Jungle DMT?

Discussion in 'DMT and Ayahuasca' started by DonPeyote, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. DonPeyote

    DonPeyote Silver Member

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    I'm curious about so-called Jungle DMT.
    It is described as "Darker and Scarier" than pure DMT.
    Darker and Scarier can be had on ANY of the powerful Psychedlics.
    Isn't that simply the flip side of the "Clear Light"/Cosmic Consciousness/ Nirvanic trip?

    Sometimes ya gotta go thru hell to get to heaven....

    Has anyone met someone's pet Coyote who personally tried this mixed alkaloid Jungle Brew DMT, and can describe it?

    DP
     
  2. pankreeas

    pankreeas Gold Member

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    jungle dmt is the end product when you extract out the dmt with xylene I think it is, and then another stage with naptha to get all of the nndmt out. But don't quote me on this one.. It was some sort of tek and I only saw it briefly.. some also refer to it ask dark dmt.. I'd speculate that it's just a more potent / forgiving extraction.
     
  3. Neosapien

    Neosapien Silver Member

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    Jungle DMT is an unknown alk in Mimose Hostilis Rootbark soluable in xylene and not in naptha.
    It is somewhat like what SWIM hears 5MEO described tho I have never used 5MEO. It is active in tiny smoked doses like 5MEO and there are no visions, just that crazy tryptamine look to everything.
    I was not prepared for what was coming and the trip was indeed dark and scary. Swim will try again once the negative vibes have abated.
     
  4. DJ

    DJ Silver Member

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    To get jungle dmt

    SWIM basically followed marsofold's tek

    THEN I used hardware store brand xylene for a 4th pull per wine bottle and collected it.

    He let it airdry (and it took quite a long while (days)...)
    The results were very dirty orange crystals with specs of clearness throughout them..

    So to clean it up a bit...

    SWIM poured virgin (new out of the container) naptha over it so that just enough naptha covered the amount of dirty xylene spice, then heated it (by placing it into a plastic cup full of boiling water) so that all the dirty clearish/orange xylene spice crystals dissolved into the warm naptha puddle...
    then SWIM threw the melt into the freezer for a recrystallization..
    after 3 days in the freezer SWIM poured off all the naptha to reveal a cleaner orange spice that appeared as sheet formations of large clearer yet still orange crystals...


    the finished orange spice did the trick
     
  5. thinkcooper

    thinkcooper Titanium Member

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    Can SWIDJ elaborate on the "trick"?
     
  6. CrookedEye

    CrookedEye Palladium Member

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    I am uncovinced it's some mystery alkaloid, and not just some extra tannins and junk in the DMT.. I smoked the orange and white to even clear, and there is very little difference, to him (other than the harshness).. All these reports of dark trips, I think are brought about by the power of suggestion..
     
  7. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

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    As a chemist - who once got an F for arguing that chemically derived ascorbic acid was chemically identical to "natural" ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) in a "Food Awareness Course" - I must agree to ^^^.
     
  8. Neosapien

    Neosapien Silver Member

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    Why would it be active (really active) in smoked doses of around 10mg if it was just dirty DMT?
     
  9. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

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    Possibly the base material also contains 5-MeO-n,n-DMT? This is active at that range. But n,n-dimethyltryptamine is n,n-dimethyltryptamine. No dancing spiritual auras. No elves with good intentions. No blessings of the ruler of the cosmos. Pure and simple molecular chemistry.
     
  10. Neosapien

    Neosapien Silver Member

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    Yes, and NNDMT and 5MEO are soluable in naptha and heptane, and the material I smoked was definitely insoluable in both.
    Why is an as yet unidentified tryptamine in a little researched tropical plant such a far fetched notion?
    And when did I mention auras or elves or anything so ephemeral?
     
  11. freemynd

    freemynd Silver Member

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    Here's a post that came from http://divinemomentsoftruth.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14

     
    1. 2/5,
      Do NOT link to other forums: Read the rules!
      Jan 19, 2007
  12. CrookedEye

    CrookedEye Palladium Member

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    Ever see radio879's lab analysis report of jungle DMT? They failed to find an alternative alkaloid.. SWIM failed to experience this phenomena, so he doesn't necessarily claim that it's not possible, but that he is very skeptical.. Trip reports mean about as much to SWIM as a fish story.. SWIM rarely experiences anything remotely similar to many people, except for a very few extreme psychonauts..

    I don't want to rock the boat, but he requires some actual fact, especially seeing that the original person who claimed the experience, failed to find anything out of the ordinary, even with actual lab results (the reports were scanned and posted at the old DMT world, I believe..).. I believe his name was radio879, or something to that effect.. Any older specialty forums members around that can back SWIM up?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2007
  13. Neosapien

    Neosapien Silver Member

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    I remember radio879, but I didn't see that analysis.
    There's talk also that the substance is yureamine (sp?), an MAOI.
    Swim's friend's trip felt distinctly tryptamine-ish but could have been DMT potentiated by a MAOI. A recent psilo-huasca experience had a similar feel.
    But still, such a small dose?
     
  14. acolon_5

    acolon_5 Gold Member

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    This thread has peaked a friend of SWIM's interest...

    Due to a really bad batch of uncleanable spice he is in the middle of another extraction and will attempt to pull this mystery "jungle/dark/red spice" out with some Xylene after a few pulls with Naptha/Heptane. SWIM's friend has heard on another board that heat degrades/destroys most of the "red alkaloid"

    How would one go about testing something like this through a lab (gc/ms spectrometry). Would it cause a problem if SWIM's friend sent something to a lab for analysis?
     
  15. Neosapien

    Neosapien Silver Member

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    Sounds like a crapshoot to me.
    New alkaloid - you're a chemical pioneer.
    DMT or 5MEO - a knock on the door at 3 AM with a black van parked outside.
     
  16. Ellis D.

    Ellis D. Newbie

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    Whoa that sounds a lot like some of my bad mushroom trips. Even my cat looked like a robotic dead skelital feline creature...everything was dead, dry, and depressing, horrible horrible world to be in...

    For SWIM this is purely a state of mind, I have had trips similar to the one SWIM wrote above but I was able to change the deathly apearance of everything by changing his inner feeling, by meditating and silencing any negative thoughts or fears..

    I think this "DARK DMT" may be slightly chemical different or maybe something else is added to the N,N Dimethaltryptamine, but I think it is primarily the persons mentality and feeling during dosage of any psychadelic that effects (a lot) of the outcome and quality of the trip.
     
  17. acolon_5

    acolon_5 Gold Member

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    Most "Dark DMT" teks use Xylene or Toulene to extract, and once it has evaporated uses Naptha or Heptane to remove the DMT, what is left is the "mystery spice".

    Also the reports are showing that 1/2 to 1/3 of the dosage is necessary...this doesn't sound like a placebo effect, or set/setting, it sounds like something, a MAOI , or simply a new alkaloid is present. I will be attempting some extractions and bioassays.

    However, without access to a gc/ms, the best he can do is speculate.
     
  18. JDreaming

    JDreaming R.I.P. Gold Member R.I.P.

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    I had heard about one person selling "red jungle dmt" and thought it was just a goofy marketing angle for selling extracted DMT with an unusual hue to it. It seems strange that there would be an unknown alkaloid with potent effects... how many DMT analogues can possibly occur in a natural substance? I'm surprised some of them might still be completely unknown. I don't think it could be 5-MeO-DMT as that does not occur in M. Hostilis, and if it did it could be identified pretty easily.
     
  19. =SKA=

    =SKA= Silver Member

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    Well I've heard of it being said that Mimosa Hostilis, or at least serveral varieties of it, are active when taken ORALLY withou MAOIs. We all know how ineffective Oral DMT, 5-MeO-DMT and Bufotenine are without MAOIs except maybe giving you a serious nausae.
    I believe it was Jonathan Ott's experiment that showed that a simple cold water + lemon juice extraction of Mimosa Hostilis would be effective for an entheogenic experience. No MAOIs needed.

    This strange fact, that I've read about on erowid's notes by Professional Chemists/Physicians/Psychiatrists on Entheogenic experiments with Mimosa Hostilis, seems to make sense if one would link it to the idea of an unidentified, potent, entheogenic alkaloid present in Mimosa hostilis.

    Maybe this unidentified alkaloid, unlike DMT and it's analogues, is active orally? It would explain the Mimosa active without MAOIs-paradox.
     
    1. 3/5,
      Very interesting comments. Good addition to the discussion.
      Oct 29, 2007
  20. Entropymancer

    Entropymancer Silver Member

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    Aw, what the hell, I'll at least cross-post the GCMS analysis:





    IV.1 GCMS Analysis

    [pic1][pic2]
    Figure X. MS of DMT reference standard (left) and Brazilian M hostilis A/B extracted at pH 1 (right)
    (from Mambo Pachano's Entheogen Review Article - See Trout's Notes)​

    Let's first consider the case of a "clean" extraction. In the Entheogen Review, Mambo Pachano developed an "extreme condition hostilis extraction" and had GC/MS analysis performed on the resulting product alongside a DMT reference standard (see Figure X). The acidic extraction was perform with aqueous ethanol acidified to pH 1 with citric acid. The extract was evaporated, taken up in warm water, and defatted with xylene (presumably removing the jungle spice). The water was basified to pH 14 with hydroxide, extracted with toluene and the spice recovered by evaporation. "This has reliably produced a yellow waxy-crystalline massive solid that crushed to white powder."

    The DMT reference standard is very clean. There's an abundant molecular ion at 189.1 m/z, and a less abundant peak at 144.1 m/z indicating the loss of the dimethylamine moiety. I'm curious what the trace just above 400 m/z is since the same trace appears on the analysis of the extracted sample, but it's likely of no particular consequence.

    The extracted sample also appears to be fairly clean. Extrememly clean when we consider that it was obtained by evaporation instead of freeze-precipitation or recrystallization, and using toluene, which is known to be less selective than the usual alkane solvents. There is a small impurity (abundance ~2) at 205.1 m/z, which is most likely accounted for by DMT N-oxide. This helps to substantiate the idea that the yellow oil is DMT N-oxide, since the product was collected by evaporation, and was described as "a yellow waxy-crystalline" material.



    Next we’ll consider a crude extract of the “jungle” alkaloids. This analysis was communicated by Radio879 from the Nook. In his own words, "I think this was the one where I did use xylene instead of naphtha, but I did not wash it with naphtha... In that sample it looks like there's 86% DMT, then 4 other unknown compounds." See Figure X. There actually only appear to be three unidentified compounds in this spectrum. I assume that the "fourth compound" is the peak at 144.1 m/z, which actually comes from DMT (see above note on the reference standard). For all three of the unidentified peaks, I believe I can propose some reasonable assignments.

    [pic3]
    Figure X. Radio879's GCMS of an unpurified xylene pull, extraction process unknown.​


    130.1 m/z

    This peak had me mystified for the longest time. Too small to be a tryptamine; barely large enough enough to be an indole. But in reading through Trout's Notes A5, I saw that one of the biggest issues they were concerned with in the extraction process was trying to eliminate an alkaloid called "skatole" (see Figure X).

    [pic4]
    Figure X. Skatole: 3-methylindole​

    Skatole, whose chemical name is 3-methylindole, is a white crystalline compound which turns brown over time, and has been described as "mildly toxic". It has been shown to cause pulmonary edema in some lower mammals, apparently targetting Clara cells, which are the major site of cytochrome P450 enzymes in the lungs. These enzymes convert skatole to a reactive intermediate, 3-methyleneindolenine, which damages cells by forming protein adducts (Miller et al). It is also added to cigarettes as a flavoring agent.

    I have been unable to find any source that explicitly verifies skatole as a known compound in M hostilis, but it certainly seems conceivable. It could explain why people sometimes get a material that looks like spice and smells like spice, but lacks the effects of DMT when smoked. Regardless, the 130.1 m/z molecular ion corresponds perfectly with a methylated indole; This issue requires further analysis to confirm the identification, but it seems entirely plausable. Especially if Pachano can share his source that identifies skatole as a component of M hostilis, I am satisfied with the identification of this peak as a methylindole.


    205.1 m/z

    This is the same peak that was seen as a trace component of the "clean" extract's GC/MS. Being exactly 16 m/z higher than DMT's molecular ion immediately suggests that this could be an oxide of DMT (the most reasonable place being at the tertiary amine). Since the sample was obtained by evaporation and not cleaned with alkanes, we would expect some of the yellow oxidation product to be present. The issue requires further study be put cleanly to rest, specifically someone running GC/MS and NMR on the purified yellow oil. Until then, I am fairly comfortable with the assignment of this peak as DMT N-oxide.

    [pic5]
    Figure X. DMT N-Oxide​

    DMT N-oxide and DMT have been shown to enzymatically interconvert in lower mammals.


    350.1 m/z

    This one is a doozy, and is the primary evidence in suggesting that what people have been isolating may be a breakdown product of yuremamine. The peak is substantial, less abundant than the proposed methylindole, but more abundant than the DMT oxide. It's substantially heavier than DMT, but also very substantially lighter than yuremamine. And besides, it doesn't hardly seem possible that yuremamine would survive the extraction process.

    But I got to thinking: When the yuremamine is degraded during the extraction, it's not as though it just disappears. And unless it loses the ethylamine moiety, the breakdown product still ought to be amenable to acid/base extraction. Some quick calculations indicated that the loss of either hydroxylated phenyl group could get the molecular mass in the ballpark of 350 m/z. And there's that handy hydroxyl adjascent to each of them that could participate in the degradation chemistry. In the end, I came up with two plausible degradation products which would give rise to a molecular ion at 350.1 m/z. Unfortunately, the peak is not abundant enough to analyze its fragmentation pattern.

    [pic6][pic7]
    Figure X. A couple proposed breakdown products of yuremamine, both would have molecular ion at 350.1 m/z

    [pic8]
    Figure X. Yuremamine​

    It's also worthwhile at this point to discuss what we would expect to see if the jungle spice were in fact yuremamine. Yuremamine has a molecular ion at 477.1 m/z. This peak has been clearly absent from every attempt to analyze the jungle spice. It also was not seen in any of the analytical work on M hostilis root bark or jurema wine that was conducted during the 20th century. This has led to the speculation that yuremamine is subject to degradation under most extraction conditions, particularly under high temperatures or alkaline environments. Below is the LC/MS spectrum obtained by Vepsäläinen et al.

    [pic9]
    Figure X.GCMS of Yuremamine (from Isolation and Characterization of Yuremamine)​



    Finally, we have a more recent report of GC/MS analysis run on the red spice by an acquaintance of Burnt:

    This is a confounding result. The material was a red crystalline material isolated based on its insolubility in hexane, which certainly sounds like jungle spice. We would expect very little of the material would be DMT due to the hexane wash, but it was still the primary peak in the sample.

    There are a handful of possibilities, most of which Burnt himself pointed out. It's possible that the material analyzed was not the same material that others are calling jungle spice; this seems unlikely since it matches the same physical description and was isolated in the same fashion. The material was also reportedly stored for several months prior to analysis, so it's possible that the compound(s) of interest degraded during that time. Or for whatever reason, the red component may not be amenable to GC/MS; this in itself would be strange for a chemical that is reported to be biologically active when vaporized.

    There are two other possibilities, if we take the spectra at face value and assume that DMT is overwhelmingly the main component in the red spice. The first of these possibilities is that the red coloration comes from a biologically inactive tannin, and the activity of the red spice is solely the result of DMT. I don't consider this possibility to be very likely, based on the wealth of experience reports reporting breakthroughs on significantly smaller doses than DMT could provide.

    The other possiblity, assuming that DMT is overwhelmingly the main component in the red spice (which I'm not necessarily convinced of), is that the trace impurity responsible for the red discoloration is biologically active and accounts for the reported effects of smoking red "jungle spice". If this is the case, it could either be acting as an agonist in its own right, and adding its effects to the effects of the DMT, or it could be potentiating the DMT in some fashion. Since no trace components were identified in this particular analysis, it is impossible to speculate further.
     

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    1. 4/5,
      Thanks Entropymancer...they're sometimes a little slow over here. Don't mind them though. Acolon_5
      Apr 4, 2008