Drug info - Kavalactone habituation

Discussion in 'Kava-Kava' started by snapper, Mar 18, 2007.

  1. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    I am actually surprised by this, but it feels like SWIM's having a strong GBL rebound effect from stopping kava. I have been using kava kava extract to sleep regularly for a while (probably nightly for about 2 weeks). SWIM's dose of the extract powder has gone up quite a bit, and I was worried that I was using too much and had developed a tolerance. Since stopping, it feels like I am experiencing a dopamine rebound like when I would go too long with GBL without stopping. Really nervous, with agitation, anxiety, and this really distinct feeling which I get from nothing else.
    I had been reading a while back that there has been a growing problem with addiction to kava in Australian aboriginal populations. Here's one link discussing the subject -

    https://drugs-forum.com/threads/26523

    I think this is the only population currently abusing kava. The part about hypertension and collapse in heavy users is particularly interesting, since this is a common problem with heavy GBL use due to dopamine rebound.
    SWIM once thought of kava as a benign and subtly effective drug, but after reading about it and trying some effective extracts, I am finding it not so benign and not so subtle.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2007
  2. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    I think Kava-Kava is a subtle but enjoyable drug. Kavalactones however are a powerful drug and should not be underestimated. We are talking about drugs that affect GABA after all.
     
  3. wOrship

    wOrship Silver Member

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    Interesting, I thought this might just be him as I have been skirting around the edges of habituation to various 'usual suspects' for years now (alcohol, OTC painkillers etc). Swim thought this was just a part of his personality and just luck he has got away with it up to now, but has the tendancies.

    Swim first discovered decent Kava extracts about a year or so ago, really enjoyed the effects, I had a certain amount of (almost crippling at times) social anxiety and when I noticed that this almost totally disappeared when Kava'd, something that the doctors couldn't do! I was very impressed indeed.

    Then I noticed mixing very strong blue lotus and blue lily infused wine taken alongside kava completely and totally KO'd the anxiety and paranoia that MJ tends to bring with her, I was like a dog with two dicks!
    I was even getting the amazing euphoria and fits of giggles from MJ again, just like the first few times he met her.. Needless to say, he started using Kava on a daily basis really quite quickly.

    Swim soon started to notice a craving when he ran out of Kava, nothing spectacularly awful, certainly nothing like the terrible Withdrawals many forum users have to contend with, but there certainly appears to be a definate craving present.

    To try and explain it, the nearest swim can think of is that to him it is not unlike what he feels when he has run out of cigarettes and cannot get any until morning. An edgy sort of a feeling that is easy enough to deal with, but you would rather not have to - Swim deals mainly by trying to not run out of Kava :D when weighed up it is worth it to swim for the beneficial effects he gets from Kava.

    I have also not discounted the possibility that it is purely psychological

    W
     
  4. Apostacious

    Apostacious Silver Member

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    I am partially bumping this in light of the other thread I bumped, and also because I would like to see if SomeoneWhoIsn'tSnapper can provide a little more background info. I am most interested in hearing whether SWISnapper had any prior gabaergic dependencies around the time of 3/07. Additionally, I am curious if SWISnapper had any other dependence issues around that time too (perhaps with kratom, or anything else that would cause a similar reaction, or at least potentiate kavalactone withdrawal). Further, can SWISnapper remember the amount of kavalactones SWISnapper was ingesting? Finally, my last inquiry is whether SWISnapper is certain that the withdrawal was dopaminergic in nature, and not gabaergic?

    I appreciate any feedback whatsoever. My pet rat Domingo is a nervous wreck when he experiences unexpected withdrawal syndromes and finds it harder to get through his little maze. At times like that, he even gives up on looking for the cheese on the other end of the maze! :)
     
  5. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Yes. Snapper's acquaintance's pet ferrets had a bad withdrawal from valium / rohypnol about 10 years before and as mentioned GHB. Also had one episode of delerium tremens after a 1 year long drinking binge. All of these had similarities but the DTs had visual and auditory hallucinations. The benzo withdrawals were worse than but very similar to GHB and kava. The ferrets are not sure if it is clear that these withdrawals are all from the gaba system since all of the above mentioned cause a dopamine rebound. Gaba drugs cause prolactin spikes which prevent dopamine release until they wear off, after which it comes flooding out. Hence overstimulation, very high blood pressure, skin crawling, etc. Ferrets did use kratom during kava use, but not with the benzo, alcohol or GHB and had no other concurrent withdrawals. Ferrets would use both straight kava in a blender as well as extracts, the former in large amounts (several tablespoons per brew) and grams of extract thrown in to potentiate. This was done several times a day.
    The ferrets know nothing about what is happening at the level of their receptors but do know that the bad effects of benzo, alcohol, ghb and kava when withdrawing all have strong similarities. Barbituates too, BTW though the ferrets tapered those and suffered only mild withdrawals (going back > 20 years now..).
    Hope that helps. A lot of the known pharmacology of alcohol shows the exact same dopamine rebound as GHB which is why ferrets wake up 6 hours after a drunk and cannot sleep after that.
     
  6. Apostacious

    Apostacious Silver Member

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    Thank you very much for sharing your acquaintance's pet ferret's experience with kava withdrawal. This is one of the few mentions of kava/kavalactone withdrawal I have seen after a long time of searching, and is very good for people that might be more sensitive to a withdrawal syndrome to know. This certainly offers some evidence to counter the general assertion that kava is miraculously devoid of dependency and tolerance issues! Domingo was starting to notice something odd with kava, that he would notice with benzos after the kava wore off (a general rotten mood with intense anxiety), and he has recently had a flare-up in benzo p.a.w.s., nothing too major though. It did seem too good to be true that kava was an anxiolytic that Domingo could take without any worry of problems down the road, as long as Domingo kept his doses low to avoid kava demorpathy. Do you by chance remember the duration of withdrawal?

    Again, thank you very much for responding to all of my annoyingly worded questions. :vibes:
     
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