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Addiction - how long should one wait after doing heroin to take suboxone

Discussion in 'Heroin' started by mullet0224, Feb 18, 2009.

  1. mullet0224

    mullet0224 Silver Member

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    29 y/o Male from U.S.A.
    SWIM has developed a small habit of smoking black tar

    and he got a job and he starts tomorrow

    he bought some suboxone off a friend that he wants to take to ease the withdrawals enough to get through work thursday and friday, since he has weekends off

    but he heard that if you take suboxone too soon after doing H it will make you start withdrawing instead of easing the withdrawal
    so how long should SWIM wait to take the suboxone so that it relieves the symptoms instead of causing them to get worse?

    also, SWIM has some vicodin. if he takes just a few vicodin, it tends to help him sleep for a few hours during withdrawal. will that make the withdrawals last longer since its an opiate?
     
  2. rhudson

    rhudson Newbie

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    24 hours is safe. If SWIY's habit is small, less may be ok too, but he does NOT want to take the suboxone when SWIY still has the Heroin his system. Precipitated w/d's SUCK.

    Edit: And do not take the vicodin if SWIY takes the suboxone as it will be completely wasted. How much bupe are we talking btw? SWIY probably doesn't need much, bupe is potent and the dose response is nonlinear. Try 2 mg sublingual and wait 2 hours (yes, bupe can take that long to kick in; at the VERY least wait a full hour). If SWIY is still twisted, do 2 more mg. With suboxone, less is often more plus if SWIY wants to detox then using the minimal dose is best. DO NOT SHOOT THE PILL. Not because of the naloxone, the buprenorphine outcompetes that, but because it is a good way to get an arm amputated. Snorting is also dumb. Take it sublingual.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2009
  3. mullet0224

    mullet0224 Silver Member

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    SWIM just wants to sleep at night
    around 9 30 tonight itll be 24 hours after SWIMs last time using H
    since he smoked before bed at around 9 30 last night

    he's just trying to keep his suffering to a minimum for work tomorrow
    should he take the suboxone tonight before bed, or tomorrow before work?

    also, swim isnt sure what the dosage of suboxone is that he has. he actually hasnt picked them up yet, hes going to in like an hour or 2 and then he'll know
     
  4. rhudson

    rhudson Newbie

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    If at 9:30 tonight it has been 24 hours since last usage, then it is safe to take the suboxone then. If SWIY can wait until before work, so much the better because SWIY's tolerance will have gone down and he will be closer to being clean and may feel better at work on the suboxone. But SWIM can take it at 9:30. The half-life of suboxone is about 36 hours (a bit less for some people) so whatever SWIY takes will prob hold him for 1-2 days depending on the dose. As for the dosage, SWIM strongly recommends that you begin with JUST 2 mg sublingually and then wait two hours. If withdrawal is still too painful to tolerate after 2 hours, administer another 2 mg. SWIM finds it very hard to believe SWIY will need more than 4 mg to be held, given he has a "small smoking habit" and seems to be able to abstain for more than 24 hrs.

    Also maybe SWIY wants to consider detoxing now that he has some buprenorphine handy? It makes it much easier to taper.
     
  5. Picass035

    Picass035

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    Nice job rhudson:applause: SWIM couldn't have covered the subject any better. It's always nice to see intelligent posts!
     
  6. mullet0224

    mullet0224 Silver Member

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    Yeah thank you very much :)

    Everyone on this forum is very helpful
    Since I have a lot of questions about this kind of stuff, and most people I ask in real life make up bullshit answers
    or just don't know. There isn't really a place to find answers
    (except for here)
     
  7. rhudson

    rhudson Newbie

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    No problem, glad to help. If SWIY needs more treatment advice that doesn't get answered here, private message SWIM and he will give you his contact info. Good luck on the bupe and remember less is more.
     
  8. Rightnow289

    Rightnow289 Palladium Member

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    Why is snorting it dumb?? SWIM guesses it may be if addicted but snorted subbies when not addicted are amazing
     
  9. BrownStreakRailroad

    BrownStreakRailroad Silver Member

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    yeah SWIM agrees with SWIjunk, subutex is the most commonly abused drug in UK prisons and when SWIM has been clean frrom heroin, snorting bupe is very effective!! but when addicted to H, leave for 24 hrs before taking subbies as the bupe saturates the opiate receptors in the brain and blocks the heroin and thats why it will induce w/d if taken earlier.
     
  10. kassy

    kassy Newbie

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    I take suboxone and use Heroin on top..... I find if I take a 8mg suboxone at 5am when i get up for work, then by 11 am (6 hrs after dose) I am then free to use. So I guess 6 hrs after the dose is ok, but takecare with it!!
     
  11. Electrolingus

    Electrolingus Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: how long should swim wait after doing H to take suboxone

    SWIM finds if one waits too long to take Suboxone, then withdraw symptoms can be too severe for the Suboxone to compensate for. SWIM finds the best time to take Suboxone is at the very first sign of mild withdraw. Do not wait for SWIY to get completely ill. SWIM finds if he takes Suboxone in this matter, it takes much less of the drug to keep him comfortable.
     
  12. meandI

    meandI Newbie

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    I am praying that this is the correct place to write this, that I violate no rules, kind of unsteady right now and hope that some one might offer a response.

    I feel something is not right:

    I have been on suboxone pill and film prescribed to me (one 8/2 per day) and for about 7 years or more. For about the last 6 months I've taken 1/2 of an 8/2. I've see no difference, felt no difference. But, 5 days ago, feeling invincible and not hooked on Suboxone, I bought tar heroine. I snort it. No points used. Smoking was worthless. And, It had little effect. I continued buying and doing 1-3 balls a day and barely felt it but, did NO suboxone, now its been 5 -6 days. Just doing the tar.

    I did a small snort at 10-11 PM last night and I slept great and I woke feeling almost fine (usually I would wake up sick, years ago before suboxone use.. 6 more hours have now passed since I woke and it is now 13-16 hours since my last small snort and I am not in complete pain. Normally, years ago, I really would have been in complete withdrawals by this time. A bit listless, stomach w small cramps and yawning a great deal and watery eyes and nose but, no real sick withdrawals.

    I need to get back on suboxone by tomorrow morning when I see a new dosing dr. but am fearing taking it right now as I am not so very sick (as per all I have read), and I don't know when to take it. On the COWS I am at 16, (maybe). I am trying to avoid precipitated withdrawals at all cost. I did not even know PWD existed when I got off the suboxone or I would have not have done it. I have lots more tar here, 3 days worth and I think that makes me feel somewhat better just knowing I have that stashed away. I really wish to get back on suboxone, though.

    The dope I snorted for the these days and was not so strong according to others. Last nights held me better. I did not think all I have purchased was so strong, either but, was not so sure because of my long suboxone use. It has been 5 days since I have taken any suboxone.

    Can someone discuss this with me please. I don't type so well and wish I could discuss this on a phone but, oh well, I am happy if some here will talk to me about this. I think I am in more panic and indecision that any withdrawals.

    Please help?
     
  13. Dontsleepinthepoppies

    Dontsleepinthepoppies Newbie

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    Hey meandI, I know this is about a year too late but maybe someone else will wonder the same thing, so here goes.... In this particular case it seems very likely that even after 4 or 5 days there can still be a fair amount of bupe hanging around on the opioid receptors of a long-time user. Thus, the heroin that was used in the meantime was only able to occupy the receptors that the bupe was no longer occupying (which is why a slightly stronger effect was noticed as time went on). This is also why you do not feel as sick as you usually would 13-16 hours after taking dope. I am guessing the bupe is still on some of your opiate receptors so there is no reason to be afraid of taking sub before you get as sick as you would have to be to take sub without any bupe on your opiate receptors.
    Bupe (suboxone, subutex, butrans etc.) is a complex medication with a lot of misinformation surrounding it. For example, many people believe that the naloxone in suboxone causes precipitated withdrawals, so they just choose subutex instead (because it does not contain naloxone). Big mistake. Buprenorphine has a higher affinity for opioid receptors than naloxone which means that only a small amount of bupe is needed to activate each receptor. This higher strength of attraction also means the effect of bupe lasts much longer than naloxone. If naloxone was the only blocker, you would be able to get high on heroin 4 or 5 hours after taking sub when naloxone stops working. And of course, that is not how sub works- it can take days for a full agonist like heroin to give the user a high after taking bupe. Naloxone is already far outnumbered in quantity (8mgs vs 2mgs) and given that an equal amount of naloxone and bupe would still give bupe most of the receptors, naloxone's effect is negligible. This is why bupe overdoses can be more dangerous than heroin OD's can be; sometimes they cannot be reversed by naloxone and they always require much higher doses fo naloxone than heroin OD's. And yes, naloxone is also used to reverse bupe OD's which seems strange because suboxone has naloxone in it but once again, in very small quantities. Plus, Bupe is absorbed very effectively sublingually but naloxone is not absorbed effectively when taken sublingually. I know some people will argue to the death that naloxone is the opiate blocker, not bupe, and yes, naloxone is an opiate blocker but its effects only last 5 or 6 hours, not 24 hours or more. In fact, in overdose situations, patients are supposed to be observed for approximately 5 hours because in extreme OD's or OD's involving long lasting pills, narcan has to be administered again after the 5 hours so the remaining opiates in the patient's system cannot cause a second OD after the narcan blocker has worn off. However, I'm sure we all know that if you try to do some H 8 hours after taking sub you are unlikely to get high and if you do get high the high will be weak and short-lived. So obviously, the bupe continues to block opiates after the naloxone has been cleared out of the user's system.
    So what is the difference between suboxone and subutex? Nothing really... when the subutex patent ran out, big pharma was like "OMG how can we make more money now that we have to compete with all these generics??!!" So suboxone was born, literally the same medication with "abuse deterrents" to discourage IV usage. So they hyped it up saying "Naloxone is inactive sublingually but active intravenously while Buprenorphine has an incredibly high sublingual absorption rate. So the naloxone will only be activated when the medicine is abused and that will discourage IV abuse." Now that is total shit because bupe has a higher affinity for the opioid receptors in the brain anyways but it sounds good and sells the new brand. Now, IV naloxone is great at removing heroin and other full agonists, and it can add to the bupe's effect as it removes all the opiates from the brain's receptors. This additional effect is only going to occur on the receptors that bupe is unable to cover which depending on dosage will be relatively small but can still be relatively unpleasant. The naloxone alone is not causing the PW though.
    Now you might wonder, why would I get sick if one substance that can get me high is replaced with another one that can? Because bupe has a higher affinity to opioid receptors than heroin, it knocks off the heroin which is a full agonist and replaces it. Bupe is a partial agonist which means it only activates part of the receptor and simply covers the other part of the receptor, preventing it from being activated by any full agonists like heroin. So to put it simply, when the receptors in the brain go from being stimulated 100% to only being stimulated 50%, your brain begins to starve for opioids and gets sick. This is also why taking more heroin to stop precipitated withdrawals does not work, the receptors are now blocked by the bupe and only partially stimulated.

    In a nut-shell, the rules for time-frames vary depending on dosage, rout of administration and duration of use (because sub has a cumulative effect on the brain) but I will give you some rough ideas. To be 100% sure you will avoid PW wait 24 hours after your last heroin use, fentanyl can be closer to 15 hours because it is a shorter acting opoid. I personally feel totally comfortable taking sub 12 hours after heroin and I think most people would be ok after that timeframe as long as the sub is taken sublingually. IV use is probably ok for most people after 24 hours but you could feel about 10 or 15 minutes of discomfort while the naloxone and the bupe fight it out for your receptors (I kinda feel like naloxone might work a bit faster that bupe so bupe comes along and displaces the naloxone after it displaces the H and that is why I feel worse for a few mins after taking sub IV but that is just a guess- not a scientific fact.) For obvious reasons I highly recommend taking at least your first dose sublingually. After your first sub dose, IVing sub will not cause any discomfort because there will not be any H for the naloxone to rip off, only bupe, which will not be affected in a noticeable way with only 2mgs of naloxone.
    Lastly, DO NOT TAKE ANY VICODIN!!!!!!!! I hope the poster above did not take any vicodin to sleep better before taking the sub because that will refill the opiate receptors. Then taking sub in the morning after WILL cause precipitated withdrawal (PW). Vicodin or any opiate pill will require more than the 12hours heroin requires before taking bupe because they are longer lasting opiates. The longer lasting the opiate is, the longer you have to wait before taking sub. That is why fentanyl takes the least amount of time and methadone requires the longest waiting time before taking sub. 24 hours will generally be enough time to wait (except when transitioning from methadone). Just start with a low dose and keep adding more until you feel relief. If you feel it necessary to IV due to an insufficient about of sub, take 2mgs sublingally, wait two hours and if you feel a little better NOT WORSE, then you can IV a larger dose without having to worry about any major discomfort. However, if the initial 2mgs under the tongue makes you feel worse, do not take any more, the precipitated withdrawal will only get worse. Even if you are taking your entire dose under the tongue, ONLY TAKE 2MGS TO START AND WAIT 2 HOURS BEFORE TAKING MORE. This will minimize any PW if it did occur. Feel free to message me with any questions because this subject is very misunderstood, and very complicated. I hope I made this as clear as possible but I know its probably still pretty confusing. Peace and luck to you all.
     
  14. avocado

    avocado Silver Member

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    It depends on the size of your habit, the strength of the heroin, the dose of suboxone, and probably your body too. I could tell you what works for me, but my body, habit, ROA, Suboxone dose are most likely different to yours and it might be harmful for me to tell you how long I can wait until I take the suboxone.

    However, I CAN tell you that I usually wait until I don't feel any high at all, start to feel very tired, and my legs get gooey - but not necessarily sore. I will also usually take less suboxone than my normal dose if I've used that day. The amount of Suboxone I'll take would depend on the time I used, the amount I used, the time of day it is when I'm taking the Suboxone, and how I'm feeling.

    If I take Suboxone while I can feel any sort of high or am feeling generally well, I WILL end up feeling crappy. I've never taken it so soon after using that it sends me into full blown WD's though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
  15. pharmmajor

    pharmmajor Silver Member

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    12 hours is alright if you are really sick....16 is safer. 18 is where I'd say there is no risk at all.

    Just don't take a sub unless you are actually sick tho.
     
  16. carnhage

    carnhage Newbie

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    Snorting it is fine i used to do it al the time.

    I know loads of others that do it too, hits you quicker imo.
     
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