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Comedown - kratom, feel withdrawal

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by jessicatt, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. jessicatt

    jessicatt Newbie

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    46 y/o Female from Florida, U.S.A.
    I have been taking 7 Bali large capsules every 4 hours along with a 200 mg caffeine pill.
    I suffer from depression, taking paxil but it is not able to help me with my mood.

    The only way I can feel friendly and can handle people at work is if I take my 7 capsules bali/1 caffeine every four hours
    The problem is if I do not take my dose, I feel out-of-sorts.
    Dizzy, tight chest, disoriented, irritable, tired.

    What is going on, and how can I stop this?

    The part that is freaking me out is the feeling of passing out.
    I feel upset because I felt as if I found something that could normalize my moods forever, now I am concerned.
    Can anyone advise please.
    I do not take this to feel I a high, just to feel normal.

    History:
    I am a 42 year old female.
     
  2. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    --------
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  3. tcoro

    tcoro Titanium Member

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    hi jessica,

    for how long have you been taking 7 caps every 4 hours daily? how much is in each cap? and are you taking the caffiene even at night? I know some people are sensitive to it, and it is addictive. I often feel tired, lethargic or get headaches when I dont get my caffiene fix.

    Kratom can also be addictive, and it sounds like you are getting withdrawl symptoms if/when you miss a dose.
    Did you think that Kratom was not addictive or just didn't think it would happen? I am just wondering.

    You should probably cut back off the Kratom slowly and talk to your doctor about the Paxil not helping your depression, maybe they can recommend another anti-depressent to try instead or add something to the mix to help.

    Also, is there a reason you prefer Bali? and have you tried other strains?

    I hope that IanZ will chime in here. He is by far the Kratom expert and may be able to help you as well.

    Stay Safe
    tc
     
  4. jessicatt

    jessicatt Newbie

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    46 y/o Female from Florida, U.S.A.
    Maybe I do Potter, thanks for the in-depth answer.
    I notice you are always hovering for a jab at someone.
     
  5. Space Numpty

    Space Numpty Palladium Member

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    Whilst i appreciate your feelings on how Potter may choose to respond to threads, he is correct.

    You did ask "What is going on, and how can I stop this?" and the answer is, you are suffering withdrawal because you are addicted.

    How can you stop it? Deal with the addiction.

    Now, i understand as well as the next man that its very easy to say "stop" and much harder to do when you have found something that helps your mood. The reality is the change in mood is false and temporary as it is drug induced. The same goes for Paxil.

    I think you deserve a better life than having to go day by day chemically altering your mood, but im afraid i don't have a simple solution to that. I use Kratom daily and i accept it at the moment because my mood would be unbearable otherwise. But i do hope once i have picked myself back up off the floor i can move forward without Kratom. At the very least thats how you need to look at it love.

    Feel free to DM me if you want to chat
     
  6. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    For how long?
    Has your dose always been the same or has it been increasing since you started?

    Why are you taking Bali and then taking caffeine? They both do the opposite to each other.
    If you are looking for stimulation you could always switch to a green veined strain and drop the caffeine.
    It might be a good place to start anyway.

    Anti-depressants are only a temporary solution to depression, you need to look into therapy to get to the root of the depression, you also need to live a healthy lifestyle and that includes eating a balanced diet, exercising daily and avoiding drugs, alcohol, caffeine and excess sugar.

    While drugs like kratom might help with your mood in the short term they are not a long term solution anymore than anti-depressants. With continued use the beneficial effects often turn to negatives.
    Where there was once increased energy there is fatigue. Euphoria slowly becomes less pronounced until you are taking the kratom just to feel normal.
    If you want to get the most out of kratom then you HAVE to use it no more than once or twice a week and keep the dose as low as possible.

    These are withdrawal symptoms, a sign that your body has become reliant on kratom to feel normal.

    Addiction. You need to stop using kratom and let your body go back to normal. This can take some time, the physical withdrawals can last about a week and the psychological withdrawals a little longer. It really depends on how much you have been using and how long you have been using it for as well as it being different person to person.
    You have the choice to stop cold turkey or to taper down.
    Personally i advise tapering slowly.
    Start to reduce your daily dose by half a gram every other day, or take longer if you need. When you are all the way down to have a gram you can either jump off or start reducing by .1 grams every other day.
    Ive found that a slow steady taper like this can help you avoid most if not all withdrawal sympthoms (physical at least)

    I used to get this sensation when i had been taking kratom for too long, for me it was the onset of panic/anxiety attacks which were compounded by my disgust for having let myself get addicted. This feeling went away after i stopped using it.

    Like i said, kratom is not a long term solution, for that you need therapy to get to the root of the moods. If they are the result of a chemical unbalance then medication can help or a combination of both. It can take many years to find the correct medication but you should also be taking care of your health at the same time.

    You must have been taking it for the effects on your mood initially, no?
    That is not really taking it to feel normal, it is taking it to feel good. The euphoric effects are what made you feel good. You might be taking it to feel normal now, but that is only because you have either become addicted, or your tolerance has risen and your dose is no longer effective.

    I hope that you feel better soon, i think a break from kratom is exactly what you need.
     
  7. idfma

    idfma Titanium Member Donating Member

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    Jessi, you definitely need to start by reducing your intake. By my math (and assuming a 'large' capsule is 1 gm) you're taking over 40 gms of kratom per day, and, even if we reduce that to waking hours, it's still over 20 gms. That's a shitload of kratom. I recommend you read Ian's response closely. As usual, his advice and information are impeccable.

    However, while I agree that you need to address the problem (in your case it is most definitely a problem), the posts I've read here have raised some questions and concerns. Starting with:

    Every morning as I get ready for work, I ingest caffeine to feel normal. Should I stop doing that?

    My doctor has been insisting that I take medication every day for my blood pressure both to feel normal and to normalize it. Many people do just that every day--should they stop?

    Many people take countless vitamins each morning, and it makes them feel 'normal'. Should they stop?

    I could go on, but the above examples are 'taking drugs every day to feel normal'--in the HPB example to BE normal. Consequently, I'm not sure it's fair to say that the goal is always not to put something into our bodies every day. If I want to see my daughter graduate high school, I'm going to have to listen to my doctor about my blood pressure at some point. Many would suggest the world would be a better place if I didn't--we'll see where I end up.

    The key is being in control of your intake of whatever you put in your body, and then being sure it is benefitting, rather than hurting you. Once you lose control, it's a bad thing, but I'm not sure I agree that the general assertion that ingesting substances every day is inherently 'bad'. It might be better not to, if possible, but as I pointed out, sometimes to continue living, we have to ingest substances every day.

    Finally, Potter's advice was very un-advisor-ly and unsupportive, however true it may have been. Had that been a post from an 'average' user of this forum, there would have been a string of red stars below the post. I've seen a lot of similar posts from people scared and confused about withdrawal symptoms, but this is the first time I've seen them replied to with contempt--especially from a ranking member here.
     
  8. jessicatt

    jessicatt Newbie

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    46 y/o Female from Florida, U.S.A.
    Thanks all of you for your help.
    I purposefully searched out Kratom as a replacement for hydrocodone.
    I had a bad tooth removed, and found when I took a hydrocodone it made me feel more alert, happy, friendly etc.
    I knew I could not get another refill, so I got kratom.
    It works better than hydrocodone for me.
    I am certainly addicted to Paxil (cannot go off of it without severe withdrawal), caffeine and now Kratom- not hard for me to admit.
    My father and brother are both addicts- brother addicted to heroin & father anything that is not nailed down.



    Here are some answers to your questions:
    for how long have you been taking 7 caps every 4 hours daily? Taking them for a few months, started with 4.

    Did you think that Kratom was not addictive or just didn't think it would happen?
    I was always able to cut back on a substance before it gripped me, but this one kind of grabbed me fast.

    Also, is there a reason you prefer Bali? and have you tried other strains? I like bali for the increased energy, it gives me the ability to be more empathetic to people, I am usually irritated, but I find that I can get 4 good hours of a great mood.
    Tried Red Vein, has a similar effect on me. Bali eastern did nothing for me.

    how much is in each cap? and are you taking the caffiene even at night?
    I take 1 mg pill times 7. I stop taking the kratom and caffeine by 7 pm.
     
  9. Amazing Jeans

    Amazing Jeans Silver Member

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    Not much to add other than Red Strains are generally more associated with making people sedated and green strains are more energy providing.

    You might want to try some Green Malay if you can source that.

    All the best.
     
  10. ledhead91

    ledhead91 Newbie

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    Try taking some amino acids. It saved me.

    Try taking gaba along with taurine. Also take l tyrosine in the day and 5htp or tryptophan at nite.

    Read up on how your paxil will affect this. I take lamictal along with this stuff and im fine tho.

    ledhead91 added 1 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

    And l-theanine. I recommend you try this first. Pair it with coffee and its awesome
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  11. Dankfish

    Dankfish Silver Member

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    You are juggling three addictions right now. Kratom hits opioid receptors and going without it causes a minor withdrawal but very comparable to an actual opiate.

    Along with this, you are taking 200 mg of caffeine every four hours. Caffeine is also very addictive and has it's own withdrawals. Along with this, only 400 mg of caffeine is recommended per day, and you are definitely exceeding this if you are hitting 800 mg (200 mg ever 4 hrs with 16 hrs of waking time)

    The antidepressant also is once again highly addictive. There are reasons people don't just hop off antidepressants when they feel like it.

    I would suggest cutting the caffeine consumption down and perhaps cutting the kratom entirely out because it's being used in a fruitless attempt to combat depression. Talk with your doctor about getting off the Paxil for something else after doing your own research into antidepressants on the internet.

    I'd also like to make clear that I am a massive kratom addict and also caffeine addict. I don't use them to combat depression but I do know what happens if I jump off them. I'm not trying to come off as an inconsiderate ass right now.

    Most importantly, take it easy out there. Enjoy the only life you are granted.
     
  12. StudentHealer

    StudentHealer Silver Member

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    jessicat, you're experiencing physical addiction to kratom. I know it's difficult to do, but you may want to work on tapering off of it as quickly as you are able. I'm a little worried here...

    Some people do take kratom for chronic pain or depression and it works great for them. However... you're already under a doctor's care. By mixing Paxil with kratom, you're putting yourself at risk for some serious negative reactions. Most concerning is the possibility of a "serotonin storm" or "serotonin syndrome"; it is literally life-threatening.

    Okay, so... while you're getting off the kratom, I definitely recommend going to your doctor about the paroxetine (Paxil) not working for you. Different antidepressants work for different people. Telling your doctor that this one ain't cutting it is the only way you can get something that does work for you. There's no way for me to know what they will switch you to... but when they do, please please please follow their instructions to the letter. The majority of the time, your doctor will get you safely from one psychiatric medication to another.

    All the best to you, jessicat.
     
  13. Mr.Gonzo

    Mr.Gonzo Silver Member

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    My question is what are your reasons for taking kratom. Is it for pain, depression, or just recreational. If you are a pain sufferer then kratom isnt really the worst thing to be dependant on, compared to all other opiates, and it really can make your life alot better.

    If for depression, only use it acutely when you feel depressed, not everyday to control it. Personally i think ssri's are dangerous and dont work very well at all. i would drop the paxil, my mother was on paxil and she had extreme withdrawals on a vacation, including electric zaps, crying, twitching, extreme depression, and things that would give morphine withdrawal a run for its money. Not to sound cliche but try exercising, finding a hobby, a well worth job ect. You could try saint johns wort or kanna for depression as they seem safer then paxil, or use prozac a much more mild ssri.

    If you really just want to quit kratom then do what ianzombie said. drop by .1 grams every few days until you are eating .5 grams or so, then quit. do not quit cold turkey as that is just giving you unnecessary suffering. Be glad your addicted to kratom as its withdrawals are real they pale in comparison to opium derivatives benzos and ssri's. there mild but definitely still real though, and mild doesn't mean pleasant.

    Good luck and don't ever let substances take a hold of you. you should always be in control and there supposed to only help you.
     
  14. StudentHealer

    StudentHealer Silver Member

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    jessicat, only your doctor can decide whether antidepressants are a temporary or long-term solution for you. While the steps toward good self-care that ianzombie suggests in the quote are good advice for anybody, they are not necessarily going to solve, or even help, your issues with depression.

    Since you have not shared what type of depression you have, it's not a good idea for any of us to make assumptions about what antidepressants do for you. I mean, you could be one of the 14.8 million people in the United States with major depressive disorder and for those folks, antidepressants are definitely not a temporary thing. But like I said, that's something we just don't know. In the spirit of harm reduction, I'd like to say again that the best thing for you to do, jessicat, is talk to your doctor about the way your medications aren't working for you.

    I just wanted to err on the side of caution here, y'all, and encourage everyone to refrain from making generalizations about treatment for psychological disorders. When people make assumptions like that (ex.: saying antidepressants are merely a temporary measure), it contributes to the stigmatization of mental illness, whether we intended to or not.
     
  15. wonderingoutloud

    wonderingoutloud Silver Member

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    I don't know if this should be posted in this thread and if so could you guide in the correct direction. This has to do with running out of kratom. I was a day late with my order and I had pretty bad night. I was sleep walking for hours. Thank God my boyfriend was alert or I would have been out doors naked.I felt my RLS kicking it very early so I knew I was dooooooooomed. But I guess what I am asking is has anyone here have such an experience? This went on the entire night. I remember a few things but the rest is blur. I have been known to walk in my sleep but never like that.I am wondering was it a kratom side affect? Again this may be the wrong spot to drop this thread, and if so I am sorry.
     
  16. imafallguy

    imafallguy Newbie

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    RLS is a very real withdraw symptom of abruptly stopping Kratom if you've been dosing regularly. My pet Alpaca (Natasha) recently tapered off of a 3 month daily habit which reached 8g, 3x daily at its peak. She attempted to quit cold turkey, ignorant of the WD effects. In the early evening of her first night without a dose, severe RLS prevented her from getting any sleep, whatsoever.

    The second night without dosing, the RLS was just as bad but she reportedly could catch maybe a few minutes of sleep at times. When she would "wake up" from the momentary nap it was more of a lucid dream, or twilight, before truly being awake. During the taper these waking dreams continued off and on for a few weeks decreasing in severity until they were gone.

    Natasha has never been known to sleep walk before, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possible symptom, especially if you haven't changed anything else about your routine. Maybe you could note your sleeping habits for a period of time using Kratom, then stop (if you're comfortable enough doing this) and have your boyfriend act as a sitter for you that night to observe any odd behavior?