Kratom- Toxicity?

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by panchovilla, Feb 2, 2006.

  1. panchovilla

    panchovilla Newbie

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    Hey, I have been search enginin' for write ups about any possible health concerns with kratom, but have not found any thus far. I have read that it has low if any liver toxicity, but this was on a vendor site. It seems that if long term use can color the whites of your eyes and skin then this would be a sign of liver problems. I have been using kratom about 3-4 times a week since last august, if I remember right. I have not noticed any eye or skin coloration change. I have noticed that my most recent pair of contacts started to turn brown, but I wore longer than usual. Any one have any links to kratom in relation to liver toxicity and overall effects on health.

    Another thing is the massive amounts of honey I use to sweeten my kratom. My next round of investigation is going to be in the honey verses refined sugar healthiness. Somebody told me that honey is pure "sugar", but this is BS if they meant sugar in the sense of the white refined substance sold at the grocers as "sugar". There are many types of sugar ie glucose, fructose, and sucrose or whatever and whatever else.

    I have the feeling that fructose, which is what is in honey, is better for u than refined sugar,sucrose(sp?). It is not the added nutrients and stuff that is in honey that expect would make it better. It is the effects on the blood sugar level and tooth decay that I am wondering about.

    Is there someone who can set me straight on this? I am going to do my own research but I would like any comments that anyone would have to offer like Md's, nutrionalist, bums, gypsies, crackheads, and kratomheads.

    This is really just my gut feelings and nothing else. Since honey is made by bees it seems to me, in my line of cognitive processes, that it would be healthier than the ultra refined and bleached shit known as table sugar.

    I have already started and reading and found stuff contrary to my way of thinking about it honey and natural sweeteners have a little more minerals and vitamins, but not enough to make an difference in health and well being.

    But I am thinking that maybe the since it is more refined that the body is effected differenty by it.

    Does honey cause tooth decay?
     
  2. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    I have also wondered about liver problems and kratom. I would be inclined to think that kratom does adversely affect the liver. If you take kratom, and then drink a beer once the buzz gets going, you will probably notice the beer lasts longer than normal. This could be a result of less liver enzymes available to break down the alcohol. If this was the case, the enzymes were probably used to break down the kratom alkaloids.

    The longer lasting buzz could also be a result of both drugs affecting the same receptors and neurotransmitters in the brain. If your concerned about potential liver problems, I would recommend getting your liver enzymes checked at the doctor. Please post the results if you do.
     
  3. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    I don't think that the pigmentation problems with Kratom are liver related, though it is probably metabolized in part by cytochromes, which means that there will be an oxygen free radical at some point in the process, hence minor liver damage.
    Still, you have to consider that the amount of mytraginine and friends in leaf product is not much, and damage is dose dependent by this mechanism. Endemic Kratom use is all day every day, which is not feasible if you do not have the trees growing in your back yard.
    Does anyone know of any metabolic or pharmokinetic information regarding this product ?

    SNapper
     
  4. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    It would not be to expensive for one to use kratom all day, every day. If someone can afford a coke or meth habit, they can surely afford the kratom. Hell, even a pot habit would be more expensive.
     
  5. panchovilla

    panchovilla Newbie

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    The only other thing I have found out is that honey can raise or might raise cholesterol. I am not sure that I believe in cholesterol yet. I think that honey should be considered an entheogen due to it's healing properties, unless entheogens have to be plants. Regardless, honey has almost become and essential part of my kratom ritual.
     
  6. panchovilla

    panchovilla Newbie

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    I found one link that said that honey may fight tooth decay, but everything else I read said that the sugars in honey will be turned into acid by the bacteria in your mouth and will damage your teeth. The worse part about it according to what I just read is that the conitinous sipping throughout the day of sugar sweet stuff will continuously kick these harmful bacteria into high gear doing lots of damage to your teeth.

    So I guess I may be making lots of pudding in the very near future. Or will I just have to drink unsweetened kratom tea? Yuck.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2009
  7. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    Try using milk. A small amount of creamer will also help the taste.
     
  8. fnord

    fnord Palladium Member

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    i tried the creamer with tea, it did make it less bitter
     
  9. panchovilla

    panchovilla Newbie

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    I'm just keep using honey or agave nectar with some milk or creamer, like I've been doing all along. Then make a pudding out of the already used stuff.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2007
  10. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Well I have found out the hard way that overdoses can be unpleasant. They create a feeling of sickness, nausea, and a pounding heartbeat.
    There also seems to be more of a thermogenic effect (ie- overheating) in tandem with certain stimulants and psychedelics. I have not found this effect to be dangerous, but was forced to stand in the cold for a while without a coat to cool down twice. Now SWIM never combines the two. This seems to stem from the stimulant effects, which seem to vary with plant and mode of ingestion. my batch is very speedy, BTW.

    Snapper
     
  11. kemistudent

    kemistudent Silver Member

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    Do you notice a tollerance buildup with Kratom? Is it very evident, or slightly noticable??
     
  12. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    The tolerance is obtained very quickly. By the third day of daily use, it's quite noticable. Most of the kratom vendors advice customers not take kratom daily. Many people say the best thing to do is use it no more than 2-3 days in a week, and never two days in a row. Of course, many of the kratom users who say this are daily users themselves.
     
  13. kemistudent

    kemistudent Silver Member

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    Interesting.. is it common to get dizzy spells after/during using Kratom? When I say dizzy spell, I am refering to the type of dizziness you would get after doing way too much MDMA. The Vertigo kinda feeling, like your about to faint dizziness??
     
  14. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    Generally, that is a sign that you took to much.
     
  15. kemistudent

    kemistudent Silver Member

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    I like to think I always take just the right amount ;) Next time I will be sure to consume some licorice, dandelion, carrot juice and milk thistle as these all are good for the liver and promote enzyme formation to aid in the livers function.

    This way you balance out any potential harm you are doing to yourself. :)
     
  16. panchovilla

    panchovilla Newbie

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    I agree tolerance is built up very easily. I have never gotten dizzy from kratom. I used to experience nausea from the resin extract , and puked twice off of it. It was quite pleasant for a puking episode though, because the kratom had fixed me up nicely numb. One time whenever I was brushing my teeth then I brushed my tongue and then I hurled. The other time I was experiencing the dreaded hickups and I drank a shitload of water real fast to treat the hickups then hurl. With the resin extract the hickups were common along with slight naseau. With the leaf naseau is very rare and then only slight.
     
  17. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    Yeah, for some reason, kratom gives SWIM the hiccoughs. Go figure - never happens with more traditional narcotics !

    Snapper
     
  18. sands of time

    sands of time Gold Member

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    I get the hiccups occasionally if he drinks over a couple beers after having kratom.
     
  19. Richard_smoker

    Richard_smoker Gold Member

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    Pigmentation problems are usually from 1 of 2 sources:
    1. ACTH (adrenal corticotrophic hormone) which increases melanin in the skin. It's interesting that Kratom (mytragine) has opioid agonist properties because the originating hormome that causes ACTH secretion is adrenocortioctropin. This causes release of Proopiomelanin which can be broken down into melanin, enkephalin (endogenous opiates), and ACTH. So, this might explain some of the opiate agonist properties--either it causes expression of natural endorphins by way of adrenocorticotrophin (which would also increase melanin) or it just fucks up the production of normal enkephalin and increases the expression of melanin. Either way is NOT good. I wouldn't want my body to be permanently altered in this way.

    2. Wilson's Disease
    (problem with liver breakdown of copper... aka "Bronze Diabetes"--this eventually leads to cirrhosis and complete liver failure. This is definitely the worse of the 2 possible paths to pigmentation. This condition could be simulated if kratom does occupy or disrupt the liver's CYP cytochrome oxidase system.
    ***If THIS is what's causing the pigmentation, then there are ways to test the theory. The easiest way is to look for what are called Keisser-Flieshner rings around the iris of the eye. Look for purple rings just outside the colored part of the eyes. If you have them then STOP DOING KRATOM, go to the doctor and for GOD'S SAKE, POST IT TO THIS BOARD!!!

    None of us want to die from Kratom use. I'm sure we'd all rather just splurge and take our chances with the real stuff.

    -Dick
     
  20. snapper

    snapper Gold Member

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    You didn't mention jaundice as a third possibility (from liver disease). ACTH secretion from the pituitary could be an explanation, but kratom I believe is a direct agonist to the mu receptor, hence a hormonal messenger as an intermediate is unlikely. Some substances can cause pigmentation of the skin directly, and it is probably more likely the case since the hyperpigmentation is not, to my knowledge, associated with a disease state. The ACTH idea is plausible, however this would also trigger an increase in cortisol. Humans on corticosteroids are fucked up in many obvious ways which someone should have already picked up on
    (ie - mood swings, weight gain, painful joints, muscle weakness, lowered immune system, etc.).

    Snapper