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Extraction - Misleading recipes for kratom tea are the norm on the web.

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by selfdestruct85, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    I have tried almost every variety of kratom and tried several different vendors. I have prepared kratom tea from almost every method you can find doing an internet search. But it was always in the back of my mind why so many of these instructions called for boiling. Even the recipe that is supposively quite stronger, where you mix the kratom with lime juice overnight and then only use a light boil at the very beginning of the process, followed by steeping. I am beginning to believe that NO BOILING should ever be used in the process of making this tea. For those of you who have made poppy tea, you use hot water at best. This is because plant alkaloids (the form of the chemicals in plants which are active ingredients) are so fragile to overheating and easily destroyed or lessened by too much heat. Soaking in the lime juice or lemon juice definitely will help the effects, as it lowers the acidity of the plant base to it's most rceptive state to release active ingredients. Boiling, however, it would seem is a surefire suicide to all of your hard work. I am going to toy with a few different methods from my own ideas. Different mixes of lime/lemon juice to kratom, and different lengths of steeping time. The only guideline is that there will be NO BOILING involved. I think this has become a viral form of internet bullshit and is not necessary, doing far more harm than good. Thoughts and suggestions appreciated. I am sure between all of us kratom lovers, we can come up with a more logical method.
     
  2. rawbeer

    rawbeer Titanium Member

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    You are correct that boiling isn't a good idea, but a light simmer doesn't seem to destroy the alkaloids in my experience. Most of the recipes I've seen on this forum call for a light simmer, with lemon juice or something acidic, and they work just fine.

    However I seldom make tea, I find it much simpler to take powdered leaf, mix it up with some grapefruit juice, or whatever juice I have on hand. I do this in a small jar and shake it up for a minute or so - stirring kratom into liquid is a bitch and this is much easier. Down it, put a bit more juice in and shake to rinse the sides off, down that, done.

    (Doing this with water always results in a disgusting kratom-filled soap like foam, I recall don't suggest it. And once I tried it with slightly flat coke...disastrous.)

    There are a ton of good recipes for preparing kratom on this site, check them out.
     
  3. trdofbeingtrd

    trdofbeingtrd Palladium Member

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    On GREAT advice I found here on the site, I have one way and one way only (change frightens me LOL) to enjoy my kratom. I get about three to four drinks (almost like sips) worth of orange juice or empty out half of a small orange juice bottle and mix my kratom then down the hatch. It's good you point out bad information that is everywhere online about kratom.

    On a side note but along subject of the thread in a way, I found that if I completely mix the kratom with the orange juice, it is far more powerful of an effect. I stir it enough so that I can drink it, then it seems to take it's time and not give me to much at one time. I have found every time I take 5-9 grams when it's mixed all the way, I get sick, throw up, and find out it's not fun at all.
     
  4. sweetleaf64

    sweetleaf64 Silver Member

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    Swim just tosses and washes kratom.

    Try a legit 30x extract. One gram of that tnw is all you need,
     
  5. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    I've never thought about trying it with just col juice before and no heat. I've also never actually searched any of the kratom recipes on here, just google. But every single recipe I've seen requires a "low boil" at some point. I am trying a simmer only method tonight to see how it goes. I also would think that doing the kratom with only cold juice wouldn't release enough alkaloids, I mean it needs heat just not boiling heat I believe. Warmth seperates oils. I will try the juice methods you guys have described though. I will let you know how my simmer only attempt #1 went after tonoigh. And I've tried the extracts, 80x, 50x, all that stuff. I personally think they are a waste of money, one reason being a tincture can be made at home, two being I don't notice a difference in effects and I don't mind drinking the powder. I'm a tequila fan so I can drink some nasty tasting shit as far as others are concerned haha

    selfdestruct85 added 12 Minutes and 57 Seconds later...

    Oh and slightly flat coke that is funny stuff haha. I've always wondered what it would be like with soda. Thanks for the heads up lol. This may sound odd but the absolute best mixer I have found is cranberry juice. OMG is that good with kratom I love it. It turns a normally bitter tasting tea into a dessert drink haha.

    selfdestruct85 added 2 Minutes and 21 Seconds later...

    Rawbeer, Off subject, but do you homebrew?

    selfdestruct85 added 42 Minutes and 30 Seconds later...

    Ok so here are my results. I AM VERY SATISFIED :)

    Wow this approach worked wonders. The best part is, if we all tweak with it a little, I'm sure it can be made better. So what I did was turn the burner on 3 on my electric stove. I let it heat up for about 5 minutes. I then stirred the water making sure I could see steam rise from the pan. I placed 5 teaspoons of red vein borneo kratom powder in the simmering water and stirred it until well mixed. I set my timer for 35 minutes. I let the burner remain on 3 for 15 minutes. I occasionally, throughout this entire process, gave the pot a good stir. After leaving the burner on 3 for 20 minutes, I then reduced the burner down to 2. I left it on 2 for another 10 minutes, stirred well and then reduced the burner setting down to 1. I left it on 1 for the last 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, I removed the pot from the burner and placed it on a cool burner to let cool. I stirred the pot well and let it sit for about 10 minutes, basically so that it was about the temp of nice hot bath water. I then mixed 1 and 1/2 teaspoons of lime juice into the pot and stirred well again. I let it sit another few minutes, and dumped it into my cup. I didnt have any cranberry juice so I just topped the cup off with a little OJ. This drink tasted a lot more bitter than other kratom teas I have made, I am hoping that is because a lot more alkaloids were released. I downed this drink slowly over about 10 minutes or so. AND I AM FRIGGIN LIT! I can't believe this worked as well as it did. This is the most elevated I have ever been off kratom, without a doubt. The best part is that it was the cheapest type I have ever bought as well, some simple commercial grade stuff. Plain red vein Borneo kratom powder. Wow. I am still in awe. You guys gotta try this. It will not dissapoint. A little time consuming but very very worth it. Tomorrow I am going to use this same method with the kratom I have in the fridge that is a paste, a mix of 5 teaspoons of kratom and about 2.5 teaspoons of lime juice. I am guessing this will be even more powerful than tonights tea. And I can't wait. Please give this a shot guys and let me know what you think! Thanks for reading, there are definitely some cool and knowledeable folks on this site and I appreciate all of your inputs!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  6. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Hi, im a kratom lover. Ive used Kratom for about 8 years.
    Im an advocate of boiling kratom tea.
    Im sorry you thinkthis bullshit, and presumably me a bullshitter.

    Kratom is not a poppy. Its alkaloids are not the same, just because poppies alkaloids are heat sensitive does not mean it is the same for kratom.

    If you are concerned about the heat then dont apply any at all. Mix it with cold juice and drink it. You body will extract the alkaloids just fine.

    I have made kratom tea using maybe a hundred different recipes, from steeping in cold water over night, to lukewarm water, to simmering and boiling. I have added many ingredients to the different temps of water to try and improve on the extractions.
    In my experience adding the juice of half a lime, or some lemon, to acidify the water and then doing a single or double boil for 15 minutes will produce the best tea.

    With an alcohol extraction i put the kratom and alcohol into a jar and submerse that in freshly boiled water. the alcohol has a lower boiling point so it too will boil. This has resulted in the best alcohol extract ive made.

    Ive been doing little experiments like this since i started using kratom and my results are similiar to many many others who have an active interest in finding new and better ways to take kratom and make kratom teas.

    Im sorry you think these actions and results are 'doing more harm than good', and all i can say is that kratom effects people differently, you might have to find what works best for yourself, but please do not be so dismissive and insulting to anyone else who has also made an effort and has tried to share their results for the benefit of others.
    Im also sorry you think my method is 'Illogical' but these methods have been used by the indiginous people for decades, if not centuries.

    Maybe you are right though. Maybe im an Illogical bullshitter doing more harm than good by spreading misleading information.

    BTW water boils and simmers at the same (or very similiar) temp. The difference is the amount of energy being used, ie a 'rolling boil' or a simmer 'a gentle boil'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2012
  7. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    An interesting query, given that the typical argument about making kratom tea revolves around solubility issues.

    Mitragynine:

    Melting point: mp 102-106° C
    Boiling point: bp5 230-240° C

    Mitragynine is stable at the temperature of boiling water. Morphine is not.
     
  8. FenixDelta753

    FenixDelta753 Silver Member

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    Just to clarify, this means that boiling (over 100 C) would be essential for extracting all of the Mitragynine?

    What about 7-OH? I believe that is considered the main alkaloid in Kratom now.
     
  9. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    A compound does not need to melt in order to be dissolved in water. I think including these numbers in my post was a bit of a red herring.

    The point to be made is that the OP is making a false assumption based, presumably, on the fact that kratom alkaloids affect the same opioid receptors as morphine, etc. That is jst about the only thing the chemicals have in common. Mitragynine and the other alkaloids found in kratom are, chemically speaking, completely different from the alkaloids found in poppies.

    Perhaps a good analogy would be cocaine and amphetamine. They both are stimulants affecting dopamine receptors, but the chemicals are entirely different and there is no reason to thin that they should share any physical characteristics such as decomposition temperature.

    I am not a chemist, so I will leave any further elaboration on this topic to those who know more than I.
     
  10. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    Not trying to insult anyone but I do think there are many many methods present with no basis. If the plant alkaloids are absorbed so easily with cold juice then why are there recipes that call for boiling for any amount of time? Why would the time of boiling give an effect on kratom's absorption at all if mixing with cold juice was just as effective? Another recipe that does not make sense is the overnight method where the kratom sits in the fridge overnight. The powder is combined with lime juice until a paste is formed and then spread in a thin layer on the bottom of a container. I actually think I got quite a bit higher simply adding the lime juice to a room temperature kratom preparation. A mixture that was, sorry, STEEPED on low heat, not simmered or boiled low. The temperature was only hot enough to make steam rise, but no bubbles ever. So until someone has direct evidence of the "best" method, they should leave titles like these out of their recipes, which yes, labels like the latter are the definition of bullshit. Trial and error is the only way I see working.
     
  11. Wayne Brady

    Wayne Brady Titanium Member

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    I think the biggest factor is just how tasty/convenient/practical the ROA is. I have seen many people swear by simmering and many people swear by eating it various ways. I have not witnessed a very big difference in potency either way. Either route seems to be pretty effective.
     
  12. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Not trying to insult anyone but I do think there are many many methods present with no basis. If the plant alkaloids are absorbed so easily with cold juice then why are there recipes that call for boiling for any amount of time?

    They are not absorbed easily with cold liquid, people use juice to help mask the taste an texture. Kratom requires no heat to be extracted, the body will extract it naturally. However heat is used if a person want to extract the alkaloids fast and into a liquid. With tea the alkaloids are already extracted into water and can be absorbed by the body quicker making for a stronger/faster initial hit.

    Why would the time of boiling give an effect on kratom's absorption at all if mixing with cold juice was just as effective?

    Some people prefare tea as a method of injestion. It hits faster.

    So until someone has direct evidence of the "best" method, they should leave titles like these out of their recipes, which yes, labels like the latter are the definition of bullshit.

    If it works best for the person who posted the thread then how can it be bullshit?
    How can there be a Best method for Everyone when some people dont like taking kratom certain ways? And when some people dont get stron effects from certain methods but others do?

    Just out of curiosity, how long have you been experimenting with kratom? Because you seem to have some ideas that are pretty strange for anyone who has been working and experimenting with kratom for a good length of time.

    Kratom does not need heat to be active, to activate it or to extract its alkaloids.
    But you can extract the same amount of alkaloids in boiling water in 15 minutes as you can in cold water over a few days.

    Its alkaloids are not the same as other plants, espicially the poppy.

    Heat does not damage its primary alkaloids, those responsible for its effects.

    The method of boiling it is one of the oldest, most widly used and for myself, as well as a whole heap of people in the kratom community, the favourite method, next only to a basic toss & wash (knocking kratom leaf/powder back with water/juice.

    These widly used methods are the result of trial and error. People have been using kratom in the west for over a decade. There are kratom forums and groups all over the internet who discuss this sort of thing and share information.

    Many of us have been experimenting with 'trial and error' for years and working with others to find the best methods for utilising this magnificant substance, please dont write these findings off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  13. MrG

    MrG Silver Member

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    Ok people, let's calm things down before someone starts breaking rules.

    The topic deals with a valid question and is being discussed appropriately, except for the parts where it is starting to look like people are getting a little too tetchy.

    Keep it civil, keep it relevant.
     
  14. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    Haha no rulebreaking will occur. The title bullshit was probably just a dumb situation of me not thinking again. Ianzombie is not being confrontational, atleast I don't think. He's actually enlightened me quite a bit. I've used kratom, by your standards, not long at all I would think. For about 6 months. Loved it right off the bat. I found out about it because I was experimenting with poppy seed tea and thought that was pretty cool. But kratom was suggested as an alternative so I tried it and thought it was much better. I guess different methods for different people makes good sense. I just know I've tried it every way listed I've seen and steeping it low heat with no boil ever has gotten me the most elevated. Correction I've never tried the cold juice method. That will be next on my list. I've also notice kratom tea seems more potent if I do not add the lime/lemon juice to the tea until it has cooled to room temperature. But I still feel there is a lot of science to some of these varying effects and am eager to learn more. Misleading methods may have been a poor way to label the recipes of others, but ultimately I would like to learn from others and congregate to maybe actually discover even more merthods as well as eliminate for certain any reccomendation that makes no difference in the preparation of kratom. Do you know if the double boil methods increase potency? I have tried it but noticed no difference over a single boil....
     
  15. Wayne Brady

    Wayne Brady Titanium Member

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    Adding citric acid after the boil defeats the purpose. It is supposed to help release the alkaloids from the plant. It is interesting that it seems to increase effects though. Is it really significant? Maybe you could do some more testing?

    Someone with some chemistry knowledge, is it possible this is forming a mitragynine (or other alkaloids) salt that would be more bioavailable?
     
  16. Shmeese

    Shmeese Silver Member

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    My experience with kratom is that is it is a good tea in certain ways. My preferred recipe for unboiled kratom always has something like yogurt or a probiotic to counteract the effect of the bacteria that may have gotten on the kratom in the manufacturing process. Other wise I get stomach cramps. I prefer a yogurt-kratom smoothie, with banana and some other fruit. The pseudo-opioid constipation is another worry altogether, however. It took two weeks before my body decided to fuck me over, but I hope your effects differ. There are certain effective ways to counteract that, but they are not very pleasant, and can lead to further problems. I think I would prefer chewing the whole leaves, but I don't know of a source for that.
     
  17. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    I am growing the plant so I have access to the whole leaves but have never tried chewing them thus far. So citric acid after the boil makes no difference? Hmm that would be weird, could be true, but I've done both ways enough that it would seem I've eliminated the chance for placebo effect. Yes, chemistry would help here definitely. I am actually thinking of pursuing pharmacology school in the near future haha so maybe I will be able to connect these differences with scientific evidence then. I wonder also if you could microwave it into tea hahaha. Never tried that one! THe only other drugI've tried kratom with is booze a few times, and also vicodin with the tea a couple times. There is definitely chemicals of some sort that haven't been tried yet that should increase the potency the alkaloids in kratom. And we should definitely find them out lol
     
  18. radiometer

    radiometer bananadine addict Platinum Member & Advisor

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    I suspect it would take a large amount of lemon juice to help with extraction, enough to make the tea difficult to drink. I use it simply because it makes the tea more palatable. I do add the lemon juice before the 2nd extraction on the theory that it can't hurt!

    @selfdestruct: I believe that if you had not used contentious words like "bullshit" in your original post, the tenor of this discussion would've been much more polite. Though I am glad to see that you were not offended by the ensuing discussion.
     
  19. selfdestruct85

    selfdestruct85 Silver Member

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    I agree with you radiometer I was just lifted off tea and excited haha
     
  20. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    I toss n wash mostly but boiling tea and lemon yield the best results strength wise plus it is oh so much easier on the stomach. I have an addiction problem with this stuff if i dong take a quick dose in the morning i simply cannot get my day started.
     
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