Smoking - How to save your teeth from methamphetamine use?

Discussion in 'Amphetamine' started by Speedballin360, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Speedballin360

    Speedballin360 Newbie

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    I brush my teeth three times a day and after every session I wash my mouth with salt water

    also use dental floss and mouth wash

    don't drink coke neither

    any thing else I can do?

    This is for a person who smokes ALOT of meth
     
  2. Gimpy

    Gimpy Silver Member

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    A lot of the time, frequent meth users can't prevent damage from happening to their teeth. This is because of a lot of teeth grinding (bruxism) and dry mouth (xerostomia) that occurs during meth use. So a lot of the time, brushing your teeth and avoiding sugar won't do the trick but it can't hurt to do so.

    If you haven't heard of "meth mouth" you should research it if you want a better answer than mine.

    For some reason I'm not comfortable with the last line of your post, "This is for a person who smokes ALOT of meth."
     
  3. Whiteboy123

    Whiteboy123 Silver Member

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    Long-term use of methamphetamine can cause caries, or tooth decay to develop.
    You're doing everything you can, and I'm sure it is making a difference, but unfortunately anyone who smokes a lot of meth over an extended period of time, will have to face the very real consequences of methamphetamine.

    There are certain drugs that can be used to increase the amount of your saliva, and prevent dry mouth, avoiding other dental problems in the future. I'd recommend avoiding sugar rich products. There are probably a couple more things you can do, but as long as you are smoking methamphetamine, your teeth will be destroyed.
     
  4. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Meth does not directly impact the teeth. It destroys the gums-- which then causes the teeth to rot and fall out.

    The damage that meth does to the gums is inevitable and irreversible. It has nothing to do with dental hygiene. The meth itself completely messes with the chemistry of the mouth, causing the inevitable "meth mouth." In some people, the damage is immediate and the progress of gum disease is fast-- weeks or months after a few trysts with meth, the gums start rotting and teeth fall out. The bad breath of meth users is "necrotic flesh"-- gum tissue decaying in the mouth.

    There are all sorts of drugs that have anti-collanergic effects (cause "dry mouth"), and these drugs can also cause gum disease. Among these are allergy meds and antidepressants, as well as others. Cocaine, incidentally, falls into this category of drugs. This sort of gum disease can be impeded and halted once it is detected. This is not true of meth. The best dental hygiene in the world will neither slow nor stop meth mouth. Once the meth alters the chemistry of the mouth, eventual loss of gums and all teeth is inevitable. As I said, in some people, the progress is relatively slow; in others it can be insanely fast.

    Meth mouth is NOT contingent upon how much meth you use, nor is it contingent upon how many times you use meth. There are thousands of people who have used meth only once or twice and still lost all of their teeth a few months later.

    Unlike gum disease precipitated by the use of anti-collanergic drugs, meth causes a very distinct expression of necrosis. A dentist looking at gum disease resulting from the use of anti-collanergic drugs cannot distinguish between, say, use of allergy meds vs use of cocaine. But any marginally competent dentist can immediately detect meth use just by glancing at the gums.

    I am not a dentist. Nor do I have any background in any of the medical sciences. But what I have written above can be easily confirmed by anybody with 40 strokes on their keyboard-- or with a conversation with a good dentist.

    This was discussed in another thread. And those who tried to refute this idea (that the introduction of meth to the body inevitably initiates this distinct form of gum disease) eventually had to bow to hard facts and cold data.

    Throughout his dissolute youth, Charlie Sheen used cocaine as his drug of choice. And he never had severe gum problems. A few years ago, after having been clean for a while, he relapsed. And developed a taste for meth. Within 2 months from when he started to use meth, his gums were ruined and his teeth began falling out. He stopped using meth and went back to coke. He invested fathomless sums of money in dental care. But, as I said, this particular condition is irreversible once it begins. Today, he has maybe a few teeth left, but these will fall out soon. He wears dentures in front of a camera. But his hideous breath (smells like the corpse of a cow dead for a week or so) is legendary in LA.

    Somebody asked me if the ROA had any impact on the condition. I've been trying to find an answer to that question, but there seem to be no studies as yet to determine the answer. I have a good friend on the faculty of the UNC School of Dentistry, and he strongly suspects that the ROA is irrelevant-- it is the chemistry of the meth itself interacting with the chemistry of the mouth that causes meth mouth. Any way that you take your meth, it is going to start rotting your gums and lead to toothlessness eventually. Again, with some people this will happen quickly; with others, it will be slower.

    Under the best of circumstances, losing your teeth slowly is not much better than losing them quickly, in my opinion. Having a mouth full of necrotic flesh seems particularly revolting to me.

    Nota Bene: Things don't stop after the teeth are gone. The necrosis eventually leads to the MANDIBLE (your jawbone) starting to decay as well. Charlie Sheen may be able to wear false teeth today, but there is no such thing as a "false jaw." The prognosis for anybody with meth mouth is not good.
     
  5. Beenthere2Hippie

    Beenthere2Hippie The Constant Optimist Palladium Member

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    Very excellent post on tooth and gum damage related to meth, bluenarrative.

    This subject in particular has been danced around many times here on forum, but I don't think anyone ever approached the subject in such depth before. I believe this will be much appreciated by many wondering why their teeth have been reigning like fall leaves, tying closely with their increased use of meth. Good job on this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  6. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Beenthere,

    One of the more disturbing things that I have discovered since joining DF is that a lot of people seem to think that the relationship between meth and gum disease is a myth. Or that it results from tooth grinding. Or that it can be prevented by vigorous dental hygiene!

    And, as is usually the case, these beliefs are held by the youngest members of DF-- those who are naturally inclined to suppose that they are somehow immune from consequences. Quite apart from anything else meth might do to somebody, the image of young people in their early 20s suffering a complete loss of their teeth fills me with immense sorrow. My first experience with meth mouth was a young woman who was 21 years old. She tried meth 3 times before deciding that she didn't like it. And 8 months after her third experience, she was wearing a full set of dentures, as well as undergoing radical medical treatments intended to attempt to save her mandible.

    Young people are exposed early and often to a kind of standard cookie-cutter diatribe against any/all drugs (death! madness! jail!) and they become inoculated against such screeds fairly easily. More than simply being inoculated against this sort of blanket admonition, it is not hard for anybody with a modicum of intelligence to recognize that these are fates that do not befall most drug users. It is pretty easy for most kids to intellectually discount the relevance of these hazards to their own lives.

    The campaign against smoking cigarettes, on the other hand, has been immensely successful among young people-- unlike any campaigns against drugs.

    I sort of intuitively suspect that this may have something to do with the specificity of the danger inherent in cigarettes. If you smoke cigarettes, the likelihood that you will get lung cancer-- an otherwise exceedingly rare disease-- is very high.

    I think it is somehow easier for young people to process such a specific warning than it is to process a more general warning.

    And, certainly, meth mouth qualifies as a very specific danger that is uniquely associated with meth use, even when meth is used only a few times. So, I am a little bit surprised that kids are told very little about this particular hazard.

    We live in a culture that is obsessed with putting celebrities under the microscope. The media, for example, loves to examine things like the prevalence of plastic surgery among stars, or the psychological/psychiatric demons that many celebrities battle. But why has E! not done a special on Charlie Sheen's teeth??? I once saw a special that they produced about Mel Gibson's drinking. Why are Charlie Sheen's teeth off limits?

    I think that we all know the answer.
     
  7. JustKeepSwimmin

    JustKeepSwimmin Titanium Member

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    I would love to see some sources for this information BlueNarrative. I am highly skeptical that using meth one time can cause you to lose all of your teeth.
     
  8. Beenthere2Hippie

    Beenthere2Hippie The Constant Optimist Palladium Member

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    [​IMG]You are absolutely right about this. And the fact that it is rarely publicized, till after the fact. Perhaps I'm jaded but I think that may be related to the fact that there is Money To Be Made on those who don't pay attention till it''s too late, sad to say.

    I'm also a big believer in visual proof, so perhaps these photos from pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/body/[/url] will help the cause along, as well as possible sticker shock relating to pricing:






    Cost of Tooth Replacement Today's Technology


    America: Single dental implant -from $1,000 - $5,000 per tooth ($24,000 - $100,000 a mouth, as per CNN :D)

    Europe: 515 Euros per single dental implant and placement in Ireland's Kreativ Dentistry; full mouth pricing done
    on individual basis :eek:)

    The Bottom Line On The Teeth and Gum Health

    The dental health of the nation is being affected by a number of oral health factors; including (1) consequences of tooth loss, (2) a related decrease in health, (3) the psychological aspects of tooth loss, and (4) poor performance of removable replacement teeth.

    The goal of modern dentistry is to restore the patient's mouth to normal function, comfort, esthetics, speech and health, regardless of the disease, injury, or atrophy present within the oral environment. However, the more teeth a patient is missing, the more difficult this goal becomes with traditional dentistry. As a result of continued implant research and the advances in implant techniques, predictable success is now a reality for the rehabilitation of many challenging patient situations. As our population ages this success becomes critically important in order to preserve the health of the population.[​IMG]Life expectancy has increased significantly past the age of retirement. In 1965, the average life span was 65 years, whereas in 1990 it was 78 years. A person 65 years old, can now expect to live 16.7 more years, and one 80 years old can expect to live more than 8 more years. This increased life expectancy has led to increased tooth loss. Currently, 26% of all Americans over the age of 65 have either lost one full arch or have lost all of their teeth. Social pleasures, including dining and dating, are diminished when the teeth are lost.

    Almost 30% of the employed or retired adult US population is either missing all their teeth, all their upper teeth, one entire posterior segment (a full quarter of the mouth) or has all of their back teeth missing. A study by CW Douglas published in J. Pros. Dent. (2002, 87, 5-8), stated that:

    In the year 2000 there were 35.4 million denture wearers - that is approximately 17% of the population of the United States. The number will increase to 37.9 million by 2020 56.5 million dentures were made in the year 2000. The number will increase to 61 million by 2020.

    In the past, dentistry for the elderly has consisted of inexpensive treatments emphasizing non-surgical approaches. Conditions of tooth loss were treated with removable replacement teeth, called full or partial dentures. Today, the full scope of dental services for elderly patients is becoming increasingly important to both the public and the profession, because of the increasing age of our society.

    Alternative treatment designs, which include methods to reconstruct teeth on top of implants and that are not removable, should be presented to almost every patient. Only when all options for treatment are discussed can a person's desires related to the benefit of modern dentistry be truly appreciated.

    Eventually, the need for additional retention, support, and stability, or the desire to eliminate a removable denture, are common indications for more effective and permanent solutions, such as dental implants. Dental implants, which are man-made tooth root replacements, are also increasingly used to replace a missing single tooth. Like natural tooth roots, they can be used to support permanent types of tooth replacements, or act as anchors for a removable prosthesis to replace teeth (i.e. dentures).

    Today, this represents the most conservative and most predictable long-term option. Traditional dentistry most often replaces the missing single tooth with a fixed bridge. This is accomplished by grinding away sound tooth structure, and crowning (capping) two or more teeth on each side of the missing tooth and joins them together with the artificial or dummy tooth. This approach increases the risk of decay of the crowned teeth, increases the risk of root canal therapy, and makes oral hygiene difficult to impossible, which in turn increases bacterial plaque retention (the cause of decay and gum disease).

    Today's technology can replace the tooth with a dental implant, which may replace a single tooth or a whole mouth of teeth, without crowning any teeth. One of the major benefits is that the remaining teeth are easier to clean and less likely to decay, and/or need root canal therapy. The average dental implant has a better long-term survival rate than the average bridge. The average bridge gets replaced every 8 to 10 years.

    Consequences of Tooth Loss and Effect on the Jaw Bone

    The bone in the body acts very similar to a muscle. When muscles are exercised, they grow strong and larger. When bone is exercised or stimulated, it also becomes stronger. For example, when an arm is broken and placed in a cast for six weeks, you can see the arm is smaller after this time frame, since the muscles have started to shrink or atrophy. In addition, if you evaluate the bone protected by the cast, it also becomes less dense and weaker in this period. Similarly, the bone of the jaw can only be stimulated by a tooth or by an implant.

    The connections between a tooth, or an implant, create and preserve the size and shape of the bone. Bone needs the stimulation of the tooth roots to maintain its form, density, and strength. Scientific studies have proven that the normal chewing forces that are transmitted from the teeth to the bone of the jaw are what preserves the bone and keeps it strong.

    This close relationship between the tooth and the bone continues throughout life. When a tooth is lost, the lack of stimulation to the surrounding bone results in a decrease in the density and dimensions of the bone. This means that there is a loss of width and height of the bone. In a 25-year study of patients with no teeth, x-rays demonstrated continued bone loss of the jaws during this entire time span. Therefore, a tooth is necessary both to the development of the bone around the tooth, and is also necessary for the stimulation of this bone to maintain its strength, density and shape.

    The loss of all of the teeth slowly, but eventually, leads to jaws with almost complete bone loss. A lower jaw, which starts out two inches in height, can be reduced to less than one-quarter of an inch by atrophy over time. That is one reason why modern dentistry is so excited about using dental implants to replace missing teeth.

    Patients wearing dentures don't realize they are losing bone. Over time, the poor fit and function of the denture is often thought to be due to its age, weight loss by the patient, or wear of the denture's teeth. The rate and amount of bone loss may be influenced by gender (females lose more bone), hormones (lack of estrogen causes more bone loss), metabolism, medications, parafunction (grinding the teeth) and poorly fitting dentures. Despite this, almost 40% of denture wearers have been wearing the same denture for more than 10 years.

    Although the fact that wearing dentures day and night places greater forces on the bone and gum, and accelerates bone loss, 80% of dentures are worn both day and night.

    Consider the following: The issue of bone loss after tooth loss has been ignored in the past by traditional dentistry. This is so because dentistry had no treatment to stop or prevent the process of bone loss and its consequences. As a result, doctors had to ignore the inevitable bone loss after tooth extraction. Today, the profession knows about bone loss and implants can stop bone loss because implants stimulate the bone, similar to the way the tooth did prior to its loss.

    Jaws with bone loss are associated with problems, which often impair the predictable results of traditional dentures. The loss of bone first results in decreased bone width. There is a 25% decrease in width of bone during the first year after tooth loss and an overall _-inch decrease in height during the first year following extractions of several teeth. The remaining narrow bone often causes discomfort when the thin overlying gum tissues are loaded under a complete or partial denture.

    In the lower jaw, the continued bone loss eventually results in prominent bony projections covered by thin, movable, unattached gum tissue. As the remaining bone on the front of the jaw continues to disappear, the bony projection under the tongue rises to sit on the top of ridge. This results in pain, as the denture sits atop the sharp bony projection. In addition, there is little to prevent the denture from moving forward against the lower lip during function or speech. The problems are further compounded by the upward movement of the back of the denture during contraction of the muscles during speech and function. The resulting incline (slope) of the now deformed lower jaw compared with that of the upper jaw also creates instability and movement of the lower denture.

    Loss of bone in the upper and lower jaw is not limited to the bone around the teeth; portions of the skeletal bone also may be lost especially in the back parts of the lower jaw where the patient may lose more than 80% of the bone. The nerves of the lower jaw which were surrounded by and protected by bone eventually become exposed and sit on the top of the ridge directly under the denture. As a result, acute pain and/or temporary to permanent loss of sensation or feeling of the areas supplied by the nerve is possible. The bone loss in the upper jaw may cause pain and an increase in upper denture movement during eating.

    The forces from eating with an ill-fitting denture are transferred directly to the surface only and not the internal structure of the bone since there are no roots. Therefore, these forces do not stimulate and maintain the bone, but instead actually decrease blood supply and increased the rate of the bone loss. Chewing forces generated by short facial types can be 3 or 4 times that of long facial types. These patients are at even greater risk to develop severe bone loss.

    Many of these conditions that have been described for patients without any teeth also exist for patients where only back teeth are missing and they are wearing a removable partial denture. The above problems focus on the damage to the bone. The remaining natural teeth are also subjected to substantial damage. The teeth must support the partial denture by connections called clasps.

    The clasps grab onto the teeth, and by design, transfer lateral or sideward forces to the teeth, which weaken them and cause tooth loss. Since these teeth often become compromised by loss of bone due to these forces, many partial dentures are then designed to minimize the forces applied upon these teeth. The net result is an increase in movement of the removable denture, and greater pressures on the soft gum tissue over the bone. This results in more bone loss. These conditions can protect the remaining teeth, but then accelerate the bone loss in the regions without teeth.

    Effect on Soft Tissue

    As bone continues to lose width and height, the gum tissues gradually decrease. A very thin gum usually lies over the advanced bone loss of the lower jaw. The gum is prone to sore spots caused by the overlaying denture. In addition, unfavorable high muscle attachments and loose tissue often complicates the situation.

    The tongue of the patient with no teeth often enlarges to accommodate the increase in space formerly occupied by teeth. At the same time, the tongue is used to limit the movements of the removable denture, and takes a more active role in the chewing of food. As a result, the removable denture decreases in stability. The decrease in muscular control, often associated with aging, further compounds the problems of traditional removable dentures.

    The ability to wear a denture successfully may be largely a learned, skilled performance. The aged patient who recently loses their teeth may lack the motor skills needed to accommodate to the new conditions. This often results in food that is not adequately chewed, resulting in digestion and nutrition problems. (See "Health Effects of Tooth Loss" below)

    Effects of Bone Loss on Facial Appearance

    Facial changes naturally occur in relation to the aging process. When the teeth are lost, this process is grossly accelerated with more rapid facial aging. The loss of teeth can add 10 or more years to a person's face. A decrease in face height occurs as a result of the collapse of bone height when teeth are lost. This results in several facial changes. The decrease in the angle next to the lips and deepening of vertical lines on the lips create a harsher appearance. As the vertical bone loss progressively and rapidly increases, the bite relationship deteriorates. As a result, the chin rotates forward and gives a poorer facial appearance.

    These conditions result in a decrease in the angle at the corner of the lips, and the patient appears unhappy when the mouth is at rest. Short facial types have higher bite forces, greater bone loss and more facial changes with tooth loss, compared to others. A thinning of the upper lip results from the poor lip support provided by the denture. And, there is a loss of tonicity of the muscles. Women often use one of two techniques to hide this cosmetically undesirable appearance: either no lipstick and minimum make-up, so that little attention is brought to this area of the face or lipstick is drawn over the border of the lips to give the appearance of fuller lips.

    The upper lip naturally becomes longer with age as a result of gravity and loss of muscle tone. The loss of muscle tone is accelerated in a patient with no teeth hence the lengthening of the lip occurs at a younger age. Men often grow a moustache to minimize this effect. This has a tendency to "age" the smile, because the younger the patient, the more the teeth show in relation to the upper lip at rest or when smiling.

    A deepening of the groove next to the nose and an increase in the depth of other vertical lines are made worse by the bone loss in the upper front jaw. This usually is accompanied by an increase in the angle under the nose. This can make the nose appear larger. The attachments of the muscles to the jaw also are affected by bone loss. The tissue sags along the lower jaw with bone loss, producing "jowls" or a "witch's chin." This effect is additive because of the loss of muscle tone along with the loss of teeth.

    Patients are unaware that these bone, gum and facial changes are due to the loss of teeth. Instead, they blame these problems on aging, weight loss, or the dentist for making a poor denture.

    Health Effects of Tooth Loss

    A study of 367 denture wearers (158 men and 209 women) found that 47% exhibited a low chewing performance. Lower intakes of fruit and vegetables and vitamin A were also noted in this group. These patients took significantly more drugs (37%) compared to those with superior chewing ability (20%), and 28% were taking medications for stomach or intestinal disorders. The reduced consumption of high fiber foods could therefore induce stomach or intestinal problems in patients without teeth with deficient chewing performance. In addition, as the coarser food is chewed it may impair proper digestive and nutrient extraction functions.

    The literature provides several reports that suggest that compromised dental function results in poor swallowing and chewing performance which in turn may negatively affect overall health and favor illness, debilitation, and shortened life expectancy.

    Several reports in the literature correlate patients' health and life span to their dental health. After conventional risk factors for stroke and heart attacks were accounted for, there was a significant relationship between dental disease and heart or blood vessel disease, still the major cause of death. It is legitimate to believe that restoring the mouth of patients to a more normal function may indeed enhance the quality and length of life.

    Psychological Aspects of Tooth Loss

    The psychological effects of total tooth loss are complex and varied, and range from very minimal to a state of anxiety. Although complete dentures are able to satisfy the appearance needs of many patients, there are many who feel their social life is significantly affected. They are concerned with kissing and romantic situations, especially if a new relationship is unaware of their oral handicap. A past dental health survey indicates that only 80% of the population without teeth is able to wear both upper and lower dentures all of the time.

    Some patients wear only one of the dentures, usually the upper; others are able to wear their dentures only for short periods. In addition, approximately 7% of denture wearers are not able to wear them at all, and become dental cripples or "oral invalids." They rarely leave their home environment, and when they feel forced to "venture out", the thought of meeting and talking to people while not wearing teeth is unsettling.

    Misch and Misch performed a study of 104 patients missing all of their teeth and seeking treatment. A total of 88% of the patients claimed difficulty with speech, with 25% of that population reporting very difficult problems. It is easy to correlate the reported increase in concern relative to social activities. Movement of the lower denture was reported by 62.5% of these patients.

    The upper denture "stayed in place" at almost the same percentage. Lower jaw discomfort was listed with equal frequency as movement (63.5%), and 16.5% stated they never wear the lower denture. The psychological effects of the inability to eat in public can be correlated to these findings. In comparison, the upper denture was uncomfortable half as often (32.6%), and only 0.9% of patients were seldom able to wear the denture. Function was the fourth problem reported. Half of the patients avoided many foods, and 17% claimed they were able to chew more effectively without the denture.

    The psychological needs of the patient without teeth can be expressed in many forms. For example, in 1982 more than 5 million Americans used denture adhesives. A recent report showed that in the United States more than $147 million is spent each year on denture adhesives, representing 45 million units sold. The patient is willing to accept the unpleasant taste, need for recurrent application, inconsistent denture fit, embarrassing circumstances, and continued expense for the sole benefit of increased retention of the denture.

    In contrast, 80% of the patients treated with implant-supported prostheses judged their overall psychological health improved compared with their previous state wearing traditional, removable dentures, and perceived the implant-supported prosthesis (denture) as an integral part of their body. Clearly, the lack of retention and psychological risk of embarrassment in the denture wearer is a concern the dental profession must address.

    Decreased Performance of Removable Dentures

    The difference in maximum bite forces recorded in a person with natural teeth and one who is completely without teeth is dramatic. In the first molar region of a person with teeth, the average force has been measured at 150 to 250 pounds per square inch (psi). A patient who grinds or clenches the teeth may exert a force that approaches 1,000 psi since their muscles get stronger with the increase in exercise.

    The maximum bite force in the patient without teeth is reduced to less than 50 psi, since they now must chew on the softer gums. The longer the patient is without teeth, the more the muscles atrophy and the less force they are able to generate. Patients wearing complete dentures for more than 15 years may have a maximum bite force of 5.6 psi, because the muscles decrease in strength and tone.

    As a result of decreased bite force and the instability of the denture, chewing efficiency also is decreased with tooth loss. Within the same time frame, 90% of the food chewed with natural teeth fits through a no. 12 sieve; this is reduced to 58% in the patient wearing complete dentures. The 10-fold decrease in force and the 30% decrease in efficiency affects the patient's ability to chew. A total of 29% of persons with dentures are able to eat only soft or mashed foods, while 50% avoid many foods, and 17% claim they eat more efficiently without the denture.

    Removable partial dentures have one of the lowest patient acceptance rates in dentistry. A four-year Scandinavian study revealed that only 80% of patients who received partial dentures were wearing them after one year. The number further decreased to only 60% after four years. Reports of removable partial dentures indicate the health of the remaining teeth and surrounding gum tissues could deteriorate.

    In a study that evaluated the need for repair of a tooth as the indicator of failure of the partial denture, the survival rate of conventional removable partial dentures was 40% after 5 years and 20% after 10 years. The patients wearing the partial dentures often exhibit greater mobility of the teeth, greater bacterial plaque retention, increased bleeding around the teeth, more incidence of decay and accelerated bone loss in the regions with no teeth. Therefore, alternative therapies which improve the oral conditions and maintain bone are often more desirable.

    The 5-year survival rates of partial dentures based upon tolerance and use of the dentures is approximately 60% when replacing molars and 80% for partials completely supported by teeth. This is reduced to 35% and 60% at 10 years respectively. In another study, few partial dentures survived more than 6 years. Although one out of 5 U.S. adults has had a removable denture of some type, 60% reported at least one problem with it."-- Dr.s Michael Skimmer and Jason Primm, newteethforme.com
     

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  9. Whiteboy123

    Whiteboy123 Silver Member

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    I was writing what I thought I had remembered reading recently.

    I apologize for not checking before posting. :s

    Thank you for correcting me, and thank both of you for writing excellent replies.

    Cheers :beer
     
  10. Pharfromsober

    Pharfromsober Palladium Member

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    I would also like to see some studies backing up what you say bluenarrative. I believe that meth mouth is a real condition, and that it affects some people much faster than others.

    What I find hard to believe is that using meth just once or twice will cause irreversible, life time oral health issues. That really seems far fetched to me.

    Just doing some research myself has shown me that xerostomia, bruxism, and excess HCl in meth are believed to be the common cause of meth mouth. There are some people that believe there is more involved but I wasn't able to find any evidence backing it up.

    I have no doubt that using meth long term has heavy consequences, but if you're going to make claims like that you really need to back it up on DF.
     
  11. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Pharfrom,

    I am pretty good at accessing general medical information. Some resources, such as Medline (a database of research used by almost all physicians in the States) are pretty easy for me to use. But I confess that I know very little about what comparable databases exist for dentistry, in general, and for periodontics, in particular. Meth mouth constitutes a sub-specialty of periodontics. So, I sort of feel that my ability to access good research on this subject is somewhat limited. As I said in previous comments, I do have a friend on the faculty of the UNC School of Dentistry, who's specialty is periodontics. And I have already asked him to forward to me any/every research on this subject. I've now been waiting for him to do this for a few days. I shall post whatever I get asap.

    The fact that most gum disease is irreversible is undisputed. Just Google "periodontics" and you can learn this for yourself.

    Regarding the notion that just one or two experiences with meth can suddenly and irreversibly trigger meth mouth is based on personal experience with several people that I know well who have experienced this for themselves. I cite a few of these experiences in my comments above.

    Again, this does not happen to everybody as quickly or as dramatically as it does with some people. But it does happen. I have seen it with my own eyes. Hence, my passion for refuting ideas that meth mouth can be avoided by dental hygiene or by titration of meth.

    There must be some dentists on DF, I imagine. Maybe one could address your questions.

    bluenarrative added 13 Minutes and 9 Seconds later...

    There are several threads on the subject of meth mouth here on DF. In these other threads, others cite instances and experiences with meth mouth that comport with my basic assertion-- that meth mouth can be triggered suddenly and dramatically after only a few experiences with meth. If I was the only person on DF making such claims, then your skepticism might be warranted. But the fact that others have reported this seems to suggest that there is substance to this.

    Look around here on DF and see what you can find on the subject.

    Maybe, you could start a new thread titled "Any Dentists on DF? Need Info on Meth Mouth."

    It might be interesting to see what replies are received.

    Don't take my word for any of this. As far as that goes, don't take anybody's word about anything-- do the research yourself!

    I am not a dentist, nor do I have any background at all in the medical sciences.There are others who can address this subject with a lot more competence than I can.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  12. Pharfromsober

    Pharfromsober Palladium Member

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    I do believe it can happen very quickly for some people, but one or two uses? I just can't digest that without a little more evidence than word of mouth.

    You seem like a very intelligent and well spoken individual, unlike some people I have seen come on here making far fetched claims. Therefore I am inclined to believe you, but I would still like more evidence. I hope maybe a dentist can enlighten us both a little.

    I have a healthy appreciation for what drugs can do to a persons teeth, I used cocaine heavily for the better part of a decade. My teeth are ruined from all the coke I snorted and smoked. I have been lucky so far and lost only one, but many more are soon to follow. I recently went to the dentist and my estimated costs for repairs were over $6000.

    I just had my wife take a picture of my teeth, I'm going to upload it to DF and once a mod approves it I'll add it to this thread.

    I realize its not meth mouth, but its very similar. A real picture from a member may carry more weight in this thread.


    Edit: This is what ten years of smoking crack did to my teeth-
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  13. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Bruxism may contribute to an overall deterioration of dental heath, in some ways. But it may also be the body's way of combating gum disease sometimes-- albeit a rather dramatic and skewed defense. Ordinarily, the best way to keep your gums healthy is to use your teeth. Chewing food strengthens the gums. People on liquid diets or who are fed through a GI tube are wildly prone to gum deterioration.

    I can easily imagine that the body detecting a chemical assault on the gums, or some other danger to the gums, would signal the teeth to "get to work," so to speak...

    In its extreme form (fueled with meth, for example) this response would be counterproductive. Bruxism damages the teeth. Big time. Meth mouth is a phenomenon that is specifically caused by gum disease, unrelated to grinding of the teeth. Can the two things be interrelated? My guess is that they can be. But not necessarily.

    Just idle speculation on my part as I consider your comment.
     
  14. Beenthere2Hippie

    Beenthere2Hippie The Constant Optimist Palladium Member

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    Guys-

    Here's some more really creepy personal stories about meth-mouth and its occurance on different people at its site HERE . Seems like a big page and takes a minute to load but this girl Haley's personal story is like kind of worth the trip. Damn.

    Also, the only direct information I could find on earliest time frame on meth-mouth was here below from amazon's askville. Hope this helps till I can dig something else up.

    "Several years, usually [to develop meth-mouth]. The combination of poor oral hygiene in heavy users, dry mouth, malnutrition, and teeth grinding [bruxism] seem to be the principal culprits. Their teeth just rot right out of their heads. If they hold it together enough to brush their teeth at least that slows it down some. Not a pretty sight.--edfoug

    Also - Here are past posts from DF on the subject, including on one from Docta (who many of us believe is a real doctor), so see what you think.

    Meth-mouth https://drugs-forum.com/threads/21229
    Useful tips for frequent users: https://drugs-forum.com/threads/187740
    Keeping beautiful when using: https://drugs-forum.com/threads/188499
     
  15. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Beenthere,

    Thank you for the links!

    What I have been told by a dentist: meth is not dramatically corrosive to teeth, though it is somewhat corrosive. Meth does have a dramatic impact on the gums. Corrosive is not the correct term to describe what meth does to the gums, but since I am not a scientist I cannot supply the right term offhand.

    Beenthere, some of the info in your links seems very dated to me. But what do I know?

    Meth mouth is obviously an imprecise term. Some people use it to refer to bruxism and other conditions. Other people use it to specifically denote a periodontal issue. Taking my cue from an academic periodontist, I am inclined to use the term to refer to a specific gum disease. But, again, what do I know?

    As lots of people know, meth was developed and used by the military in WWII. It kept pilots awake on long bombing runs; it allowed fighter pilots to hyper-focus in the midst of confusing air battles, and it allowed infantry to stay awake during prolonged combat situations when sleeping troops could have caused disasters. All combatants in WWII used meth this way. It was administered to countless millions of soldiers for months and years at a time. And in massively large doses. Lots of guys were discharged with "combat fatique" which was a polite way of saying they were burned out on meth.

    I bet there is a trove of classified information on meth being kept under wraps by the US military.

    Somebody should do a FOIA search and see what turns up!

    Beenthere-- if you did the FOIA search you might have material for a great book!
     
  16. flowertongue666

    flowertongue666 Titanium Member

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    I don't personally care for methamphetamine, I feel it's a drug that isn't very useful and is, far more often than not, destructive to the user and society. Abstinence is the very best policy when it comes to harm reduction for this drug, but people continue to use meth...

    However, there is nothing wrong with speedballin360's suggestions and I find he was one of the people who was most helpful in this thread. To suggest that there is nothing a meth user do to improve his dental health is like saying "if you drive a car, you will die- there's no point in wearing a safety belt."

    All stimulants are harmful to the teeth. Meth seems to be particularly devastating. The specific cause of the "meth mouth" is unknown, although drug-induced xerostomia (dry mouth) and bruxism (grinding of the teeth) are thought to be involved. Other frequently cited factors are poor nutrition, eating too much sugar, and lack of dental hygiene, common among long-term users of the drug.

    Until someone's proven that meth use causes tooth loss by a mechanism that cannot be prevented, any effort to get users to try to stay hydrated, eat, brush, floss, avoid sugary/acidic foods/beverages and to avoid other stimulants is to be applauded.

    Meth addicts typically go on long runs whose sole function is to obtain more of the drug. I highly doubt that many are maintaining proper oral hygiene. And, as a result, it's hard to separate causal factors in observed cases of 'meth mouth'.

    I'd like to see some evidence for a metabolic process being permanently altered (other than cell death- the complete cessation of metabolic processes) in a living body. You mention necrosis, which is valid (gums don't grow back after they die), but the 'chemistry of the mouth' will return to normal once meth is eliminated from the body.

    This is simply not true.

    I spent a good chunk of time looking into this. The shortest window of use I saw was a couple of months for one user. There is no documented case of "meth mouth" happening from single use.

    Could you post the link? All the info I found about 'meth mouth' was either anecdotal or assertion not backed by any data.

    "I smoked for 40 years and never had a cough. But, one day, I smoked a pack of cigarettes and got lung cancer. I wonder what they put in that last pack..."

    If this is even true, it proves nothing.

    Richard Gere is legendary for having put a gerbil in his rectum. I've heard that legend for 30 years. It does not constitute proof.

    Wait- I thought:

    So, your proof that your assertion is true is a dare for others to look up info that you, yourself, can't find?

    I look forward to it, honestly. Please ask him about the mechanisms by which methamphetamine causes 'meth mouth.' The info would be greatly appreciated.

    No one is disputing this. The things that are up for dispute are the assertions that 1) one time usage of meth can cause an irreversible condition called 'meth mouth' and that 2) nothing can be done to prevent massive and devastating tooth/jaw loss if a person uses meth.

    Regardless of the cause, ALL gum disease is irreversible. I am not going to tell a person it doesn't matter if he/she brushes his/her teeth because people who brush and floss (and don't use meth) sometimes get irreversible gum disease, too.

    And I know people who have used meth who have not had cavities, ever. It doesn't prove that 'meth mouth' can't happen. And I don't tell other people not to brush based on that handful of people.

    Sounds like you just looked them up. Please post, i'm having trouble finding 'I only took meth once and had otherwise good oral hygiene and I got meth mouth' threads.

    But I want to be able take the word of some people on this site. I like that we look into subjects and are working towards a common aim. I like when someone calls me on my info and I have to admit that I was wrong. I also like providing helpful info to others. I like the work others do on this site.

    And because of that, I think if you make outlandish claims- YOU should be the one to back them up.

    I know, because dentists are passionate about telling people to brush their teeth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  17. bluenarrative

    bluenarrative Silver Member

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    Flowertongue,

    Your overall criticism of my various posts on this subject are valid and very useful. For example, I have, in fact, in places conflated anecdotal evidence with research. The "40 strokes" remark that I made is a prime example of such conflation. And I should have been much more specific about what can be found when pursuing this subject.

    Having just said this, however, I will also point out that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily useless or invalid information. Much scientific research is launched because of anecdotal evidence. A large body of anecdotal evidence often (usually?) means that there is something to the anecdotes, even if that something is only dimly understood.

    As you are undoubtedly aware by now (having made your own 40 strokes) there is a huge body of anecdotal evidence that seems to support my basic assertion. Surely, there must be something to this. I will let you and others more qualified than me determine what that something is exactly.

    More to the point, perhaps, is the fact that I have been assured that there is research backing up my basic assertion. And as soon as I have this in hand I will post the material to this thread.

    In fact, my only reason for entering this conversation was to correct the assertion that meth mouth is a myth. Or, that meth mouth can easily be prevented by adhering to a normal routine of dental hygiene. Both of these ideas are patently false. And I would defy you to cite some scientific research backing up your insinuation that brushing, flossing, and hydrating will in any way substantially impede the development of meth mouth.

    At no point did I ever say anything that could be construed as discouraging good habits of dental hygiene. Any way that you look at it, meth use entails serious dental hazards other than gum disease. Some of these other things, such as bruxism, have direct bearing on the heath of one's gums. Other have a more indirect bearing. And so it stands to reason that good overall dental hygiene will mitigate some problems. I fail to understand why you think that I was saying something other than this.

    I have also discussed how the term meth mouth is tossed around carelessly, and how it means different things to different people. Some people, for instance, think that meth mouth is only because of bruxism; others think that bruxism and meth mouth are one and the same thing. It was my hope that some of these misunderstandings might be clarified and corrected.

    Also, I have repeatedly explained that my primary source of what I deem to be scientific information on the subject is from an academic periodontist. Following his lead, I view meth mouth as being primarily an issue with the gums-- an issue that inevitably effects the teeth, as well. I have been discussing meth mouth on several threads here on DF and, so far, nobody has offered me any reason to not view it in this way-- and to not restrict my use of the term to an affliction of the gums.

    I have cited some of my own personal experiences with this condition. I do not use meth. I do not personally have any serious dental issues and my gums are just fine. But I have known several people who almost overnight developed massive dental/periodontal issues after trying meth a few times, at most. You will never convince me that this never happens. I have seen it happen with my own eyes. And the several dentists that I know have also seen it.

    Which makes me wonder (and, I know, this may not be entirely fair) why you are so determined to question this.

    In one of my comments, I mentioned Charlie Sheen. I was reluctant to do so, but I felt that his problems are so iconic that it would almost be irresponsible not to use his name-- and my personal relationship with him-- as a point of reference.

    Whenever I drop a name, you can be assured that I am talking about somebody that I know. The nature of my career and the successful pursuit of this career mandates that this be an ironclad rule for me.

    Just for the record, I do know Charlie Sheen. I am not any sort of friend of his. But we have known each other for years. He works in sectors of the entertainment industry that I have nothing to do with, so our paths never cross professionally. And his social circles are pretty far removed from my social circles. But I am, in fact, very friendly with his father and his brother, going way back. And I have observed the progress of Charlie's professional and personal life since the start of his career. When I talk about Charlie Sheen, I am not passing along gossip gleaned from TMZ or E! or People Magazine... I am talking about what I personally know to be true... And, so, once again, I am going to say that Charlie Sheen had excellent dental heath and a full set of teeth until he, fairly recently, tried meth for the first time. And in a few months he had major meth mouth, resulting in being toothless today.

    I've never met Richard Gere. I have no idea at all what he may-- or may not-- stick up his ass. But maybe five months ago I had a passing interaction with Charlie at an airport. And he had the most revolting breath that I have ever seen in another person. And in the business that I work in, his hideous breath is legendary.

    I will continue to post information to this thread, as it becomes available to me. And I will be much, much, much more careful about how I phrase myself, so as to prevent you or others from misunderstanding me.

    It was good of you to draw my attention to some of the deficiencies of my comments. And I want to sincerely thank you for that. I am very new to DF and I do not want to get off on the wrong foot here.

    Perhaps, I am wrong, but it seems to me that some of your hectoring tone, your forensic analysis of my rhetoric, and your sarcastic comments about Richard Gere and gerbils was born out of an impression that I might just be some idiotic "kid who does not know what he is talking about." There seem to be a few of these on DF, so I am not surprised that you may have classified me as among their company.

    My detailed knowledge about many things is very limited, to be sure. But I make a point of never blowing smoke out of my ass. I'm not a kid. I actually like to think that I might have some germane things to offer the DF community. But, I always try to qualify most things that I say on DF with a candid and honest admission of my limitations. I never pose as an expert on subjects in which I am not an expert. And I am always willing to admit error and learn new things. Which I hope may, perhaps, redeem me somewhat in your eyes, over time.

    Again, please accept my most sincere apologies for not expressing myself well and/or creating confusion about my intentions on this thread.

    bluenarrative added 136 Minutes and 40 Seconds later...

    Flowertongue,

    Certain drugs most certainly do affect the body's chemistry long after a course of treatment has been discontinued. Penicillin and most SSRIs are well-known examples. To assert that it makes no sense to claim that the human body only reacts in transient ways to various drugs is simply not true.

    Whether or not anybody has ever lost all of their teeth after only one brush with meth may be debatable. One could argue, not unreasonably, that the term "once" is imprecise-- purity and dosages vary; the amount of time (minutes? hours? days?) can be interpreted broadly; etc.

    That some people lose their teeth after just 2 or 3 experiences with meth is much less debatable, I think.

    However, I recognize that other factors may be at work besides the meth itself. It would require a lot of effort to entirely rule out all other possibilities, beyond occasionally dabbling with meth. And I am most assuredly not qualified to work through such a differential diagnosis. But friends of mine are qualified to do this. And I will take their word for it that it is the meth itself-- and not haphazard hygiene or some undetected or mysterious force-- that wreaks this particular sort of damage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
  18. Cwb20022

    Cwb20022 Palladium Member Donating Member

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    I've been doing research for quite some time and can't find anything even close to what blue narritive is saying. Everything I find says its from the dry mouth grinding and lack of hygiene. I am patiently waiting for the evidence that backs these claims.

    I am not a meth user but have used it. My teeth are fine I would really like to know if there going to fall out one day. I am not trying to say anyone is wrong but what you are saying is my teeth will fall out from meth I used over 2 years ago. If this is the case I need scientific evidence to support this. Like I said I've been looking for awhile now and can't find anything even close. If this is true iwould think a lot of people would never use meth in the first place. Also I don't know of anything I can ingest now that will alter my chemical makeup forever. What is in the meth that can do this?

    And another thing. Meth users tend to do one of two things. Don't brush at all or brush like crazy hoping to prevent meth mouth. But brushing to much is actually as bad as not brushing at all. It will destroy the enamel( the protective coating of your teeth). Leaving unprotected teeth and a greater chance for there to be problems. Best thing is to brush normally and use mouthwash and floss when using. Of coarse not grinding your teeth will make a huge difference. And plain water is best for dry mouth as most soft drinks contain massive amounts of sugar.

    I look forward to seeing the data when its available to you. And I assure you I will bow to the data and cold hard facts if they are as you say they are.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  19. spemat

    spemat Newbie

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    I spent most of my life on Dexedrine and I had to get zirconium dental implants... they are hard but feel nothing like real teeth... and the debt sucks but I have a nice smile now... I had a tooth grinding issue after I went to bed... never in the day time
     
  20. Cwb20022

    Cwb20022 Palladium Member Donating Member

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    I have a question. Blue narritive is getting good rep for statements that have no evidence to back it. Since a mod has to approve all rep does this make these startment true. Just curious cause if this is in fact the case it's huge for the meth community. I have been very curious since I first read the post because this was my first time hearing it. If the rep is saying that its true do you have access to even a study thAt this has been tested? I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. I just really want to know cause this statement will change the way everyone perceives meth mouth and is bad news to anyone who's ever tried meth. If there ends up being no scientific evidence available shouldn't this statement just be considered a theory until there is? I know for me the rep makes the statements seem more believable seeing how this site has been accurate and very helpful to hundreds of thousands of people. But a theory is very different from a proven fact.