Health - Low dose DXM for cognitive improvement?

Discussion in 'DXM' started by DipXset, Nov 30, 2010.

  1. DipXset

    DipXset Silver Member

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    I am wondering if taking low dose DXM (90 to 105 mg) every other day could lead to cognitive improvement/enhancement? DXM is structurally related to memantine, which is used for social anxiety/OCD/alzheimers improvement. I have always noticed that low doses always provide a great mood lift and make SWIM feel more like his old self before the traumatic life situations hit him. However insomnia has always been a bitch with DXM, even in low doses, does anyone have any tips on how to fix that? Cheers.
     
  2. croak

    croak Silver Member

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    I know someone who has used DXM as a cognition enhancer for years; she doses daily, and some of them would be classed as "heroic". She also takes many other supplements as well — B complex, phosphatidylserine, and a bunch of others — which may ameliorate any insomnia problems. EDIT: Found this list of the supplements taken by my friend:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  3. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Care to offer any evidence that DXM is good for "cognitive improvement"?
     
  4. Perfectly Insane

    Perfectly Insane Newbie

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    He did, he stated that DXM is structurally related to memantine, and that memantine is used for OCD/anxiety issues.
     
  5. Potter

    Potter Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Missed that...

    It seems like a bad idea. We've had a couple of daily DXM users come through here, they were not balanced people. Prone to incomprehensible ranting, in utter denial that they might have problems (like blacking out or thinking they have psychic powers).

    Sometimes active groups can make all the difference in the world.

    Why not just go ask for a script of the proper medication?
     
  6. DipXset

    DipXset Silver Member

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    I am going to be receiving his selegeline and anracitam in about 2 weeks, which is really all he needs. In the meantime I have been doing pretty well with using a low dose SSRI, DXM every other day 90-120 mg, and vigorous exercise. SSRI's promote neurogenesis so that's good. I am mainly using the low dose DXM for it's dopamine reuptake and norepinephrine reuptake effect with is said to be to resposible for euphoria is low doses in addition to serotonin being releasd. NMDA antagonists seem to be the perfect remedy for all types of depression/disorders.
     
  7. InfectedWithDrugs

    InfectedWithDrugs Mercury Member

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    Cool, I did not know it enhances brain's cognitive functions. SWIM heard it destroys the brain if taken frequently in high doses. I use it for pain and it works wonderfully..
     
  8. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    Lets get something clear. DXM is NOT structurally similar to memantine. Memantine has three conjoined rings each with 6 carbons and an amine group sticking out the side, along with a couple methyls.

    DXM is a much more complex molecule, but let's consider the conjoined double ring. In DXM one of the rings is six membered and the third is seven membered. The six membered ring has the nitrogen inside the ring itself, not sticking out of the side. This dramatically changes all the dynamics. Neither of the rings are similar to each other. Due to the differences between them, that means that the double ring as a whole does not even have the same stereo structure as is seen in memantine. They don't even share a similar number of sides with each other.

    That with the fact that DXM has a multitude of other substitutions which dramatically alter electron flow patterns and provide all kinds of steric hindrance not seen in memantine makes DXM a very different structure both in atomic connectivity and electron density.

    No, the two are not even remotely similar in chemical structure.
     
  9. C.D.rose

    C.D.rose Palladium Member Donating Member

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    ^^^
    I think what the OP meant is that both DXM and memantine have NMDA-antagonistic properties.
     
  10. imyourlittlebare

    imyourlittlebare Palladium Member

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    "cognitive enhancing" is a nice word that health stores on the internet and wikipedia toss around very loosely. Whats "cognitively enhancing" to someone with alzheimers disease is not necessarily going to have the same effects on someone younger and without the disease. NMDA receptors are the receptors responsible for learning. Very simplified explanation, physical changes here lead to memories being formed. Taking NMDA antagonists causes amnesia in higher doses. It blocks activity at these receptors. This is helpful for alzehimers bc of alterations in glutamatergic functioning, blah blah blah. But if one were to take the drug, its not going to be nootropic.
     
  11. Gradient

    Gradient Sentient alkaloid Staff Member

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    Structurally related does not necessarily imply the same thing as neuropharmacologically similar. Jasim was astute to clarify the structural difference here, regardless of the original meaning.

    The drugs do indeed seem to have a fair bit of similarities regarding receptor action - very cool, I wasn't aware of this! However, because memantine has been approved for treatment of moderate to severe (later) stages of Alzheimer's does not present sufficient evidence of overall cognitive enhancements in individuals not suffering from the disease. In addition, the potential approval for treatment of earlier stages of Alzheimer's implies combination with donezepil - and not alone. In other words: in people suffering from cognitive deficits, memantine offers potential cognitive enhancements - but there's no evidence suggesting it does the same in individuals without Alzheimer's Disease. The same might be argued for the 'racetam family; attenuation of age-related deficits in memory do not imply enhancements of memory in individuals without deficits. I'd love to see articles suggesting otherwise, however!

    The additional receptor activity of DXM unfortunately render it a suboptimal choice for cognitive enhancements. It seems to me that the individual is seeking a sustainable antidepressant - given attraction to its subtle euphoric properties. However, I personally find research of glutamatergic and cholinergic agents in the context of learning & memory to be quite interesting - and just because the 'memantine/DXM enhances memory in the young & healthy' study doesn't exist doesn't mean that it's not possible.

    It's simply important to note the absence of studies supporting cognitive enhancements by DXM. In fact, existing studies suggest quite the opposite; studies of cognitive impairments by long-term DXM use are available.

    From Impairments in water maze learning of aged rats that received dextromethorphan repeatedly during adolescent period:

    Granted, these conclusions are derived from large doses in rats. However, the overall action might be extrapolated to subtler inducements of deficits - rather than any enhancements - at lower doses.

    From Cognitive Deterioration from Long-Term Abuse of Dextromethorphan:A Case Report, the case report cited in the above study:

    In sum: it seems DXM unfortunately induces unsustainable changes in mood that render it suboptimal for cognitive/mood enhancement.
     
  12. Practical_Toker

    Practical_Toker Newbie

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    DXM is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
    Low doses my provide some cognitive enhancement and/or alleviation of A.D.D. symptoms.
    High doses cause NMDA antagonism and definitely don't aid?b v,÷≥b vc./"/.e in cognition.
    I'm not saying to take large amounts of dxm every day, but the people mentioned, who are "Prone to incomprehensible ranting, in utter denial that they might have problems," are daily RECREATIONAL users.
    Obviously a recreational dose of any drug every day will lead to problems down the road, but a low dose every other day would not create any foreseeable consequences.
     
  13. DipXset

    DipXset Silver Member

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    Since this thread SWIM told me he since discontinued his bi-daily low dose experiment, it left him with long lasting positive effects. I think even mild NMDA antagonism exists at 120 mg's or higher. SWIM read somewhere that NMDA antagonism upregulates dopamine and gaba, so he thought this could explain SWIM's improvement, not sure though. Also, SWIM states his memory is better than ever, with no need for choline or any other vitamin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  14. rayul123

    rayul123 Silver Member

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    Is not a solution to improve cognition capabilites with chemicals, if ur memory is improved now it wont last for ever, a healthy life , healthy food and using the brain are the best methods for cognitive improvement in my opinion
     
  15. Lukeoca

    Lukeoca Titanium Member

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    In My experience - DXM aids cognitive enhancement and verbal fluency in LOW doses - such as 30-40mg. This may be due to a SWIMrs tolerance / metabolism. He also felt like his 'old self' - like it breathed new life and old memories into him - He says the experience felt 'normal' but not necessarily excessively good - which made him wonder - what is he lacking?

    The taste of normality usually abates for swim and due to increasing dosage.
    In my experience it is useful as long as it is not used daily. My friend would be interested for you to contact swim via message to tell him your past/circumstances etc - and to compare, possible damages.

    Take care and good luck
     
  16. wtfMongoloids

    wtfMongoloids Newbie

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    I was born with a slight stutter; although so slight, it annoys and bothers him immensely. After he experienced two deaths in his immediate family within a one month span, he developed a more severe stutter. When I tried DXM for the first time he spoke fluently as he had always wished. Of coarse, this should not be considered as proof, it should be noted.
     
  17. Bryan_J

    Bryan_J Silver Member

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    A person has been working really consistent the past few weeks. He spends his mornings and afternoons in a body shop, and spent the afternoons and evenings splitting wood. He would be really sore at the end of the day but decide to stay up really late anyways. Throughout the week his energy level in the morning would be terrible.

    He decided on a monday morning to take 3 15mg DXM tablets, with some mouthfuls of water, before he started his daily routine at 7am. He found that by about 8am, his brain would be more active, therefore stimulating him, awaking him, and prepared him mentally for the morning ahead. He found that his thinking was very well focused, his thought patterns were straight forward but intelligent. He did this everyday that week, so he consumed 225mg of DXM throughout 5 mornings.

    He felt no ill effects. He does not usually eat in the mornings, but found himself having light snacks or a breakfast during those 5 days. He really enjoyed the way it seemed to start his day. The week after, he didn't bother taking any in the morning, sure it wasn't a huge difference, he sure did see the differences in how his body reacted in the mornings.

    Overall, no harm done. He is rather sensitive to drugs so that should be taken into consideration. If you have a high DXM toleration, he would say no. Simply because he doubts the low first plateau effects would be felt with such a high tollerence.

    If you already feel you have an addiction to DXM, do not do this, for obvious reasons.

    Hope he could shed some light on the subject. Sorry he can't be too technical about things. He's just going on his own experiences with small morning/daily doses.
     
  18. wtfMongoloids

    wtfMongoloids Newbie

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    I just asked SWIM, and he doesn't mind sharing that info.

    I took larger than the recommended dosage of DXM to aid a terrible cough. He felt quite unique to any previous feeling and enjoyed that feeling, as well. SWIM knew from back in high school that his friends previously took what they called crazy 8's of CCC. I'm assuming it was 8 pills of CCC. SWIM researched the various drugs in cough medicine and found it was the drug DXM those used to 'get high'. He went and bought a product of Vick's that contained 354mg of DXM and no other active ingredients. He took the bottle in 50% increments. After taking the first half, SWIM's roommate came into the apartment and SWIM hid the cough medicine as he felt embarrassed. SWIM engaged in a deep astrological conversation with his roommate and did not stutter at all. Note that this was after only 175mg of DXM. SWIM realized after his roommate went to sleep that he was speaking fluently during the entire conversation.

    I am going to a psychiatrist for the first time this week and will discuss his experiences with him/her. Hopefully more medically sound answers will be given.

    Hopefully this helped and I'll keep everyone posted.
     
  19. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    For my wild racoon DXM has done nothing to improve cognition. Though he only uses it in doses of 45mg to 60mg to increase Kratom's effects he notices that it actually seems to lead to worse cognition functioning, specifically in the memory department.

    Interesting to see the claims of cognitive enhancement with DXM because my racoon finds none, in fact this is the main reason why my racoon doesn't combine it with Kratom all the time because the memory recall sucks when my racoon is on it.
     
  20. LunarSpider

    LunarSpider Newbie

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    I agree when abused it all the time it will be a negative outcome

    I have always suffered from social anxiety/depression and found low doses daily or even only 2 trips a month would help him more mentally, then a anti depressant medicine ever would.

    May sound strange to you, but I believe his brain is performing normally when on a low doses of DXM. He can think more clearly, in a positive mood, and has general better outlook on life.