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Addiction - Kratom WDs vs. opiate WDs?

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by vervain, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. vervain

    vervain Titanium Member

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    At the suggestion of a couple others, been using kratom to help ease the withdrawals from opiate use. So far it's been helpful - alleviating some of the dysphoria, anxiety, aches, etc, and seems it cuts the sense of 'fiending' way down. Other symptoms such as persisent RLS are still present (though perhaps they'd be much worse without the kratom, this tends to be the most miserable aspect of Withdrawals for me). Though I'm not out of the woods yet, so far I'd say it's a great tool for someone kicking opiates.

    The catch of course is that you're trading one addictive substance for another. I've heard it said that kratom's addiction potential and Withdrawals symptoms are nothing compared to an opiate habit, but wanted to get some firsthand details.

    Went through a couple kratom withdrawal-journal threads on here, but the ones I found seemed to be written by fairly drug-naive individuals and it was hard to tell how much of the ordeal they described was objective and how much due to their obsessing & anxiety about the experience, and/or the fact that it was their first real withdrawal.

    So, anyone out there who's gone through both WDs from sustained regular opiate use and also WDs from sustained regular kratom use - how were the experiences similar & different, in symptoms, severity, duration, etc?
     
  2. thirdeyelasik

    thirdeyelasik Silver Member

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    I have been through both 40mg a day hydrocodone w/d and 20 grams a day kratom w/d so I can give you some info no problem.

    Kratom w/d is longer and more drawn out. It takes a solid 10 days to get back to normal
    where hydro w/d is only bad for about 4 days(the physical part I'm talking about). Kratom w/d doesn't include stomach cramps which is nice. The mental depression is less than hydro w/d but it is not to be underestimated. The bad news is that for me the RLS from kratom w/d is much worse than that of hydro....not to mention that it takes much longer for the RLS to stop. I say this because I read that you hate RLS the most.

    All in all kratom w/d isn't anywhere as bad as a mid range hydro habit w/d but you will have the following:
    Yawning hundreds of times a day
    Eyes watering all the time
    extremely lazy depressed type of feeling for up to ten days
    a small amount of bathroom issues(going more times than normal)
    Very bad RLS
    Headache similar to caffeine w/d
     
  3. Dankfish

    Dankfish Silver Member

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    thirdeye described my kratom w/ds to a tee. I get this completely overwhelming urge to need to get out of my body also, I don't really know how to word the feeling. It's very strange.
     
  4. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    As a regular kratom user I found kratom to be as bad as hydrocodone, if not worse. The biggest withdrawal symptom for me is the EXTREME fatigue kratom induces, expect to sleep 12 to 14 hours initially.

    Yawns are annoying, runny nose is annoying and leg pain is especially pronounced. WDs only last about 72 hours for me, agitation occurs as well. Not the worst but definitely interferes with life for a couple of days.

    I never had a issue with depression in withdrawals but I am on anti-depressants, so that could be why.
     
  5. Raol Duke

    Raol Duke Mercury Member

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    Yep thirdeye spot on. Ive been using kratom daily for over a year two times a day morning/night. Recently been adding H and various other opiates replacing the night dose of kratom, and sometimes during day as well. This made w/d way worse. Much more of the chills, hot/cold simultaneous bullshit, sweating, ect. After a week off of real opes and back to just kratom, the in between dose w/d are also back to being fairly mild. Just the yawning and teary eyes and some body temp issues.

    Raol Duke added 1 Minutes and 0 Seconds later...

    Oh yeah, and real depressed that i dont have the real opes even though i have plenty of kratom
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
  6. Lady Codone

    Lady Codone Titanium Member

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    My opiate "habits"--whether poppies, pills or kratom--have always been extremely small compared to others (i.e. low dose physical dependence). Still, I find kratom withdrawal to be exactly like other opiate withdrawal except in length, which is waaaaay shorter than pods. I'm talking 7 days vs. 2 months. It's indistinguishable from Percocet withdrawal IMO. The mental anguish is identical for all three opies I've been on. (For some reason I don't get physical symptoms other than fatigue when quitting opiates, thank god). The only difference is length of w/d. YMMV of course.
     
  7. c4nucKsens8tioN

    c4nucKsens8tioN Silver Member

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    My opiate of choice was Roxi's. I'm heavily experience in kratom as well. From heavy use of both I can safely say that Roxicodone was worse. But if you do enough kratom like 15+ grams a day it can be pretty damn close.

    For me personally kratom withdrawal is practically over by day 3, or at least such a substantial improvement you get that natural euphoria from feeling like you've accomplished something and you've finally gotten through the worst of it.

    Roxi's/any other true opiate to me last a hell of a lot longer. I guess it all depends on the individuals experience, drug of choice and duration of use.
     
  8. Barely Conscious

    Barely Conscious Silver Member

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    Wow I did not expect Kratom to have bad WD's but then again I experienced Kratom for the first time yesterday and I've been up and alert for like 10hrs off 6grams of Superior Green Vein and highly anticipating my Red Vein package that comes in a today . . actually in a few hours, would you guys suggest I take a day break or something or is my tolerance low enough for me to binge on a bit ?
     
  9. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Even if your tolerance is not high why risk it?
    Start your use by getting into a sensible routine.
    Take it one day and then take a couple of days off before you take it again.
    Keep your doses low.
    Avoid extracts and enhanced products.
     
  10. Barely Conscious

    Barely Conscious Silver Member

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    I've read your guide about purchasing Kratom and I only intend to stick to leafs/powder. Consequently, I couldn't resist the surprise I got with my package though, only had a little bit though so I should fine. Will definitely take a 2 or 3 day break after this dosing.
     
  11. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    Careful bro or you'll end up like me.

    I too thought I was in control and I, in fact, was in good control for the first year of use. Weekends only was my rule.

    Then I started taking it once and awhile to get through work, again this worked for a little bit.

    Suddenly before I even noticed I was taking it daily, I can't get up without a dose and I need to take a mid day dose at work in order to starve off withdrawal symptoms, the tiredness is not something I can deal with while I am at work..especially since I was recently promoted to a lead position...more responsibilities.

    It changes how your brain works. Kratom is now just as important as food to my brain. What was once a substance I willingly took is now demanded by my brain. Just like when I'm hungry and my brain tells me I need food, kratom is now just as important if not more important than food.

    I accept that I allowed this to happen and it isn't the substance''s fault, but the potential for addiction and the withdrawal symptoms can be just as bad as..say hydrocodone. Wouldn't go as far to compare it to heroin but the withdrawals can be pretty terrible especially when you use high doses for long periods of time. I'm currently at 3 spoonfuls in the morning and 10 (800mg) pills in the afternoon, the taste is actually something I look forward to now instead of dreading it.

    I am actually curious to know how bad withdrawals would be at this point because I'm definitely not looking forward to it. I'm hoping it'll be short and sweet (3 days or so).
     
  12. seaturtle

    seaturtle Titanium Member

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    How much do you use daily DiabolicScheme? I use 10-15 grams a day between 2 doses, usually the first dose happens after I exercise, which is sometimes 9 am but oftentimes during the late afternoon (and if I can hold off until evening I only have one 9-10 g dose a day). One of the reasons I've stuck with Kratom is I don't get withdrawals until 18-24 hours after the last dose, so I'm surprised to hear you get withdrawals upon waking up. Perhaps you can take your Kratom later at night so you don't get withdrawals in the morning.
     
  13. Barely Conscious

    Barely Conscious Silver Member

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    You guys take a lot of Kratom! Holy france, I haven't noticed any WD's yet but I'll be keeping track of my intake . . Is there any recognizable symptom to look for in particular ?
     
  14. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    The main symptom to look at, in my opinion, is when kratom starts to become less effective in producing the desired effects at the same dose that was effective at one time. It means your body is starting to adapt to its natural state while under the influence of kratom. Your body constantly fights to stay at baseline, eventually kratom will carry little to no effect because of this. This is when you should stop and take a few days off. The alternative is to take more but again this is going to get you deeper into the rabbit hole because your body will continually adapt to these doses.

    To the other poster, I am taking roughly 3 grams, 3 times a day for the last month. I usually only need two doses but lately insomnia has been a withdrawal symptom for me (ironically in the beginning withdrawal made me sleep hard..very hard to wake up) so now I have to take a 3rd dose around 5 or 6PM to get through the night.

    Extreme fatigue occurs around the 6 hr mark for me as well as a psychological drive to use. The extreme fatigue is a big problem for me as its nearly unbearable and I can't work through it. Leg pain, snuffles and sweats don't come in until around 12-16hrs. Its the extreme fatigue that is the biggest problem with withdrawal, I can take the leg pain, sweats and snuffles but the extreme fatigue totally interrupts and puts my life on hold.

    I had my use under control for a year but before I knew it my use became more frequent than I should have allowed. Be careful, make sure you control yourself. I don't blame kratom, I blame me for this addiction just to make it clear.
     
  15. Raol Duke

    Raol Duke Mercury Member

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    Ive been taking kratom twice a day for over a year and ive never once had to increase doseage
     
  16. MachoManSavage

    MachoManSavage Silver Member

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    Yeah, I wanted to point out this too. I have never had to increase my dosage. Sometimes I would take 10 grams as opposed to my usual under 5 grams, but those were special cases. I usually feel very nausea's and tired if I even try to increase the dose, 7+ grams makes me want to die.
     
  17. Barely Conscious

    Barely Conscious Silver Member

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    I'm starting to realize what Diabolic is talking about. I stopped for about 4 days then the past 2 days I took 6 grams a night because my Adderall comedowns have been making me quite irritable. The night after the first was not even effective as the first, again I've never taken over 6 grams so I''ll take a break for a few days and just take 10 grams Friday, hoping for strong effects. Also I've been switching between Riau Superior Green and Bali so maybe that has something to do with the effects or my expectations. All I know is that I'll never purchase Bali again, such a dissapointment.
     
  18. Khariz

    Khariz Titanium Member

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    Same. I take 12 to 20 grams of Kratom per day spread between two doses, morning and night. I've done this for years. I don't need to increase the amount ever. In fact, if I DO increase the amount, I just feel sick and not normal.

    I'm part of the Kratom crowd that believes that "less is more" (when it comes to individual doses). I think 6 to 8 grams of plain leaf is plenty to get the proper effects from Kratom in a single dose. If you go above that amount or "re-up" with Kratom, it just doesn't work right, in my opinion.
     
  19. seaturtle

    seaturtle Titanium Member

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    I've never really experienced too much fatigue after a dose, and if it occurs it will be at least 18-24 hours after dosing, so the fact that you're getting fatigued 6 hours after a dose indicates to me that the Kratom might temporarily be covering up something else that's causing you fatigue. Levels of Kratom in the blood are still quite high around 6 hours, so it's unlikely any real withdrawal symptoms are occurring at that point.

    Perhaps exercising and a better diet might be the first place to start, and finding another herb to help with your energy could be benificial, such as Coca, Kola nut, 'Indian Ephedra', green tea, etc. Getting a physical from your doctor could help point you in the right direction too.
     
  20. PhiPack

    PhiPack Silver Member

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    I have only been taking it for a few weeks but there has been a few times where it just didnt do much but I didnt take more. I chalked it up to body chemistry issues. The next day I take my normal dose (4 to 7 grams) and it is back to normal.

    I read with Kratom that if it isnt working at 7 or 8 grams, taking more will likely be a waste. It just isnt going to work because of a number of factors.