Addiction - Kratom Addiction

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by drewcil, Nov 5, 2006.

  1. drewcil

    drewcil Silver Member

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    Well...to make a long story as short as possible..I had back surgery about 2 years ago, before the surgery I was prescribed hydrocodone's...I didn't even know what they did when given them. Anyway, as the story goes...I eventually became very addicted, going up to about 15 pills a day of 10/500's. This basically ruined my senior year of college, as I failed out (never failed a class in 3 years previously). It ruined my social life, as I pushed everyone away and even treated my significant other like they weren't a person. At close to rock bottom, I learned of Kratom. The "miracle" had come, or so was thought.

    To make another long story short...after a year of hydro's, I went to doctor and told what was going on. I had researched a lot, and found out about kratom. The doctor was all for it, as it was "legal" and effective. As another year has passed, I have been on between 50-70 grams of kratom every single day. Again, the same thing happened, just more so. Friends were pushed away even more, I am very active within exercise/fitness/nutrition, and though I would do everything having to do with that, that was the only thing I would do. Every other time of the day I sat in a room with the blinds closed, surfing the internet, and watching tv. I again failed out of college, and didn't really care. As long as I had the kratom and a place to hang out, that was ALL that mattered. I showed no emotion towards ANYTHING, including my significant other who had just about enough of it. Many of my friends said I was very different, and wasn't even close to their old self. The other day I saw a best friend that is as close as a brother. I hadn't seen them in a while, and the next day, this friend called me asking what was wrong, and why I was so quiet and seemed so unattached from. This person could tell that just seeing me for an hour. Through this whole thing, my relationship with my significant other was just going down and down, the whole time me thinking it was all the other person's fault. Just recently (3 days ago) I realized that a life lead like this, was not a life at all. I decided just like that to quit kratom cold turkey.

    It's 48 hours now with NO kratom whatsoever. My withdrawals are VERY VERY bad. Crying uncontrollably for no reason, awful chills (these have been the worst so far), muscleaches...these are the worst ones. As for the psychological side, I have been "chemically enhanced" for over 2 years now. I feel like nothing is enjoyable anymore without having kratom. I feel like I need it to survive daily life. Everyone around I am VERY supportive, as I have very good friends, and a significant other who is the happiest ever now that the kratom is gone. I am feeling like I used to feel, besides these side effects. I will go out and do things again, just to get out, I will do ANYTHING to pass the time, as the days have dragged by incredibly slow these last couple days.

    I have done a lot of research lately, and has read different opinions everywhere. Some people say that withdrawal lasts 3-4 days, some say 3-4 weeks. I know the psychological part will take a while, and I know how irresponsibly this substance was used.

    I have purchased some Phenibut, hoping that it will help out a little bit, and maybe put me in a bit of a better mood. A number of nootropics will be purchased as well such as ALCAR, l-tyrosine, vinpocetine, rhodiola, and bacopa, and possibly a couple others. I have also been downing caffeine like it's water lately.

    If anyone wants to share a similar experience, or has any good methods to help with psychological and physical withdrawals, it would be greatly appreciated. Sorry, this is so long, I just had a lot to get off my chest, and couldn't stop typing.

    Thanks from me
     
  2. Forthesevenlakes

    Forthesevenlakes Platinum Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    This sounds like a very difficult experience for you, but he will be better for it. Emotions will come back over time, and You will start feeling human again. However this may take longer than the physical withdrawals last. I am guessing that the withdrawals themselves will last no longer than 10 days, probably subsiding around 7. You should read up on the other threads pertaining to opiate/opioid addiction since I guesses that they would be VERY similar to kratom addiction. Also get some loperamide. I have a feeling that will be useful. Please keep us posted as to your progress and if you have any specific questions after checking out those other threads.
     
  3. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    50-70 grams a day? That is an enormous pile of Kratom. I have never read about anyone doing those amounts. You is writing about unexplored teritory, so all one can do is guess and estimate upon experiences from members which have done lower amounts of kratom.
     
  4. Nagognog2

    Nagognog2 Iridium Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    you's experience, no matter how bad, is indeed very valuable to the knowledge-base. Do continue to post about you.
     
  5. drewcil

    drewcil Silver Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    I am very appreciative of you's posts. The first one was very helpful to SWIM. 50-70 grams is a lot, and I didn't even think twice about it. I was in the mindset that everyone who abused kratom was taking that large of an amount, and it was "no big deal". I have taken some phenibut today, and is actually feeling a little bit better. Phenibut has had a calming effect, and the chills, muschlaces have been reduced, and the crying has subsided. I don't really like phenibut that much, but feels that if it is having this effect, that it may be helpful for the next couple of week. Again, SWIM thanks everyone for posting and helping out.
     
  6. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    There isn't much that's OTC that will help, though if you start again, you might want to taper the dose a bit before quitting. Most people use 5-10 g in a day. I have been a daily user for a while and rarely exceeds this dose. I have not withdrawn from this yet, but has from heroin several times, and so knows the worst to expect. As with either drug, just keep at it and do not give in once you start or you;ll have to go through it all over again...
    Phenibut does help with anxiety, but don't use too much as it has a nasty hangover and lasts a long time.
     
  7. Hlucn8

    Hlucn8 Gold Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    I have three herniated disks and was on chronic opiate pain therapy for some time. My actually too embarrassed to post how much I was using, suffice it to say that 15 Mg tabs of hydro would have been one modest dose to him. He would also distill and inject his duragesic patches, injecting enough at one time, (near the end), that he guessed would probably killed a hoarse, literally. If you check swims posts, I am always harping on addictive properties of these substances.
    I do have one piece of advice that is crucial to long term success. Now that physical addiction has Set in, You will be very susceptible to the physical addiction again. When swim first started, he could go on week long binges without noticing any with drawls. Now, if he goes on a three day binge, he notices very uncomfortable withdraws for a few days after. It took some time to learn self control so as to not get trapped again. If You can leave this lover altogether, it would probably be best, (but swim loves her sooo much!).
    It is helpfully to remember what has happened to swiys brain. The base of the brain contains the opiate receptors. They were created to accept endogenous endorphins so the brain can cope with pain. Endorphins closely resemble the opiate molecule, so opiates can be called "exogenous endorphins". When one takes these substances into the body, they lodge in the opiate receptors, mimicking the bodies own endorphins, producing, among other things, euphoria. It literally makes the Brain look at pain differently. This is also true of emotional pain. Over time, the brain realizes that it is producing too many endorphins and begins to shut down it's own production, much in the same way the testes do in the presence of exogenous testosterone. After even longer time, in an effort to achieve balance, the brain actually begins to grow more receptors in the centers being affected,(mainly the mu). This is the secret of tolerance, and why I was able to do ungodly amounts without dying. My brain had literally changed to accommodate. When one stops all of the sudden, the brain recoils. It has more receptors than the original design had called for, but even less natural chemical to plug into the receptors than before the cycle of addiction began. Emotional and physical pain are experienced by the brain as a result. In time, the brain will realize that it does not need so many receptors and will begin once again to change the landscape of these centers. But because this has already been experianced by the brain once, it is verry quick to adapt when it happens again, hence the increased suceptability to recurring addiction.
    Since large doses of Kratom cause a spillover effect into the mu opiate receptor, it can be extrapolated from the data that it is doing the some thing. It will pass, but it will take awhile.
    Tell your buddy to only have occasional fling with this woman in the future,(if at all), and if she ever offers some F/m bondage and S&M again, tell him to say NO! She is a wonderful lover, but a horrible mistress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2006
  8. drewcil

    drewcil Silver Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    Very helpful, I am very knowledgeable of "nutritional supplements" and everything having to do with endogenous and exogenous testosterone. SWIM never knew it worked like that within the brain with these type of substances. I am sorry to hear about you's back pain and what You went through, I am also glad You has it under control. SWIM thanks You for taking the time to post their experience and offer some advice, it is much appreciated by me! I don't plan on using again, and is doing everything possible to stay off.
     
  9. Hlucn8

    Hlucn8 Gold Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    Very wise decision! Good luck to you.
     
  10. Nicaine

    Nicaine Titanium Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    The issue of replacing traditional opiates with kratom is an important one, vs. that of becoming addicted to kratom with no prior opiate involvement.

    Kratom has essentially been 'maintaining' the opiate receptor deficit caused by hydrocodone, and so what you's going through now is much closer to hydro withdrawal than kratom withdrawal. You should probably plan on 7-10 days, rather than the 3-4 days when only kratom has been abused.

    Also, You should really try hard to taper down instead of going through this (otherwise, what was the point of the kratom in the first place?). If You has tried and it's impossible, *then* is the time to consider cold turkey. After some mental preparation, and with supplies like phenibut, etc. already on hand (try getting a couple weeks worth of low-dose clonidine from the doctor, and maybe a week's supply of Ativan).

    Best of luck...
     
  11. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    Yes, Benzos help with the anxiety and shakes a bit. Also, low dose DXM has been shown anecdotally to help, though again it is a round-about opaite so work up slowly.
    SWIM learned the hard way that cold turkey is always a bad idea. it is well worth tapering if You has enough self discipline and is willing to put up with a longer overall withdrawal time.
    Good luck. SWIM may be adding to this thread soon, as SWIM definitely has upregulated opiate receptors from past heavy heroin abuse, and will likely get a bitch of a withdrawal from months of daily use. SWIM's body is used to this kind of punishment though. Too bad there's always a price to pay !
     
  12. drewcil

    drewcil Silver Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    SWIM really want to genuinely say thanks to everyone who helped SWIM out in this thread. SWIM's withdrawals were pretty darn bad, and now the mental part is hitting SWIM pretty hard as well. I would say the withdrawals lasted a good 8-10 days. Phenibut seemed to help that, but too much Phenibut can cause some nasty anxiety type withdrawals as well, so it's all gotta be done with nothing else. Now that I am past the withdrawal stage, SWIM just feels bored all the time, like everything used to be so enjoyable, and now there is never a good mood. I don't know if there's anything that can help with mood enhancement, but something is definitely needed. Does anyone know how long it may take SWIM to feel "normal" again? Even something as simple as being excited to watch a movie or something like that. Nothing is enjoyable anymore. BTW, today is Day 14 for SWIM being off the stuff. Thanks very much again from SWIM.
     
  13. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    Great job holding in there. I need to detox off of kratom himself sometime in the future, but he's putting it off for a while yet. I know it may seem like trite advice, but getting into a hobby, or something which gets You out of the house sometimes (a volunteer program type of thing is great, because positively impacting others can help a lot with self-image and personal strength), and getting into working out are all very helpful.
     
  14. gn2osis

    gn2osis Iridium Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    Hey Radiometer! Long-time no see.

    I am a big advocate of tapering opioids. Kratom could be helpful in tapering off hydro because kratom is less sedating, and therefore more suited to use during the day. (Any hydro dose greater than 5 mg caused SWIM to feel excessively tired.) But it's still a monkey. SWIM liked a reputable vendor's 10x kratom extract, and felt that 0.5 gram (1/5 tsp.) of the extract had about the same effects as 7.5 mg hydro.

    SWIM's daily hydro use was about 35 mg, most of which was taken at bedtime, with a few mg in the early evening to stave off acute w/d's. He tried to cold-turkey a couple times, but the emotional and physical malaise were too much. Tapering finally worked.

    Bottom line, for an easier ride, I would suggest tapering kratom at about 10% every 2-3 days, maybe with some short-term benzo assistance.

    P.S. - Interesting comment above about low-dose DXM helping, since methadone has some dissociative activity too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2007
  15. Nicaine

    Nicaine Titanium Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    I was hooked on kratom for just over a year, and when he quit he got some moderate depression starting around day 4 and lasting a couple weeks... the best cure is probably just time.
    If the depression continues more than another week or two, You might want to see a doctor about getting on an antidepressant. I got through that period by quitting smoking and forcing himself to exercise regularly (even tho he didn't want to), which helped a lot.
     
  16. gn2osis

    gn2osis Iridium Member

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    drewcil, I meant to say: yes, it definitely gets better! The post-hydro malaise lasted a couple of months, but each week was easier. You're over the worst of it by far.

    Since Kratom has stimulant properties too, some sort of stimulant might help withdraw from it (with all due caution about that class of materials). In SWIM's experience, kratom at the dosage mentioned above (1/5 tsp of 10x extract) substituted pretty well for about 5 mg Adderall + 5 mg of hydro.

    Damned impressive testament to your strength and willpower that you've been able to kick it.
     
  17. tonymontana

    tonymontana Newbie

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    Re: Kratom addiction....

    ive heard so many stories of people getting addicted to opiates after back surgery. they really have to come out with a pill that doesnt have euphoric side effects but still numbs pain. and they also need to make money trees, and time machines, and self replenishing bags of doritos.
     
  18. Nicaine

    Nicaine Titanium Member

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    Kratom dependence - a history...

    I was heavily addicted to kratom between summer '05 and April/May '06. He managed to kick the stuff after that, but recently has been dumb enough to once again become dependent. The recent dryup of RC's has contributed to his overdoing the stuff and again becoming both physically and mentally dependent.

    Anyway, here's a short case history of what the experience is like.

    Bedtime: SWIM can't sleep unless he's high on kratom. Yet once he gets high on it, he has trouble falling asleep due to stimulation/anxiety. It takes a minimum of some Lunesta to put him to sleep, and sometimes he's awake half the night tossing and turning.

    Morning: Withdrawals kick in toward the morning hours while I am still asleep, often resulting in nightmares and poor sleep quality. SWIM wakes up in withdrawal every morning -- a state of intense inner agitation coupled with fatigue (agitation can be so bad it results in irregular, racing heartbeats and dizziness). He heads straight for the kitchen to prepare himself a cup of kratom tea and await the blessed relief when the stuff kicks in.

    Day: I am out of work, but kratom lowers his motivation even more than usual. Typically he sits around watching dumb TV shows, buzzing on kratom most of the day.

    Evening: SWIM averages 2-3 cups of kratom daily (~20 g/dose at this point). Typically he redoses midafternoon, and then evening, then MAYBE again right before bedtime.

    General: SWIM's sex drive has been dead, dead, dead. All the time while he's on kratom, and often even when he's not. Of course when not, he feels too crappy to have sex anyway, so let's just call it dead. His nuts actually physically hurt due to weeks & weeks with no release. I have recently been taking an enema daily/every day for severe constipation caused by kratom. He has also lost some weight and his diet has gone to hell recently.

    W/D: Mostly agitation coupled with extreme fatigue. Some sweating, chills and other opiate-like symptoms as well, but mostly those two. The main w/d's last 3-4 days, at which point they subside but then strong depression kicks in (enough to make SWIM contemplate suicide + checking himself into the hospital) and lasts til the 2-3 week point. After that I am OK, *if* he manages to stay off kratom during the depression phase.

    I am going to kick kratom again... soon, very soon... :(

    P.S. I posted this to encourage the reader to take it easy with kratom. It's legal and easy to get, and those are often the most troublesome of substances (look what effect alcohol has on society). SWIM urges both caution and conservativeness in dosing -- don't use kratom more than 3 times/week, preferably with two clean days in between every day it's used. NEVER use kratom more than once a day. Once is enough to become lightly dependent, but more than this makes the dependency strong and very hard to kick, not to mention greatly increasing side effects like chronic constipation and loss of sex drive.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  19. allyourbase

    allyourbase Palladium Member

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    Re: Kratom dependence - a history...

    SWIN should rediscover the wonders of high grade marijuana. kratom is a narcotic, if not an opiate. the key to narcotics is willpower and patience. if one is using more than once or twice a month (excepting of course times of actual physical pain wherin narcotics are useful painkillers), then chances are one is at least mentally dependant. self denial is self control.
     
  20. enquirewithin

    enquirewithin Gold Member

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    Re: Kratom dependence - a history...

    Interesting, frank post SWIN, as usual. This might make some people rightly cautious. Whilst I have never taken kratom very regularly, he can emphasise with this:

    I find kratom stops him sleeping properly too, which is strange becuase you would think it would help you sleep. And it kills SWIM's sex drive-- or abilty to have sex properly.

    A question: Do you mean 20 g?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2007