallucinations of shapes, colours and animal voices, complete relief of all negative thoughts detached from reality

    T + 3.5 depersonalization, racing euphoric thoughts, essentially still drowning in a sea of pleasure, very enjoyable to just melt into SWIM's chair, close SWIM's eyes, and let SWIM's mind wonder

    T + 4 Most intense waves of euphoria had worn off, tried but unable to walk and use the washroom, attempted to put on music and took about a whole 30 minutes to do so

    T + 5 Started playing games, First-Person shooters and RPG games with good graphics felt VERY REAL, complete empathy felt for the video game characters

    T + 6 Minor headache more or less brings SWIM back to reality, and a slight nausea was felt. Laid down on bed, and drank water which eased both the headache and nausea.

    T + ~ 6.5 Fell asleep

    T + ~ 14 Woke up with a pounding headache, and slept through alarms due to feelings of extreme lethargy despite the 7.5 hours of sleep.

    T + 17 Arrived at work late, headache has subsided with the help of 500mg of Ibuprofen, feelings of horrible exhaustion persists.

    All in all, Kratom and weed make an intensely euphoric combination, however the hangover SWIM's experiencing the next day is almost equally strong. Would probably try a lighter dose next time, on a weekend where I don't have to work the next morning.

    SWIM now wonders, why is the onset of Kratom effects at T + ~ 3 hrs for him? He dosed on an empty stomach, and from what he reads effects are supposed to come up within 1 hour.

    Also, any tips on alleviating the terrible hangover would be appreciated.
     
  14. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    If You toss & wash Kratom on an empty stomach it should be felt within 30 minutes, not 3 hours.

    None of the above comments lead the Dr, to believe what You took was Kratom. Even Kratom combined with Weed (if thats what 'kush' is) have never been documented to produce such effects as far as the Dr. knows.
    The Dr. has been taking Kratom for over 6 years now and has never come across an experience report like Swiy's. Espicially on such a small dose of Kratom.

    8 grams of Kratom over a 3 hour period should not really induce a hangover either.
     
  15. SocialPanther

    SocialPanther Newbie

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    After further experimentation with the kratom, I found that it was the marijuana that was laced which caused the intense effects. Not sure what it was laced with, but it was from a new dealer and after comparing it with another batch with another friend, it was definitely not "normal" marijuana in any sense.

    As for the batch of Kratom SWIM ordered, I am quite disappointed. I had to up the dosage to 15g the first few time taking it alone to even pass threshold, where I had avery slight opiate-like buzz that lasted about 30 minutes and then made SWIM extremely lethargic but not in a good I-don't-care-about-the-world kind of way from opiates.

    All in all, SWIM just ordered some Bali powder as to his belief (someone correct SWIM on this?) that Bali powder produces the most euphoria. I will give kratom another try and decide if this herb is something that is worth adding into his substances routine.
     
  16. biomorphic

    biomorphic Newbie

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    ... I thought that only happened in after school specials....