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    PLEASE HELP

Help reduce the use of SWIM on DF

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Alfa, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    We have discouraged the use of SWIM for 5 or more years now, because its a very weak form of avoiding self incrimination.
    Since early 2010 self incrimination in the drug forums is allowed. Just not in the chemistry forums. Which is a small part of the site.
    New self incrimination rules! (2011)

    The welcome PM, wiki about SWIM and many threads ask members not to use SWIM.

    Using SWIM makes posts hard to read and we frequently get complaints about it. It makes it hard for new users to become accustomed to this site.
    As we want drug information to be accessible to everyone and posts are easy to understand, the use of SWIM conflicts with our mission.

    Still new users think that they need to use SWIM and many new threads are created as such. How can we make members aware that the use of I am not wanted?

    I would like to call on members to make others alert. If you see posts using SWIM, then please make the author aware of this thread. In this way we can reduce the use of SWIM. If you encounter any ancient messages promoting the use of SWIM then please hit the report button so we can delete them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  2. C.D.rose

    C.D.rose Palladium Member Donating Member

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    I would suggest that you recommend that SWIM posts should get a neutral rep comment that explains the situation. People usually take critical rep comments very seriously, even if they are neutral. Depending on how effective this is, you could also "raise the stakes" and recommend one negative star for it.

    I'm pretty sure this would reduce the use of SWIM considerably.
     
  3. PillMan

    PillMan Titanium Member

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    After you click on the "new thread" button and come to the page to make a new thread, there should be a big sign right above the body of the new thread you are making saying "do not use swim".

    Or make it that every time you type in swim into the new thread page it turns red and tells you to change it. Or make it to where it won't let you post the new thread if it has swim in it.

    Orrr....if your new thread has swim in it there could be a sign that pops up as soon as you click on the button to post it saying something along the lines of "if your new post uses the word swim click cancel and change it, if not continue."
     
  4. SmokeTwibz

    SmokeTwibz Titanium Member

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    Use that same 'big sign' or message for when somebody is replying within a thread also.

    A message that says "don't not use SWIM" but worded more appropriately, right below or above the area where you can type when creating new threads and replying within a thread, combined with effective use of a neutral/negative rep comment, would likely discourage the use of SWIM.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  5. baZING

    baZING Newbie

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    Actually, I'd like to use PillMan's idea and change it up a little bit... but it's the same thought.

    Perhaps in the same way the chemistry and drug creation forums have that big stop sign that says "Self-Incrimination or Implication is not allowed...," Maybe ALL forums for the time being should implement that same graphic, albeit with text that says "Self-Incrimination and Implication IS allowed in this forum, but please do not use SWIM." ?

    The other suggestions were a little more thorough with regards to having something pop-up when someone is replying, but I imagine that would be more difficult to work into the server/program than just placing that same image already used in other forums with a different text. Maybe I'm wrong.
     
  6. malbar

    malbar Silver Member

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    I'm fairly new here and wasn't aware that you were trying to stop the use of SWIM, I also wasn't aware that self incrimination was now allowed. I think this should be flagged up in a clearer manner when creating an account and agree with PillMans idea.

    What if you don't want to say 'I took/have taken/am taking/am on (x) drug' though? Is it still acceptable to use something like 'my friends pet' or similar? I think there will be a lot of people that don't want to incriminate themselves, especially with the current website hacking and subsequent release of personal identifiable information culture.
     
  7. baZING

    baZING Newbie

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    ^^ It is still completely acceptable to write creatively, whether it's about a friend of a friend, dreams, etc. Let's face it, though, if you're really concerned about legal implications, you should not be writing about pets. That will never hold up. I would suggest writing something along the lines of hypothetical situations or, as mentioned, writing about dreams or other people who aren't you. IMO pets/animals should be avoided if you are worried about possible legal problems.
     
  8. PillMan

    PillMan Titanium Member

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    Thanks for agreeing with me everyone...lol feels good to have everyone agree with me. I'm just ready to see what alfa has to say.
     
  9. malbar

    malbar Silver Member

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    Oh, I completely agree - I suppose I was playing devils advocate. I think some people will definitely feel more comfortable using my pet etc. than they would be saying 'I'. I'd be very surprised if posts on this site where ever used as evidence in court, the authorities couldn't care less what you've been doing, their concern is to catch you in possession. Telling a policeman/court that you've snorted 50 kilos of coke in your life time is not (at least in the UK) a punishable offence.

    I for one am happy that I'm now allowed to say openly what drugs I have taken/am taking, it's something that I don't hide from people in person so it's not something I don't want to hide on a drug forum.

    @PillMan - no problem! One thing that might be a problem there is the apps that are available on ipad/iphone/android that allow you to view/post on the forum here (forget the name, taptalk or something?). I've never used it before but would that also display the warning? I would imagine it uses a generic post page opposed to the reply feature on the site.
     
  10. AmbitiousStoner

    AmbitiousStoner Silver Member

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    Prior to registering, I was a lurker for about a year; I finally registered in July, 2011, well after the site started to discourage the use of SWIM.

    As I read the OP's post, the first thing I thought was that the initial welcome message should contain this information. However, after reading the welcome message that was DM'd, I see that it already is contained in the letter. I'm not sure if I skimmed past the info when I first received/read it or simply forgot about it, but maybe something as simple as an expanded/bolded text on the issue would help to reinforce the information to new members.

    I also agree with the previous suggestions - having a reminder would help to reinforce the issue. Though, I think I'd use a different sign/symbol or the same symbol with with a different color (i.e. yellow instead of red) simply to differentiate between the two warnings/reminders.
     
  11. kailey_elise

    kailey_elise Gold Member

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    Admissions to drug use have gotten people in trouble with the law on other websites.

    I'll try to find the link, but there's a thread somewhere that has a post from Alfa linking to a number of news articles where people have gotten in trouble regarding their drug use because of what they've posted online.

    I think most of them had to do with either distributing or posting photos of themselves using drugs, though.

    ~Kailey
     
  12. Phungushead

    Phungushead Twisted Depiction Staff Member Administrator

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    Articles on Online Self-Incrimination: Real-World Examples and Why it is Important
    Has anyone ever been prosecuted online for self-incrimination?


    Just as a side note:

    I think a major reason why newbies feel so inclined to use I am because there are a very large amount of old posts which use the term. I know I used to use it myself back in the day. While most of us who are members concentrate mostly on the new posts, keep in mind that guests (who then register and become new members) who find the forum by search engine frequently come across ancient posts.

    If you're ever bored, one thing you can do to help is go through your old posts and edit out any casual use of SWIM. It may not seem like much of an impact, but every little bit helps.
     
  13. CaptainTripps

    CaptainTripps Law & Policy sections Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the above statement is misleading. It gives the impression that it is the forum, not the content that determines what is allowed. Suppose there was a news article that discussed the yield that could be produced by one marijuana plant. In response to that someone posted a rebuttal saying that from their many years of experience growing marijuana the amount suggested by the article was ridiculously high. That they are currently growing pot and when they harvest in two weeks they expect to get far less than the amount suggested by the article. I doubt it would be a defense to a red star that this was OK, simply because it was not posted in the chemistry section. Which brings up another point, that it is not just the "chemistry section" that warns about self incrimination, but all drug production forums.

    There is a similar rule that also is confusing.

    Planning of illegal activity is not allowed.

    "This includes discussion of smuggling and selling illegal substances."


    One would assume from the above that what are banned are "how to" articles. Like what is the best place to put a hidden compartment in your car, for example. But does it also ban someone admitting that they are a drug dealer? What if someone stated a thread on "do drug dealers ever feel guilty about selling drugs" Then someone responded saying that they are a drug dealer and feel no responsibility for the poor choices made by their customers. I would assume from what I have seen and read during my 2 years on this forum, that admitting to current drug dealing would be self incrimination. I also suppose you could also stretch things by saying that by admitting to being current drug dealer, that you are implicitly suggesting that you have drugs for sale, possibly on the forum. My point is that I have always thought that even after the relaxation of the self incrimination rules, that admitting to current dealing activity was still a big no no, and considered to be self incrimination. Even if no advice was given on how to do it.

    I think when looking at reducing or eliminating the use of swim that it is important to be very clear on what kind of statements are "self incriminating". I know that to some experienced members that my post may seem a little silly and maybe I am splitting hairs, but then again most experienced members are not using swim. That being the case what we are really looking at is the education of newer members or members who do not frequent the forum often. It should be kept in mind that while the rules may seem prefectly clear to those who wrote them, that they may be less clear to someone who has read them for the first time. Maybe even to some that have read them many times.

    I know that Alfa is directing this question to the more experienced members, asking for their advice, I just think it is important that the reduction in "swim" does not lead to an increase in self incrimination among the less experienced members.

    As for the above suggestions, I like the idea of "swim" showing in red with a hyperlink to an explanation of why it should not be used. That way the poster can not really avoid seeing it and the members that don't use it don't have to constantly be reminded of it with a banner or something.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  14. trdofbeingtrd

    trdofbeingtrd Palladium Member

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    I don't agree with you, in fact............just messing around man, I agree with you. The ideas are really good one's. I think if it's not to much of a hassle or if it don't cost to much to implement it, the word turning red AND not being able to post if the word I am all in caps. The red idea can work for sure, with maybe a small tone or x like sound. The not able to post if using swim I think would only work if it's in all caps because some people do type swim like they went for a swim.

    Sorry, had to, but seriously, very nice ideas.
     
  15. BitterSweet

    BitterSweet Titanium Member

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    Why not encourage users to put this message in their signature. I was about to do it; I suppose a small, personal contribution to the effort. It would also be good to get a link in the signature to the page discussing SWIM - haven't ever made a signature for myself yet but can't imagine that isn't hard for one to do.

    EDIT: just realized that even typing SWIM provides you a link to the page.

    I am trying to think of a creative signature that will discourage SWIM while giving an example of what could be used. I'll have to ponder over and see if anything springs to mind; this could even start a new trend! Maybe put "I don't SWIM any more because my purple cat is more interesting". I am just talk-typing to myself at this point and am getting side tracked about how to jump on the bandwagon with a wicked cool signature. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem people!

    Captaintripps has pretty much summed up what I have been thinking about the topic of SWIM and self-incrimination. Only up until very recently have I been alerted as to the changing preferences, whereas prior to that, everyone was doing it and it seemed that no one was trying to change it. So to say that 5 years this has been an effort is astonishing.

    I was always confused with the self-incrimination idea. At the individual level, some understanding, but at the site level, I would like more understanding; why is it so significant to have this dealt with? Is there any specific event causing this urgency for fast results of eliminating the use of SWIM (I would call it an urgent event since this has been apparently an issue for 5 years).

    I have no legal matters pressing in my life, and in terms of self incriminating, if someone I know were to ever figure out that I belong to this username, the use of I am pretty much useless anyway, including any creative ways to talk. I only used SWIM and am now using my purple cat for the purpose of the website, but I am not sure how the website is affected on a whole. What if some people are fine disclosing their drug use? Maybe even so fine that everyone chooses to use "I" (this is a hypothetical example), what would the repercussions be?

    At this point, I think it is best to just use hypothetical situations because talking about flying elephants and purple cats are as obvious as basically claiming "it wasn't me" in the form of SWIM. How about the use of you? I hate when I am replying and I don't know how to reply in terms of using you, or if the person made the post using "I" even though it would have been wiser or in accordance with the rules to do otherwise; what are the respondents to do?

    Perhaps just making it clear that the situation is hypothetical is enough. The more I think about it, the more realistic this is, and much easier to write posts under this pretence. Why not incorporate some sort of disclaimer that says "unless otherwise stated, all situations are hypothetical in nature".
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  16. baZING

    baZING Newbie

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    Bittersweet, I think the problem with that is that not everyone really pays attention to signatures. Furthermore, it doesn't really do much to "prevent" the use of SWIM, though it may help reduce it a little. Unless EVERYONE ON DF had that in their signature, the chances of a SWIM-perpetrator seeing the comparatively few amount of signatures with such reminder are pretty low. In addition, if they make a new thread, there'd be no signatures to see yet to remind them not to use SWIM.

    Also, frankly, I want to be able to put what I choose in my signature and I'm probably not the only one who feels that way. Many of us already choose to put things in there to help the site in some small way (I have a link to donations in mine), but otherwise it's a pretty personal thing and I think it would be better to keep it like that.
     
  17. derpahderp

    derpahderp Silver Member

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    Agreed. If anything the most proactive approach is for word to be splashed in each post. Gentle reminders help to curb behaviors --- punishment would be a turn off but idk-- brief outline with more appropriate decriptions or lists to use. How to rename the fictional character you are describing.
     
  18. brokenangel

    brokenangel Titanium Member

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    "Just say no" to SW*M! Make November SW*M awareness month!! =P

    Just kidding everyone, great idea's! Not allowing it all together^ is a great idea, as in displaying an error message when one attempts to post a thread (such as the WIKI links, error's and whatnot).

    I am relatively new here, but I did "mind" the SW*M is frowned upon welcome PM. However, honestly .... as I looked & poked around the site I saw that it was frequently used and thought - "Hey, I guess it isn't so bad - it's everywhere." Yet, I still was weary of using it and hesitated to do so.....

    BitterSweet..... I brought the same idea up in chat to Mr. Alfa earlier about use of "SW*M" signature's, I guess it/we could play a small part, eh?! :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  19. CaptainTripps

    CaptainTripps Law & Policy sections Platinum Member & Advisor

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    NEW DRUGS FORUM MEMBERS:
    Please do not use SWIM! The Chemistry forum is the only forum in which "self incrimination" is against the rules.


    Read more: https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197306#ixzz2AHjC6L7B

    Now I am really confused. If this statement is taken literally, it means that you can admit to making meth, growing pot and selling tons of cocaine to school kids and it is completely OK, just so long you you did not do it in the chemistry forum. Is that because the cops can only use admissions against you if they are in the chemistry forum. Is this a federal law? Does it apply in all states? What about the rest of the world?

    Sorry if I got a little snide, I just don't see where it matters where you post. It seems that what matters is what you say. Now I realize that it might take a little creativity to self incriminate in some of the other forums without going off topic, but I will bet you I could if I tried.

    I thought the idea was that it was not OK to admit to drug manufacture anywhere on DF.

    I am going to smoke some medicine and go to bed. I have a headache. Please note I said "I", not "swim".
     
  20. brokenangel

    brokenangel Titanium Member

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    AB-solutely not. Edited for reason of misunderstanding/misinterpretation of the rules. Source discussion, pricing, selling, dealing etc.. all of the above is against the rules!!!!!!!!!