Fly Agaric - Safe?

Discussion in 'Amanita' started by darkglobe, Mar 10, 2007.

  1. darkglobe

    darkglobe Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    336
    Messages:
    757
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    from U.K.
    I've heard a lot of info about Fly Agaric being dangerous, yet there are a wealth of sites out there willing to sell dried A. Muscaria!

    Info?

    ~D
     
  2. darkglobe

    darkglobe Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    336
    Messages:
    757
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    from U.K.
    Anybody?
     
  3. whatswimdo

    whatswimdo Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    91
    Messages:
    104
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    66 y/o from U.K.
    A. Muscaria needs to be FULLY cracker dry! Thats the only way that the Toxins are safe for ingestion! I would reccomend reading up a bit more on them. They can have a very unpleasant side effect from what I have read! But, as long as they are dry, and You know's the proper ingestion and dosage. SWIM see's no problems in trying them.

    I have heard that is more like a sedative with minor hallucinations if any at all.
     
  4. fnord

    fnord Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    2,297
    Messages:
    4,346
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2003
    there trippy,also look into converting the ibotonic acid to muscamol thru heat,either that or its muscalmol to ibotonic acid,dosent take much i think its around 170ish for a few mins but read up on it its been a long time
     
  5. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,936
    Messages:
    7,017
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    That would be: Muscimol and Ibotenic Acid for those needing correct spelling for research.

    Heating converts the Ibotenic Acid into Muscimol - which you would want to take place prior to ingestion to reduce nasty side-effects ranging from gastric pain to convulsions. And beware: Two seemingly identical A. Muscaria growing side by side may have utterly different amounts of active principals. One may be essentialy inert, and the other one capable of turning one into a maniacal Berserker.
     
  6. enquirewithin

    enquirewithin Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    3,605
    Messages:
    5,785
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    from bermuda
    And make sure that you do get Fly Agaric, if you are picking them yourself. Some of the other amanitas are really deadly, like the white Destroying Angel.
     
  7. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,936
    Messages:
    7,017
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    I once found an Amanita Muscaria growing with an Amanita Virosa (Destroying Angel) out of the same bulb. This was in eastern Massachusetts. I warned would-be collectors of this find. Unfortunately I didn't have the needed equipment/reagents to conduct an analysis to determine if any alpha and/or beta-amatoxins etc. had migrated into the muscaria - or ibotenic acid/muscimol into the virosa.
     
  8. enquirewithin

    enquirewithin Gold Member

    Reputation Points:
    3,605
    Messages:
    5,785
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    from bermuda
    ^ That is a scary thought! Amanita poising from Amanita Virona or Virosa sounds as bad as it gets!

    No wonder it was used as a poison in the past.
     
  9. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,936
    Messages:
    7,017
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    There has been some success in using d,l-thioctic acid to stop the progression of the poisoning - which culminates in the internal organs being liquified and excreted. The problem is the only stockpile of this is at the Edgewood Arsenal in Colorado (US ARMY). In case Russian Bear cropdusts America with toadstools.
     
  10. tjb

    tjb Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    68
    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    35 y/o
    in the ponderosa pines of arizona agust of 06 they where seen in abundace along the forrest trails.. thay went unpicked for the hiker is not traditionaly trained in this medicine and is smart enuf to know better(personal choice)
     
  11. darkglobe

    darkglobe Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    336
    Messages:
    757
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    from U.K.
    Seeing as my preference leans slightly away from excreting the liquified remains of my internal organs, I have decided not to go picking my own. Besides, I only know of 3 people who have found A. Muscaria in the United Kingdom.

    I have decided to order powdered, pre-heated and dried Fly Agaric from a UK website which I have bought goods from in the past.

    ALSO, a general thought: is it likely that purchased dired mushroom would ever be contaminated with poisonous variants? I'm over-cautious at the best of times, and this thought has now popped into my head. In fact, I don't think I'm going to be able to remove it, now.
     
  12. darkglobe

    darkglobe Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    336
    Messages:
    757
    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    from U.K.
    Thank you for the link, btw. The whole site has proven itself to be very interesting! :)
     
  13. psyche

    psyche Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    932
    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    30 y/o from finland
    I don't understand why do people make such a huge number out of amanita identification. I'm no expert by no means, but the way I see it there is no look-a-like for fly agaric(A. muscaria) that someone could be mistaken for. It's so distinct in appearance. Maybe it has to do with the fact that picking mushrooms for food isn't very common practise in many places besides Italia and Finland. Something that is very common isn't perceived nearly as dangerous; very few people would be terrified to risk having a traffic accident, but more would be scared of flying.

    Also, I would be extremely skeptical about the toxins jumping from one mushroom to another.

    As for the safety, this is a thing that has been in need for clarification for me too. My hazy idea of their danger is that they are propably no more dangerous that alcohol when taken dried and in moderate doses. Puts some stress to you're liver and brain, but you *should* be fine. Could anyone come up with a bit more precise explanation backed up with some facts.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2007
  14. psyche

    psyche Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    932
    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    30 y/o from finland
    Ok, this night my brother consumed what he said was around 2 caps by eating them. About four hours later I hear strange noises on the other part of house, where my brother retired to suffer his nausea after smoking weed. I go there after I hear rageous and scared swearing. When I go he is trying to stand, falling over and hurting himself. Blood is pouring above his eye and he has pissed himself. He is out of his mind and doesn't understand it's me, let alone what I'm saying to him. I have to restrain him for couple of hours because he regurarly jumps up trying to stumble somewhere and when he hits something and it hurts, he goes berserk like the vikings, I can imagine, and starts acting more furiously. That's now over four hours ago and we still take turns to watch him altough he doesn't move that much anymore, but sometimes seems like he'd start having seizures, but they go away by themselves. Happy that here's no parents at this house, but unfortunately my little brother(13y) had to see this and his friend is also staying over for night and he hasn't given any explanation as of yet.
     
  15. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

    Reputation Points:
    3,376
    Messages:
    3,273
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    from U.S.A.
    ^ Seems like you've answered your own question as to the risks.
     
  16. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

    Reputation Points:
    1,936
    Messages:
    7,017
    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Now if you had collected his urine for a little drink - the second recycling id dsid to be far smoother and better. And the third as well.*

    (I hear Western Civilization crashing all about by feet...)


    * though such is a rare event in said culture, and brave souls and comrades tried this. It proved the hypothesis that drinking the urine of the first person to consume, does indeed pass on the active ingredients, sans ibotenic acid leftovers, providing as strong an experience without the residual toxic effects.
     
  17. psyche

    psyche Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    932
    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    30 y/o from finland
    I know about the urine-thingy and I actually worried that since he wet his pants that muscimol would re-absord, but on a second thought that sounds a bit irrational. Though I understand muscimol is active at fairly low doses, if not even near the activity of lsd. I finally called an ambulance since he woke up and wasn't still able to speak or understand anything, spitting around his room and vomiting twice and screaming regularly as if trying to clear a throat(which seems to have taken a hit during his falling episode).

    Edit: Oh, and the mushrooms where dried in a mushroom drier(yes, there are such things), but I'm not absolutely positive if the temperature was high enough for the conversion of ibotenic acid to muscimol to take place.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2007
  18. kalininin

    kalininin Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    3
    Messages:
    202
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    from belgium
    jeez, how is brother now ? what did he remember ? was he in total hell or somehow in some ecstacy ?
     
  19. psyche

    psyche Palladium Member

    Reputation Points:
    932
    Messages:
    1,218
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2006
    30 y/o from finland
    As was expected, it wore off during the day in the hospital and they returned him the next day. He had some stiches on the corner of eye that bled pretty much, was merely able to speak because of the throat taken hit, no concusion(sp?) altough he hit his head pretty hard on the sement wall. But he was extremely happy that it was over. He doesn't remember much of the night, but as you said, he thought he had arrived hell. What a shock, he thought there was no such thing, but as unbelievable as it feels, it's happening right there. He remembers extremely painful shocks with constant delays between, obviously when he jumped up but had no chance to stay up and then hitting himself randomly. He was terrified because there was nothing he could do, and I could tell it when I first saw him screaming and cursing with very angry/scared tone, as loudly as merely possible. Little did I know how little he knew of the world around him at that moment, I kept trying to talk to him quite some time. At the morning he had some kind of version of this reality, and he thought he had to be fast enough to escape from me to get out of hell. Ambulance drivers tried telling him not to spit constantly, but for no avail. It's still a bit insane, two caps and 10 hours of tripping on the level that you don't know anything about your environment and can't communicate.

    But there were some consequences, as if this wasn't enough of a lesson. The ambulance drivers also asked were the amanitas consumed on purpose, which is a bit absurd question to me because no way anyone would accidentally eat A. Muscaria as an edible shroom. Secondly, it had nothing to do with what they did, so I answered what the hell does it matter. When they asked again before leaving, I admitted that it was purposeful, which my brother also told them in hospital. Well, then he had to take part in some counselling with my mother. They were totally honest and tried to talk sense to the social workers, who were in turn questioning him if he wanted to go on to the college some day, and you say you smoke weed, you never know in what condition your brain will be in couple of years and such bs. They couldn't beleive what they heard when my mother told them that they usually smoke at home and there's no problem with it. She had a little peek on the memo they were writing, and it stated "mom has a positive attitude towards drugs". When it didn't progress anywhere, they stated they are going to inform the police. That was outrageous, as they thought it was confidencial, and they even dared to ask that hopefully you didn't lose trust on us. So, we are under a threat for house search, and for that my brother had to stop his growing business that instant. Though we haven't seen any cops yet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2007
  20. kalininin

    kalininin Silver Member

    Reputation Points:
    3
    Messages:
    202
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
    from belgium
    bwah, what a nasy adventure! brother mol ok -> very good.

    1 person eats 28 grams n nothing happens n your brother takes 2 caps n hes in hell,
    getting a bit worried as to how useful so to speak they are for humans.
    maybe use large quantities, grind em n mix that n then take a dose of that material, thus hopefully eliminating the chance on nothing or on hell.
    hope all goes well!