Discussion in 'Beta-Ketones' started by Richard_smoker, Feb 10, 2006.
below is fixed version
btw, that someone is nanobrain, you may have heard of him.
he reckons M1 E1 B1 n,n-DMT is the way to go, as his monkeys whispered.
Hi. I've searched all over the place, read a lot of great posts, but I still haven't quite found the answer to a question I have been pondering...
First, About METHYLONE:
Several others have commented on how methylone has a certain property
which makes the user want to do MORE... even when taking more and more and more doesn't even do anything to intensify the original feeling.
So, my question has to do with mixing the original dose and possibly the booster dose with a something ELSE like: a stimulant to extend the 'trip' or 'roll' and possibly make the drop-off less noticeable and just make the quick 3 hour high longer, more enjoyable.
I know that someone recommended a red-bull in place of re-dosing. But I cannot seem to finding any other info about using caffeine or any other similar compounds to enhance the experience: SO, here are some ideas that I came up with.
PLEASE: feel free to help me with these ideas. Don't *just* criticize me. Tell me WHY the idea(s) are stupid or worthless. I'm not claiming to be smart or a genius or whatever. these are all just ideas that I've had.
If no one will give me any feedback, then I'll probably just get my talking monkey pet to try them all, one-by-one and report back to everyone else how the experiences were. Also, if the monkey dies from something, I will dig a hole in my backyard, chunk him in there and stick a cross there that says "R.I.P. Bonzo. We'll miss you"... then I'll go get another monkey AFTER telling everyone not to dare mix X with Y.
IDEA: ~200mg methylone mixed with any of the following.
-Caffeine (?one or two no-doze--200mg caffeine in each)
-Dexedrine/adderall (anywhere from 10mg to 30mg)
-BZP or some other piperazine (I know--shitty hangovers)
-Ephedrine--so that the redose could just be ephedrine. seems to me and SWIM that ephedrine builds up on itself into a killer body high, with tingles?? this comes on for SWIM after often several redoses.
-Meth (?), (I haven't ever done crystal meth)
-MDPK or 4-FA-->but be warned: I have never even done ANY these--only heard of them. maybe they're terrible! but both are supposedly damn-decent stimulants
Others (not so-well researched). These are 'crazier' variations that I would REALLY appreciate feedback on. If you or You has experience, PLEASE POST!!
-MBDB (methyl-J). I tried this combo already. can't remember exact dose. good experience, like MDMA in many ways, but hard to tell what chem was what. good energy levels: (ok, couldn't stand still, much less sit. just pacing around, chain-smoking cigarettes), HUGE drive to talk about bullshit and love and links between every-fucking-thing imagineable, about relationships and girly shit like that. Definitely had empathogenic effects, and SEX was WAY up there on the mind...will write trip report later, maybe
-bk-MBDB (aka ethylone?)
-Ethylone (MDEA ketone?): 2-ethylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propan-1-one. Ethylone (supposedly) has a similar dose profile with methylone. Lasts a bit longer too. Dose: some say between 250-300mg. Duration: wavey & comedown around 3-4 hours
-J (BDB) -
-Butylone - sorry, can't recall the difference in this and mebylone--maybe they're the same??? GOD MY HEAD HURTS!
-Mebylone --2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butan-1-one. I know not much out about this; including its name. In fact, maybe I've already listed it as something else... if so, sorry. otherwise, it's food for thought.
-Ebylone-- 2-ethylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)butan-1-one. Don't know any SWIM who's tried this.
-5-meo-MIPT--I has never tried it, but it sure does sound PERFECT for this use!
-Ethyl-J -can't remember if anyone's tried this. shulgin doesn't know if it even works. Here's what shulgin says about this one:
DOSAGE: greater than 90 mg.
DURATION: probably short.
(65 mg) Perhaps aware at 20 minutes. Definitely aware at 45 minutes. Diffusing to nothing at 3-4 hours.
(with 90 mg) I am somewhere between 1 and +. And everything became lost in the evening with a couple of glasses of wine and talk that went on to 3 AM.
EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY: nothing higher has ever been looked at. If the analogy with the amphetamine counterparts (J with MDA, METHYL-J with MDMA, and this, with MDE) were to hold up (a drop of about a third in potency with the lengthening of the chain by a carbon atom), one might guess that this compound would be an interesting intoxicant, but probably not until you got up into the area at or above a 200 milligram dose. And that is a lot of chemical for the body to have to handle. Some day, maybe. -Shulgin
sorry, I'm too worn out to really finish this post. But after all, I don't really have any experience with tryptamines ANYWAYS! SWIM loves phens. As far as tryps, SWIM's only done AMT, Foxy, and 4-HO-DIPT. Other possibilities might include: 5-meo-mipt or 4-ho-mipt, AMT, or 5-meo-amt, 4-Ho-Dipt, 5-MeO-DMT, 4-Aco-Det, 5-meo-DALT
According to someone on another board, in regard to ethylone/methylone:
"Conclusion: negatives outweighed the positives on this one, said the monkey who is not keen on hard stimulation of its ageing cardiovascular system without the empahtogenic / entactogenic rewards. The monkey will not repeat, unless Ethylone is used to boost in case the lab is running low on Methylone. Yes, now the monkey knows what “MDMA without the fun” is all about. Which, come to think of it was just what MDEA on its own was like.
While MDEA is synergetic with MDMA, the monkey found the cathinone derivatives to act in a similar fashion.: all said and done, the negatives outweighed the positives on this one, said the monkey who is not keen on hard stimulation of its ageing cardiovascular system without the empahtogenic / entactogenic rewards. [SWIM] will not repeat, unless Ethylone is used to boost in case the lab is running low on Methylone. "
Another report dealing with ethylone, methylone, butylone combo:
"in retrospect i take that back about Ethylone not being worthy, i find it combines rather nicely with Methylone and Butylone at a ratio of 1 / 3 / 2."
Thanks for reading. Sorry for boring anyone out of their gord.
Thanks Nanobrain. I've heard of "him!" lol, seriously, thank you for helping me and from now on, I will just use this same format for everything. I can see where this format is actually way easier on the eyes. thanks for fixing this for me and thanks for the recommendation!
lol I've never taken cocaine but I've jokingly thought for awhile now that methylone must be the phenethylamine equivalent, except that taking more coke supposedly works. I actually had good luck once using a single booster dose (~50mg?) of bk-MDEA (ethylone) to kill the craving. It settled me down into a place where I was contentedly slowly coming down, without resorting to excess. I've tried following methylone with more methylone, with 2C-C, 2C-B, and MDMA followed by 2C-B, and they were all fairly disappointing. I dunno, some people report great combos w/ methylone, but I've found that either the methylone rides roughshod over whatever else I've taken, or if I get much effect from the other drug, it seems like it was rather wasted upon examination the next day. Maybe other good choices might lie in reasonable doses of other "feel-good" drugs such as kratom, opiates, benzos, etc.
Nice. Thanks Radio. That's EXACTLY what I was wondering about. I didn't know if it was just SWIM or what!
TOO FUNNY: "methylone must be the phenethylamine equivalent, except that taking more coke supposedly works."--that's gonna be my quote of the WEEK! hahaha... that's EXACTLY what it's like!!
I just asked SWIM. He said you are 100% CORRECT about the cocaine!!!
I haven't tried combining coke with methylone, but I think that it would overpower it. I've tried MDMA to extend enhance methylone, but it just enhanced the unwanted stimulation effects, and gave a me worse hangover. I no longer take amphetamines, but I think that as they are so much rougher than methylone, they would just obliterate it.
Methylone can combine well with low doses of PEAs (2C-B, 2C-I), or even trytamines, but as Radiometer says, the methylone will dominate the experience. However, this is not to extend the experience, but taken at the same time. Adding beta-ketones like bk-MBDB (butylone) is the same as taking more methylone-- the effect is not quite satisfactory.
Methylone is an MDMA analogue. If you take more MDMA the same thing happens-- a lot of stimulation and a bad hangover.
Kratom is a good thing to follow methylone with-- to lull you to sleep with a bit of euphoria.
Of course, more coke after coke works-- but that hateful jittery feeling is not good!
yes I've also inquired about this sort of combo. seems like everyone wants to find that magic combo that allows the m1 to last a little longer than the hour and 15mins of fun before the comedown. It's like a race once you know how it works. you do everthing you can in that short span. redosing seems to not be what you hope it will be.
swims predosed with both low levels of 2ci (10-12mgs) followed 2 hours later by 200mgs m1 and had okay results. he's done similar with high levels of 2cc(80mgs) followed 2 hours later with 280mg m1. he wished he had waited a little longer on the spacing of the later two. it was a high dose of 2cc and really he was tripping hard and feeling alot of nausea. he had planned to wait until later for the m1 but felt it would give him some relief. It did, it was beautiful for about an hour and 15 mins then he was back to baseline immediately. he dosed again an hour after that with 50mg 2cc. had some rebound for another3 hours but not that magic he felt on m1.
he would be willing to try a slightly higher dose of 2ci and wait until he started coming down to take the m1 next time. he is kinda curious if anyone has done doc and later taken m1. doc is fun but does get a little old after 4-6 hours. maybe the m1 would bring you nack to center.
I think any combo with amph's or methamph's probably would take the euphoric qualities of the m1 and leave you shakin with that much more insomnia.
as for the tryps, he's thinking maybe 5meomipt followed later with m1. seems like m1 can bring a great element but will throw on the brakes (for everything)when it's job is done. wouldn't mind hearing more on that though.
this is a very good topic
Thanks Inquire. I didn't realize much of this.
and to oldman, all I can say is wow! Thanks for the great suggestions
plenty of detail. I love this. Please re-explain what you meant when you first mentioned predosing. The word "both" threw me off. I assumed that you meant that you PRE-dosed methylone by 2 hours with the 2c-i and not that you took "both" methylone and 2c-i as your predose for the 200mg methylone 2 hours later. Is this correct?
This idea of predosing with PEAs is something that I have been curious about and had many ideas of how to best plan. It's the damn, god-awful PRICE of the methylone that has restricted SWIM in his experiments. I've almost come to a conclusion that it's just too damn expensive for his research... and a shame also because he thinks that he should get some NOW while he still can! You know???
It's ridiculous, in fact. The only reason costs are so high is because of supply and demand--right? or perhaps manufacturers know that this will probably be taken away from us soon, and so why bother backlogging their stockpiles with soon-to-be banned compounds?
Either way, it sucks. Sucks to be SWIM. sucks to be any of us who can see a great deal of wonderful therapeutic potential for this compound!
sad, but 'tis life. anyways, thanks for the input. I'm entering it into my pet monkey's databank of possibilities... right next to his christmas wishlist that santa might never even see.
I do have ONE positive thing to say, however.
On a different note:
Background info: I do NOT partake in marijuana. Ever. He's too scared of drug-tests, etc, and the whole pot experience was easily placed behind him years and years ago, while in the necessary pursuit of career goals, putting food on the table, etc.
HOWEVER, last night: SWIM dosed tiny amounts of methylone by dabbing some onto his tongue every 30-45 minutes (totalling about 150mg TOPS--that is, about 30mg per lick). He never 'felt' anything even after about 2.5 hours of this activity.
Then he did something very unusual for him. A friend gave him a present--one beautiful bud of the most fragrant and kind variety. After I smoked the bud, he SUDDENLY started to feel the m1!!!! All over his body, reminding him of days past, when pot re-instituted an LSD trip afer it was all over (for example).
This made the ensuing 5-8 hours of non-sleep absolutely incredible. Out came the empathogen. Out came the euphoria. Out came NYSTAGMUS (not much, just felt good when swim gave in to the tiniest of urges to jiggle his eyeballs). And, out came the familiar muscle contractions from arms, legs, feet, hands... In a small way, his life was re-evaluated for the better. He began to look at himself and his life, not as meaningless, but in a brief "chemically-induced" kind of way, he loved himself again. Not to sound cheesy or like a superficially emotional person, but there's a lot to say about these realizations; and their effects carry on long after the drug subsides... and probably more good stuff, just all he could think of at the moment.
in quick terms: he finally felt that special something that he was searching for in the m1. not too much. not too intense. he could still do anything he needed, could have even visited his grandmother or gone shopping if he had wanted to. But that feeling/experience so familiar to xtc was still there, and it lasted for several wonderful hours. He's not sure how many hours because time slipped away from him and it was suddenly 2:00am.
oh, and btw, I know that this is just 'one of those things' that everyone just instictively 'knows' about MJ, but to me, it seriously came STRAIGHT out of left-field. the effects are baffling to me now--even though I was once a continuously stoned individual--and his mind knows these things already--perhaps that "knowledge" was more like a text-book knowledge than an actual, recent experiencial (sp?) knowlege.
good post, and to answer your question I usually takes the other phenethyl first and the m1 second. most phenethyls like the 2cx's take about 2 hours to peak for him. I don't know if they really help the m1 or extend it but by itself m1 is usually too short for a evening of fun and the others (in small doses) can be a good prelude for an m1 experience. swim also beleives what enquirewithin says that m1 will dominate any experience. that's precisely why he doesn't chose to take it simultaneously with anything else. it will also usually extinguish everything else you had taken before when it's done.
as for your exp. with mj and m1. mj definitely is not an inhibitor of the action of m1 (for swim), but I say he usually will let the m1 do it's job for an hour before going for the smoke. he doesn't like to let anything get in it's way of doing it's job if he can help it. alcohol has shown maybe some promise. maybe these things just inebriate you enough to not jones as bad when the m1 tails off.
mj is a stimulant and if you smoked alot years ago and stopped and someone gave you a really sweat bud, it definitely would trigger what you had. I find that an advantage of not smoking so much all the time. makes it seem more introspective and fun than just dumbing out and going to bed.
m1 should be a good candidate for concerts or shows because of it's short duration, quick onset, and insomnia properties (for the drive home).
some people really get a lot out of lower doses of m1 but swim after trying a 280mg dose has no urge to go under 250 again. he really never felt anything on a low dose. maybe some excitablility but nothing much. at 220 he felt a little more intoxication, some positives but again nothing to go on and on about. he read about the 250mg threshhold here changing the experience alot and it was true for him. he has not tried redosing at that level yet. most things he's read about it are not real positive.
his dosage on this rc is funny because nearly any phenethyl (other than e) he has found is bothersome at high levels and therefore is usually conservative on them. they each seem to have a certain quality of there own that can be realized at low levels he says. m1 though is a whole other deal though.
As I mentioned before, there were a lot of threads and posts on doc a few weeks back. can't beleive someone hasn't tried that combo yet. and yes guys I have tried TFSE. I will not agree that doc was the soma that all the talk was about. it was okay he said but after a while it just gets old. seems like a jolt of m1 might just be the ticket out.
several weeks ago in a dream I took a very high dose of 2cc (80mgs) and after about 2-2.5 hours it was really more than he was wanting to handle in the setting he was at. so he took 280mgs of m1 and was basically wisked to the front of the line and in 20 mins had the warmest, coziest, loved uprush he had ever felt. he and mrs swim were in a cab going to the next club and he seriously tought he might have to do her in the back. he's usually kinda shy about that stuff but I guess this being a dream and all things were different. he's hoping to have a dream someday about a lower dose of 2cc (40-50) followed by m1
until then dream on
Nice! Excellent. Thanks oldman. That's great. I appreciate your clarification. It makes perfect sense--and the bit about m1 overpowering the experience... no offense to anyone, but I guess my mind's filter just ran right over that comment, telling myself "No way... it couldn't REALLY overpower anything... i mean, it's so subtle anyways, how could it possibly overpower something else??"
I will try the DOC combo soon. I think that the only thing standing in his way is the work week coming up. This sounds absolutely brilliant, as my SWIM agreed that DOC wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, albeit a great compound, definitely active!
Thanks so much all for helping to shed light on this burning topic.
doc is a great compound. swim just hasn't really figured out for what yet though. he's not had a real good environment or time capsule in which to really let it go. m1 seems to be like a good emergengy exit for anything that can get a little too long. better have some sleep aids is all
What Oldman says about pre-dosing with PEAs/ tryptamines is exactly right, otherwise you can end up coming down from the best part of the M1 whilst peaking on the psychedelic, which can be uncomfortable! The best combination I've found for M1 is 2C-B.
IMO I would always smoke with M1, as it really brings out the effects, but it does make you more introverted. It's a shame bk-MBDB has gone because I preferred it to M1.
so enquire you had a little typo and I just want to make sure I get the context right. You're saying that you agree about not taking m1 first because the fall from the m1 and the climb of another phenethyl is uncomfortable--I'm inclined to agree if that is what you are saying.
and the 2cb combo you mention, would I be correct in assuming You does the 2cb first. Just checking cause I remember old man shulgin mentioning 2cb as a chaser with mdma in helping extend the action of the mdma, and I just want to make sure that is not what you are saying. as much as everyone would like to figure out how to make m1 more mdma like I think as you mentioned earlier that it is able to overide anything else. I think of m1 as like a parachute. it's a relief when it opens, feels good floating to earth but it'll all be over shortly now when your feet hit the ground. unfortunately 2cb is not available in swims area.
wonder why bk-MBDB is not available now?
Sorry, I am typing too fast! When I talk about a 2C-B combo and M1, I am saying you should pre-dose with 2C-B. I know what you men about Shulgin and the MDMA/ 2C-B combo, with the 2C-B being administered afterwards. (I wouldn't do that either, because I get unpleasant crashes with MDMA to the point that I rarely take it any more.)That might work with M1, but I doubt it-- anyway my aim is pleasure rather than insight, I have to admit! I think 2C-I works just as well as as 2C-B in this context. 2C-C is also OK, but less exciting.
The climb of a psychedelic combined with the crash from methylone is not comfortable. I remember making that mistake with 5-MEO-DIPT and ending up in a state which was bizarre and not desirable.
You are right, M1 is like a parachute-- it will 'smooth out' psychedelics in a very pleasant way.
I don't think that there is any real way of extending the M1 roll. You can take a lot more and it does sort of work, but it never has the the same effect as the first dose, and it works out very expensive (now that 'Explosion' has gone).
IMO, bk-MBDB seemed to last a bit longer, and was nore intense, but there was never enough to experiment with much. The only vendor ZI know of that sold it only stocked it once.
I hope it re-merges, but maybe others didn't like it as much I did!
yeah I will confirm the 2ci and 2cc combo w/ m1 (about 2 hours later) is good. the m1 can shake some of the nasty after effects of the 2ci. Just figure that you shouldn't take the m1 until about 2 hours before you want to come down I think. because that's about the life of a strong dose of m1. after that the only thing you probably want to consider I say is a few ambien or xanax. only way to avoid the m1 crash really.
Thanks oldman. I am very VERY excited about your advice. I think I'm going to put you on my buddies list.
This kind of help is totally invaluable and I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. Money isn't something that SWIM can just throw around. As SWIM loves both 2ci and methylone, he is very excited to read your post.
thanks a lot and take care.
SWIm has used methylone around a couple dozen times so far and it REALLY is the most fiendy substance out there apart from cocaine...
I have combined it with MDMA on 3 or 4 occasions and won't do this any more. he has also combined it with mj (which is fine) and with alcohol (beer!), which also works extremely well unless you drink too much. It also enhances teh hedonistic aspect (and thus teh comedown) and the spiritual aspect is mosty lost. Still, fun!
He has also combined it with 2C-C (2C-C first, and the M1 an hour into it) and it was not fun. For two hours it was all good and then a weird tiredness set in in both SWIM and his monkey friend, a dysphoria stronger than before (SWIM sometimes gets dysphoric comedowns with M1, especially when combining, it seems... sometimes the same day, sometimes only after a day or two... erratic really!). WIth the 2C-C combo SWIM reckons the reason might be that the M1 was added too early, and that the 2C-C was still working, enhancing the comedown. perhaps teh tiredness also came from the fact that 2C-C has slightly sedating properties.
Finally, last weekend, SWIM came home slightly drunk and just HAD to have some 7mg 5-MeO-Mipt. 2 hours into it it seemed that adding some 200mg M1 would be fun... 100 first... 20mins later the other 100 because it felt so good... yep, you can imagine where this is leading ...I have previously done 500mg+ of M1 in one night while drinking and didn't want to make the same mistake again... so, on to other drugs. Stupidly, SWIM added just ONE zaleplon sleeping pill.... only to watch himself snort and eat 2 or 3 more on autopilot over the next hour or two... during this time he also managed to go thru his stash and snorted 60mg of DPT and drank 0.5g of GHB (not more than that, no matter how whacked, SWIm has some survival instinct). Smehow he noticed that during his waking dream he must have also taken 120mg of E1 (bk-MDEA aka ethylone) and about 80mg of MDMA ... the experience was WAY out of this world and went from pleasureable to confusing to dreamlike to non-existent.... the next day he was off work, luckily, and when he woke up (in his bed, even... well done!) he felt so tired he just lounged about and then went back to sleep and the day after that he was fine... feeling stupid, really. It was like he imagines a datura trip... there seemed to be this huge party at his house, etc... without any of the fear, and he wonders if it's because of who he is that he behaved so irresonsibly or because of the alcohol, the M1, or the zaleplon.
This is just a short cautionary tale, really, about fiending on methylone, though I feel that the alcohol and the zaleplone may also have contributed.
yeah, I has tried 2cc w/m1. not the greatest. he had taken a large dose of 2cc (80-90mgs). much more than he had ever before. was a little rough on the body. took the m1 two hours later felt wonderful, problem is it only lasted maybe 30 mins at peak and then he felt pretty beat-up. he did 50mgs 2cc again 2 hours later and felt a little rebound. nothing great though. maybe less 2cc (40-50mgs) take the m1 at sometime no earlier than 2 hours. would be like a good end to the one experiece. I has done the same with low doses of 2ci (10-14mgs) and liked the experience more. m1 one seems to rescue you from the comedown of the initial chem. he suggests as always to have sleep aids of course.
SWIM hates teases, and M1 is the worst tease ever next to crack !
I have combined with 4FA and found that, like adding more M1 later, it just makes things speedier. In fact, 4FA has been pretty disappointing so far. The low dose 5meo-mipt sounds like a great suggestion, and also maybe some 2cb-fly..
SWIM gave up on MDMA a while ago because it was too habituating and had no real purpose once SWIM lost the initial magic quickly. I went through the same thing with M1 within several doses. It does call to SWIM every so often, but lack of availability has protected SWIM from overindulging, or even indulging at al. I plan maybe in the future to try the 1/2 and 1/2 methylone/ethylone combo. Hopefully that'll give the M1's effect some legs ?