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Treatment - Kratom Addiction with Suboxone

Discussion in 'Opiate addiction' started by magister, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. magister

    magister Silver Member

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    I didn't know where else to post this. Perhaps because Kratom is legal no body thinks you can get addicted. I have heard that some users of other opiates have tried to kick the habit by switching to Kratom, so perhaps there are some in this forum who know about this. Point is that although I have done other opiods like codeine, poppy tea, methadone and heroin, these were mostly just isolated episodes, however it did develop a taste for this class of substances. However the other classes, mostly weed kept SWIM occupied. However when I got busted and narrowly escaped jail, SWIM decided to look for legal things. At first the most available legal thing was alcohol, and this was a problem for awhile, however the hang-over was so terrible, that GHB (before illegalised in '03?), phenibut, and finally Kratom were much better substances for SWIM to use. I could relax at the end of the day, sleep well, and wake up without a hang over.

    I had apretty stressful job and started getting back pains which kept him using Kratom. This kept up for 3 years, occasionally running out I would get anxiety, and drink alcohol to make up for it. At this point the Kratom was only in the evenings, once a day. Withdrawals were managable, but were still no fun. Then about a year ago, SWIM lost his job, then I was around the house and started doing Kratom upon waking, soon it was a 3-4 times a day habit. Some days I would take Kratom all day just chasing the ideal high. Now when SWIM runs low the anxiety and withdrawal symptoms are worse. They start about about 6 hours but don't get intense until about 12. Kratom seems to half a fast high-life.

    I want to be free of this, but the withdrawals are too scary now, last time SWIM ran out was a few months ago. SWIM guzzled hard booze and took Iboprophen/codeine (12.8mg) Nurophen tablets. Actually he thinks he came close to alcohol poisoning and the amount of Iboprophen from the tablets was not health. I went 48 hours and finally the parcel with the Kratom arrived. I had to order as he had not option as the withdrawals decended upon him. I started taking the Kratom but was still dealing with the poisoning of the alcohol. I didn't know what to do, the feelings were too intense, I don't think he can cope with the withdrawals, he is worried he will turn to whatever he can and drink himself to death. SWIM hates alcohol, it is just the only thing he could get.

    I want to get off Kratom, he has recently read about Suboxone. I am hoping this will help him. First off he will not have to worry about parcels arriving in the post, he will be able to travel and visit relatives without having to eye out holiday sized bags of Kratom leaf which he hope customs does not mistake for something illegal...Some of SWIM's relatives are in Isreal where they totally search all your bags. To be caught overseas with your relatives who don't know about your addiction and the border patrol to seize your Kratom would be a nightmare I think, so I don't travel, and hasn't seen any relatives since SWIM's addiction got more severe 18 months ago.

    With Suboxone, I would have a prescription and could live life again. The only thing is I am not sure he can get Suboxone from the outpatient self-referral clinic he plans to see. He doesn't want to talk to his doctor as then the matter would be on his Health computer file. But there is a confidental outreach centre nearby, I am not sure they will give Suboxone to a Kratom user, since Kratom is not a scheduled substance. so I have to be careful, in some ways it would be easier if I was addicted to a standard opiod pill because then the medical establishment would know how to treat it, but I have read about the receptor chemistry and believes that Suboxone will also be effective for KRatom addiction, there is no support for Kratom addicts because no one wants to hear about it, they just want Kratom to stay legal, and I agree but I know there is another side to the story that is not discussed on the forums.

    Anyhow I will phone the centre confidentially and ask about Kratom and Suboxone, if the person answering says they don't know it, sorry no Suboxone for Kratom, it has to be illegal, then I will go into the centre and just say he has been getting codeine from cold water extraction and has got addicted to it.

    Any thoughts, advice, comments, please share them....thanks for reading...magister

    magister added 20 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

    I would also like to add that beside the Subuxone that I am considering asking for a couple other things. One of the main reasons I takes substances is that I find it hard to wind down at the end of the day and get in bed and go to sleep. I am restless and starts thinking lots of thoughts which keeps SWIM from sleeping. So I would like to ask for something to help him sleep. Also I have been noticing how depressed he is since this addiction started, it first hit him when he experienced withdrawals, how boring and dull life is, but then even when he had plenty of Kratom I feel bored with life and generally stuck in life without meaning. I have read about various anti-depressants and thinks that Bupropion (wellbutrin) to be the best and could even help with his tobacco habit.

    Is it reasonable to ask for a sleeping tablet and antidepressants when kicking a drug addiction? Anyone on this forum have experience with this. I think that sleeping tablets
    do get prescribed as I read a thread of a SWIM who got Zopiclone, however I am not sure about the antidepressants. I know that he wants to be completely drug free but feels he is stuck and not motivated, if he had a more positive outlook he could get up and start living and then could do excercise and get off all of the pills.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2010
  2. ex-junkie

    ex-junkie Palladium Member

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    i think there is no need for sleeping tablets, when you can just take drowsy antihistamines which have always been more effective for a FULL nights sleep for swim. I used to abuse sleeping tablets, and they only worked for about 4 hours of sleep at a time, which just made her take more than prescribed.

    its perfectly okay to ask for antidepressants and sleeping tablets when coming off of drugs. in fact, thats the smart way to do it. just be careful because antidepressants can make things worse in my experience, they are useful for short term, but can be quite harmful in the long term if you take drugs whilst on them.

    without using drugs on top, swims had good results from antidepressants for 2-6 months, then has noticed she doesnt need them anymore, or have made her worse.

    in those situations stopping them abruptly (which isnt recommended btw), actually made her come good.

    be safe. :)
     
  3. magister

    magister Silver Member

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    SWIM thanks ex-junkie for the advice and confirms I have no intention of doing other drugs while on anti-depressants, in fact he is reminded of his first high school experiences with LSD, back then a friend of I was prescribed and taking Lithium. None of my crowd of friends knew this guy was taking Lithium but they continued to take LSD and for 4-6 weeks it was every weekend with larger dosages, as well as other psychedelics like shrooms. I saw this friend slowly lose his mind, whatever than means, just that the spirit and animation left, and a dour expressionless glum set in.

    As for drowsy histamines, does ex-junkie mean Promethazine? SWIM realises sleeping tablets might be addictive as anything that has helped him sleep usually worked by reducing anxiety....in fact I feel he has slept so much during the last 18 months of Kratom addiction that is tired of living in the dream world and experiencing such boredom in waking life. in fact SWIM attempted to reduce Kratom in december buy taking speed, although it did work, when the speed ran out, it would always lead SWIM back to Kratom, in fact SWIM recalls it was initially the use of speed and E's at all night raves that developed SWIM's craving for pills that would cushion the come down.

    Any other SWIM's who have had trouble with Kratom addiction? I know, wikipedia says
    "Kratom is mildly addictive and withdrawal is possible after frequent heavy use. While rarely severe or disabling, withdrawal symptoms can include depression, fatigue, restlessness, teary eyes, and insomnia. It is comparable to morphine withdrawal in character and caffeine withdrawal in severity."

    but probably due to my excessive use it seems a bit more sever than caffeine.
     
  4. smegmachilles

    smegmachilles Newbie

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    I saw a news report about the dangers of kratom and in it, a doctor prescribed Suboxone for a patient. To SWIM this sounded like telling someone to use chewing tobacco in order to break a chewing gum habit. In any case, SWIM googled this practice and found this post. I have read a fair amount of information about kratom since he started taking it a little over a year ago and has never read an account of such severe problems with kratom as You has had. I am wondering if Suboxone worked for You and if You feels as though the experience of kratom withdrawal was due to physical dependence or if it was a psychological dependence. SWIM hopes You feels much better now and would love to hear about how things turned out.
     
  5. Ozman2010

    Ozman2010 Silver Member

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    A Suboxone program was the only way that I could stop kratom. From Day 1/Dose #1 I was able to cease my kratom use totally - and no withdrawal. No excruciating RLS & restless arms, no insomnia, no diarrhea and no muscle aches. The daily dosing of Suboxone prevented all of it. I'm now on my third week without any kratom. One of the best things about Suboxone is that I can work on it. Since Day 1 of Sub therapy I haven't missed any time off of work. Suboxone doesn't 'feel like' kratom but it is an excellent replacement for it. I just take my single daily dose once each morning and go on about my day. Well, I attend weekly group therapy sessions (it's part of the program) but that's about all.
     
  6. Jcrypto25

    Jcrypto25 Newbie

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    While I just started taking Kratom for a few weeks reason being to ease the withdrawal symptoms from opiates. I learned about Kratom by reading these here message boards. I've been using Norco 10/325 the past 4 years. Heard Kratom was the best and it was all natural no chemicals. I actually think Kratom has A stimulant like effect but I've been taking various forms of it. It's like a stimulant but with opiate like effects very weird feeling. I've also been drinking more got drunk last night it's been a long time since I've been drunk. And yes I've also been wanting to do speed cocaine and xanax. Haven't but been wanting so bad.
     
  7. Ozman2010

    Ozman2010 Silver Member

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    Well, yeah, I basically used kratom for the "stimulstion" and it"s unique euphoric anti-depressant effect. But I"m so glad to bevrid of the krstom monkey now. No more havingvto stop every few hours & figure out a discreet way to get my "dose" of it. Suboxone (as Opioid Replacement Therapy) has freed me of that. Just one dose of Suboxone every 24 hrs. and that is it. No cravings or urges for kratom either.
     
  8. HyperMobileZebra

    HyperMobileZebra Silver Member

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    For anyone new who encounters this thread - it has kind of been resurrected and the use of "SWIM" and "you" and other variants has been banned from the forum for some time now (and makes it kind of hard to follow).

    I know it's kind of hard to realize it's banned bc people read old posts and then use it; I went ahead and posted in this thread because it's one of those threads that uses it and people new to DF may not look at the dates and realize that there has been a change.
     
  9. tmanspecial

    tmanspecial Silver Member

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    Live thread! LIVE!!!
     
  10. tmanspecial

    tmanspecial Silver Member

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    No seriously, I'm very interested in the use of very low dose suboxone for Kratom withdrawal.
    It may not be present for some people but the withdrawal is very real for others. Im days out from starting a taper with it once I decide my method completely.
    And my definition of "real" is if you have to miss work for multiple days or can't take care of your pets or kids while in full symptoms then its real and its potential should be respected the same as opioids.
    For me this is the case.


    I'm interested in the experiences of people using sub and what mg was sufficient to be comfortable but not high while quitting a heavy Kratom habit (daily all day dosing had me waking up sick after 6 weeks)

    It has to be low, My best guess has been somewhere around .5 to 1 mg (which is already an 80% completed taper for many people tapering slowly from worse habits and higher, normal inductions) followed by reductions of 25% every 4-6 days until down to zero or skipping days at .25-.1

    various rapid tapers like a six day 2,1,1,1,.5,.5 or a 1,1,1,1, then reduce .25 every two days ending at 14 days

    The last one that seemed possible especially for Kratom is one large dose at the end of day 1 , which in this instance could be like 3-5 mg then riding out the halflife to day 5 or 6, then if necessary dosing .25 a day or two...



    Either for maintenance or for detox, it would be valuable information to easily have come up in a google search, in addition to the what amount of time is needed before inducing to avoid precipitated wd. The experiences I've read range anywhere from 6 hours up to 16 and are conflicting averaging at 12 hours.
    Some users reported a hot flash followed by suboxones effects, others 1-3 hours of sickness after 10 hours induction.

    There's simply not an equivalent amount of info as there is for opioids which I find surprising because I loved Kratom and there's no question that people would be better off on it than any opiate including sub. Yet The answer I commonly get is, Kratom should be tapered and sub is too strong!
    But when you consider the long half life of sub and the short half life of Kratom tapering off of a low enough induction dose of sub makes more sense to me than trying to taper something that lasts 6 hours and is unregulated. Am I wrong here? couldnt the dose just be low enough? Does anybody have any experience with this?
     
  11. outlawtorn777

    outlawtorn777 Newbie

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    To anyone in this thread reading. I have been previously addicted to all sorts of opioids. I have been taking Kratom for almost 4 years with other prescription opioids mixed in here and there. When I say taking I mean all day every day if I go 4 hours without it I get severe WDs. the WDs for Kratom for me at least are far far worse than any other drug they last for a long time and come on very quickly. I recently started taking Suboxone I started at 8mg. this has been a life saver not only has it saved me money but I don't need to find a way to take Kratom every 4 hours and spend upwards of $500 weekly on kratom/ other opioids to keep me from feeling sick. this may not seem the norm but for me Kratom has ruined my life the pain I feel when i do not have it is worse than any other WD on the planet and I have gone through so many different types over the years. So... for me at least Suboxone has made it easy for me to quit it lasts for a long time and costs me next to nothing. I legally go to a dr. who I pay a $0 copay and my 1 week prescription is only $25 the dr. made it easy i was in I was out I don't have to go every day. I just started my journey so far so good. I plan to be completely off of everything within 2 weeks. if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask me I am here to help. Kratom is a silent killer I know all to well and have been told my multiple doctors that I may have one of the most severe kratom addictions. I would really love to help anyone who has any questions on the subject.
     
  12. tmanspecial

    tmanspecial Silver Member

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    Please come back and keep us posted about your transition to suboxone.

    I do believe that as long as kratom is legal and around that this topic will only continue to crop up and that threads like these need to be available.

    That said I cannot go without advising great, great caution with suboxone.

    I have since gotten off of the kratom, I was going to go the suboxone route, but this is day 34 for me cold turkey.

    I can only imagine and have a good idea of what 4 years on kratom was probably like. It's withdrawals for me were very real and just as comparable to any opioid particularly the physical symptoms that the anxiety seemed to amplify in a different way that other drugs.

    I have a suggestion for you to look into though. It has to do with using suboxone to quit entirely. You mentioned being off of everything within 2 weeks. This is also why I would like to ask that you return here and keep us posted on your transition.

    I assume that your aim is to have a seamless and realtibely painless taper down, no?

    Every person I have talked to that inducted suboxone at or above 2-4 mg daily has needed significantly more time to taper than this.

    I found a taper plan for it on another forum supported by hundreds of users who used the plan and are still present today helping people use the same plan.
    You may have read it already, "Roberts subxone taper"
    If you google this you'll find it on another forum. I hate telling people like us what to do as I know how it feels like to me, that said, having just recently been in the grips of physical dependence myself and then reading that you have been on this for 4 years I have so much empathy your situation and know that subxone must feel like more than a godsend, especially at 8 mg.
    I strongly advise you look into the plan, and into this online community I mentioned, they are a close se knit group of people who's single purpose is this very topic. if it is your intention to get this done soon, doing it right, ONCE, is something that many want.

    the reason I say all of that is that for quitting and from r kratom purposes, many will say that 8 mg is very high. Every person is different and I am not a doctor, but that would be my opinion as well.

    It is also my opinion based on experience with these addictionologists that hey over prescribe subxone, many of whom knowingly induct at a dosage that they know will take as long as a year to comfortably taper off of.

    In summary, knowing the pain of withdrawal personally, as much as I usually would say heed a physicians advice, in his case I am going to say this from the bottom of my heart,
    what I would do in your shoes is:

    A.
    Get DOWN to as low a dose as possible on the sub as soon as possible. With sub It will take three whole days to know how much a reduction in dose will affect somebody
    But for me I would get that sh** down as fast as humanly possible within reasonable comfort. As close to 1.5 or max 2mg per day.

    B.
    Formulate a plan on reducing your daily dose of sub by 25% every 4th and sometimes if need be 5th day depending on comfort.so that means how many mg of sub you will need total for your entire taper.
    Ie. With this type of taper, if you were at 2 mg, you would need somewhere around 6 weeks worth of sub. do the math on dropping 25% every four days. Make sure you have enough. This has been the most effective drop timeline that I have found through other's experiences.

    C.
    Research Roberts taper plan and find the experience reports and forums of Robert taking people through this taper.


    I say all of this because of the hell i have read and have experienced myself from subxone.

    If quitting is the intention. That means withdrawal in some form. So in my experience,
    that for me boils down to:
    Kratom was extremely deceiving, cloaked as being helpful, and withdrawal very rough for me.
    Subxone came in the same sheeps clothing and yet it was worse.

    This alone was the reason I jumped CT from kratom this last time.

    Much love and luck be to you out there.
     
  13. outlawtorn777

    outlawtorn777 Newbie

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    Thank you for the advice.

    so I was instructed to use my tabs 2-3x daily at 8mg.

    I have been able to already to go to 1 tab every 30 hours or so. I could probably go longer but have not tried yet.

    My plan is to go to 4mg per 24hours for 4 days then 2mg every day for 4 days then quit.

    I may even try to go 48 hours starting from 2 pm today and see if I can make it that long.

    I do not want to be on suboxone more than 2 weeks I do not want it to build up in my system. I also do not want to go back to the clinic it was just a nightmare. I do appreciate the advice I will be looking into it and will also keep posting updates.

    I also have a reserve of valium and colonodine on hand and some gabbapentin (all my own prescriptions) so I will be using these to assist in a fast taper.
     
  14. tmanspecial

    tmanspecial Silver Member

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    Gotcha,

    My experience going on and off sub over and over became clear when I finally started reading what other people were going through trying to taper it.

    For me being on anything above 4 mg for longer than 4 ish days was where the, I guess, "chronological tolerance" started building if that makes sense. So much so that any drop after being on it for more than 4 days at higher than 4 mg, especially at 8, was very uncomfortable for me. More uncomfortable than a drop from 8 to 4 or 4 to 2 would have been earlier on, say on day 3.
    I found out later that others had the same issue and had found a work around. It was inducting lower. which of course is useless information to somebody like me that had been inducted at 8 mg 2x a day by a reassuring physician and had been taking 8 - 16 mg per day for over a week. knowing this sooner I could have chipped off of that 8mg dose in the first week and gotten it down to 1 or 2 mg, a level at which that "chronological tolerance", had less of an impact. Live and learn.

    When I hear people that remind me of the position I was in, I want to jump through my screen to them because of the hell I went through with suboxone.

    The 4 day rule was vital for me though after learning it. It meant that If I felt fine on the second or third day after a drop, to just wait until day 4, which is when the withdrawal would usually hit me, if it didn't, I was clear to make another drop.