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Side effects - Horrible reaction from kratom. Can it precipitate opiate withdrawal?

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by EasyCheese, Mar 12, 2010.

  1. EasyCheese

    EasyCheese Silver Member

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    Not sure if this belongs here or in Opiate Addiction. Moderator - please move if need-be. Thanks...

    History: My neighbor has enjoyed various strains of Kratom many times in the past. He was using no opiates whatsoever during these pleasant times. He would use 10-14g of Bali and feel very nice with no side effects whatsoever.

    Horrible reaction: This happened on two occasions with two different batches from two different vendors. At the tail-end of an opiate taper my neighbor decided to dose very lightly (3grams Bali) hopeing to alleviate his opiate w/d's. Within 2 hours he entered a state of extreme discomfort. Explosive diarhea for about 8 hours as well as vomitting, cold chills/sweats, and a very disoriented feeling.

    The first time this happened he tought it was a fluke. He ceased using any Kratom and finished his opiate taper as planned.

    This exact same series of events happened at the tail-end of another opiate taper. Same amount- 3 grams Bali from a different vendor.

    It seems as if the Kratom triggered a precipitated opiate withdrawal. I've researched this at length and have not found a single incident of Kratom causing a precip. w/d. In fact I've read that many folks have taken both opiates and Kratom at the same time with no ill effects.

    Had my neighbor not enjoyed far higher amounts of Kratom previously I would call "Allergic reaction" and if the Kratom is question was from the same batch from the same vendor I would call "contaminated Kratom" but neither apply. Needless to say my neighbor is going to refrain from using the Bali he has in the cupboard. He is in his second day of opiate withdrawals and would much rather suffer than take a chance with a third round of this terrible reaction. The second time he *almost* wnt to the emergency room as he was sure he was going to dehydrate/pass out/die.

    Has anyone heard of or experienced such a thing or is my neighbor the only guy on the planet in which Kratom sets off precipitated opiate withdrawals?

    Thanks for reading and both my neighbor and myself will look forward to anything you folks can offer.

    Be well!

    EC
     
  2. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Horrible reaction/Precipitated w/d's

    Is it possible that You was just going into Opiate Withdrawal and the Kratom was such a low dose that it did not help with the Withdrawal at all?
     
  3. EasyCheese

    EasyCheese Silver Member

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    Re: Horrible reaction/Precipitated w/d's

    He was in mild opiate withdrawals at the time. He was hoping that the Kratom might offer him some comfort.

    The sickness came on like a sledge-hammer. Feeling MILD opiate withdrawals upon taking the Kratom. 2 hours later, with no build-up in intensity of withdrawals, and WHAM! VERY VERY sick.

    After about 8 hours of this horrible sickness he was returned to his previous state of mild opiate withdrawals.

    Great idea but unfortunately not the case. Thanks for posting- my neighbor and I both appreciate it!

    EC
     
  4. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    I have used kratom in the past to alleviate some symptoms of a tramadol withdrawal. It does work to alleviate some symptoms of an opiate withdrawal, but it's not greatly effective. The experience related here could be due to any number of factors. This is very strange. Has anyone else experienced anything remotely like this?
     
  5. EasyCheese

    EasyCheese Silver Member

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    Just today, in fact, I read a post on another forum where someone mentioned having precipitated w/ds due to very old/stake Kratom. That was not the case in either instance for my neighbor.

    Unfortunately I can't post on that other forum as it is by invitation only. Bummer.

    The most curious thing about both incidencts of this horrible reaction is that Kratom was enjoyed on many revious occasions, the Kratom was from different batches/vendors, and was enojoyed by others and therefore was not tainted or otherwise "bad" in any way. It is by elimination of many factors that the conclusion appears to be precipitated withdrawals.

    Thanks for your input and for keeping this post on page #1. This is really puzzling and both my neighbor and myself would really like to find the answer if for no other reason but to satisfy our very strong curiosity.

    Be well!

    EC
     
  6. Oxymorphone

    Oxymorphone Palladium Member

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    I think the symptoms listed by your neighbor are very similar to one of his first kratom experiences. Except in SWIM's case it was in a larger than usual dose instead of the opposite as your neighbor did. I took (insert quantity here) (ie. he didn't measure, but it was nothing insane) at about 6:45am and by 7:30am he began sweating profusely, and soon started throwing up at work accompanied by all the other symptoms you've listed. It was so bad for him, in fact, that he could barely stand up, and upon doing so he felt consciousness leaving him. His vision was very blurred and he couldn't focus his eyes on anything. He managed to somehow make his way to his bosses office and told his boss he must have some kind of food poisoning or something and got to go home.

    I was VERY surprised by the severity of this sickness. I takes what appear to be similar amounts nowadays and doesn't get this reaction, so is in the dark as to why this happened to him then. It's only a guess that he took too much, because he can't think of any other reason. Even though, in the bottom of a cup, it didn't look like an abnormal amount.

    The main differences here would be that I wasn't tapering off of opiates and he took what he assumes was a LARGER dose, not a smaller than usual one. Can't offer any insight as to why that would happen with a tiny dose like the one in question. Just replying to say it may have nothing to do with the opiate taper at all, again that's only a guess because the symptoms of the sickness sounded so similar to what SWIM experienced with kratom.

    The sickness was the worst sickness he's ever experienced (at least that he can still recall), almost bad enough to scare him away from kratom forever. Thankfully the case is not so =)
     
  7. younggun38

    younggun38 Newbie

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    Hey,I do not know much about kratom,but I know plenty about Opioids.I did not see what your neighbor was tapering off of,as all opiates are not made equally.I am very interested in this thread because I was thinking about trying kratom to try and help taper off Methadone.I was just wondering if your friend was using a synthetic type opioid such as Methadone,Subutex,etc.. because these opioids bind a whole lot tighter to the Opioid Receptors,thus making it harder for other Mu Opioid Agonists to attach to the Receptor.From what little research I have done on kratom that is essentially the main way it helps alleviate withdrawal and help pain,but it has other properties as well.An example of what I am talking about would be trying to take Stadol(which is a partial Opioid Agonist/Antagonist meaning it has Naloxone or Naltrexone)with a high dose of a pure Agonist such as Morphine.The Stadol alone would work as an Agonist if taken as supposed to,but if someone were to think they may get a buzz from adding the Stadol to their Morphine the Naloxone/Naltrexone would precipitate withdrawal and make someone very sick.I am on a high dose of Methadone and no Dr. will put me on Suboxone for that reason.The Dr.'s say the Suboxone would precipitate withdrawal because the Methadone binds so tightly to the opioid receptor that it would basically leave no room for the Suboxone to attach and and the Naloxone would precipitate withdrawal symptoms.Subutex and Suboxone also binds very tightly to the opioid receptor.I am sure everyone already knows what I wrote,but I am interested in figuring this out.Not only for the neighbor,but because I do not want to end up in the same situation.So I would like to know what the neighbor was tapering off of if at all possible.If it was Methadone or Subutex that might explain why the kratom could not attach to the Opioid Receptor.I do not know if kratom has any Antagonistic properties,but I will research and try and find out.This is just a theory that probably is not the reason,but it is worth further investigating.Either way kratom sounds like a great herbal remedy for many things.
     
  8. fiveleggedrat

    fiveleggedrat Palladium Member

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    Various types of kratom have anecdotally been shown to possibly possess antagonists, no?

    Think about it like this: Cannabis randomly starts making new cannabinoids all the time due to plant evolution stuff(OBVIOUSLY NOT LITERAL!). Why would kratom not do the same to some degree?

    The particular kratom used might've had a different blend or concentration of alkaloids. Some could even be partial agonists/antagonists.
     
  9. younggun38

    younggun38 Newbie

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    "you can always count on a bunch of drug addicts to argue over grapefruit juice"

    Grapefruit juice!lol I used to drink it regularly.If the kratom does have antagonist properties,that could explain why the reaction happened.It actually makes sense that the lower dose of kratom used could have produced the antagonist effect without the dose being strong enough to bind to the Opioid Receptor,thus not producing the agonist effect that it does with most people who take larger doses or take it without using opiates at the same time.

    I know it sounds kind of backwards,but a larger dose may actually lessen the precipitation into withdrawal because the agonist effects may be greater than the antagonist effect.

    I understand that after the experience the neighbor had with the kratom he would probably be too terrified to try it again during the taper.I know I would be and I personally would not recommend it,because all this antagonist talk is just a guess!

    I would like to know the drug that was being tapered.If it was Methadone or another similar synthetic opioid I definitely don't want to confirm my suspicion by going through the same thing.Anyway this has gave me something to research.I hate that it came at the expense of someone suffering from withdrawal as I would not wish that on anyone.
     
  10. EasyCheese

    EasyCheese Silver Member

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    Sorry about the delay in responding- busy time of year...

    My neighbor was tapering off of poppy pods both times the reaction occurred.

    The first time he also had a wee bit of hydrocodone in his system. The second was just pods. At the time he was using about 4g/day and was on his way down.



    Be well!

    EC
     
  11. punkboi

    punkboi Silver Member

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    I hate replying to very old threads but I had a very similar experience last night and this morning. I've been on a fast taper at 1mg per 2 days and am down to 13mg from last years start of the taper @ 140mg of Methadone (MMT for over 7 years for a 3 year Oxycontin addiction). I have been feeling pretty bad from the taper and then an emergency came up. There was a sudden death in the family and it happened over the weekend where I could not get a take home for a day so I missed my dose one day. The afternoon of the day I missed my dose is when the Withdrawals came on VERY strong. I had some White Vein Sumatran Kratom (if that strain is relevant to my situation) that I used to help ease the WD. I used roughly 3 grams in a cup of coffee and it worked surprisingly well. But, after about 3 hours the Withdrawals came back twice as bad. The really bad kind of puking, diarrhea, cold sweats and most horrible altering of smell and taste that makes you want to puke more. So, we got back from the 500 mile drive straight to the clinic to get my dose. After 5 hours I started feeling a little better and I thought things would be good. Yesterday was the day following my return to very very mild Withdrawals after this horrible weekend and I thought maybe I would have some more Kratom to go to bed on. I used about 5 grams this time and things seemed good until an hour or 2 passed. All of the sudden I got uber cramps, gas pains and then the diarrhea and puking came back. This lasted for hours and hours until I got back to the clinic for my dose this morning. Everything went away after about 3 hours except for the most minor Withdrawals from the taper such as runny nose, aches and fatigue. I still can't keep much down and cannot drink too much fluid or I have to run back to the toilette. So, is it possible it does contain antagonistic properties? I have used other strains and types and never had these effects. I am still feeling bad as well as having a racing heart rate that is really worrying me. I think I'm going to take some more Catapres now. This has been such hell. Hopefully someone will have something to add. Sorry if I left out any detail you may need. I just feel so damned bad.
     
  12. AbbaZabba

    AbbaZabba Silver Member

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    I can't stress enough about watching out for bad Kratom products. They can call it what they want and label it with all sorts of names but shit is shit. There has been a lot of chemically sprayed filler herbs being passed off as Kratom since the banning of the K2, Spice, etc. These companies jumped on the band wagon to make a dollar and they are now flooding the market. I have years and years of experience with Kratom and recently found a good deal on some from a different source It was in a very fancy package unlike the Kratom I usually get I was sick as ball from this garbage for days. I had the shakes puking diarrhea pouring sweat it was a joke. I took what I had left to a friend who works in a lab and had him analyze it to see if the active alkaloids that are normally found in Kratom were present and they weren't. It was research chemicals and this pisses me off because this is how Kratom is going to end up getting banned. Someone is going to have a serious adverse effect to one of these bullshit Kratom products and they are going to end up in the ER and they will tell the doctor they had Kratom then the doctor has to report it to poison control and after the media gets ahold of it we can kiss it good bye.
     
  13. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Please scan and post a copy of the lab report, showing the Research Chemical that was detected along with any other information including the products name. Not only will it be a good addition to this forum but it can be shared with the wider kratom community.