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Dose - More on 4-AcO-DMT

Discussion in 'Tryptamines' started by squeezix, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. squeezix

    squeezix Titanium Member

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    AFOAF has 4-aco-dmt freebase. He wants to know what the dosage on this would be as compared to the hcl. He is pasting some info from an earlier post so he has an idea. Now if he has found 26mg from hcl to be his sweet spot, how would he deduce dosage from this tidbit:

    And what is the difference chemically between these three? My friend doesn't understand how Coolio came up with these numbers.
     
  2. fatal

    fatal

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    It is true that the freebase is the most potent of the three by weight. I am not so sure about the numbers though. The fumarate should be most stable.


    :joint:
     
  3. squeezix

    squeezix Titanium Member

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    Okie, how unstable is the freebase? Will it keep for a couple of months in the freezer, amber jar, still in plastic, packed with silica-gel? AND is it a sticky oily freebase like DMT? Or is it powdery?
     
  4. Phenoxide

    Phenoxide Super Moderator Staff Member

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    That's probably the best bet. If possible it'd probably be best to have several layers of plastic and glass as well as the silica to make sure none of the freezer humidity gets in. Nonetheless keep an eye out for signs of deterioration (e.g. bluing).

    If it's high purity it should be powdery. DMT only tends to be oily because it's generally a crude plant extract.
     
  5. torachi

    torachi Palladium Member

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    Is it true that the freebase degrades into psilocin, and then degrades to inactivity?

    What are the chances of the freebase material degrading into an illegal substance during transport?
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  6. fatal

    fatal

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    Yes it is true. The chances of 4-ACO-DMT degrading to a controlled substance during transport are very high. This is because if the sample tests positive for any amount of psilocin it all, legally speaking, becomes psilocin of X% purity.


    :joint:
     
  7. squeezix

    squeezix Titanium Member

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    How long does degradation take? I mean it is winter time, but my buddy lives in the tropics and this stuff gets shipped 5000 miles snail mail.

    P.S. This stuff was synthesized in the past few weeks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2010
  8. fatal

    fatal

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    It is likely that any sample of 4-ACO-DMT that goes through shipping is going to contain some amount of psilocin in it. Under perfect storage conditions it may not even degrade at all. But nothing is perfect. It's not the worst impurity to have. It would be totally fine if not for the legal implications. The chemical psilocin is banned in many countries.


    :joint:
     
  9. Felix Machina

    Felix Machina Silver Member

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    Is the fumerate salt much more stable then I take it and needn't be stored under freezing conditions?
     
  10. torachi

    torachi Palladium Member

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    So are the chances just as good to have psilocin of X% purity when transporting the 4-aco-dmt salt?
     
  11. fatal

    fatal

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    Your sample would simply be impurified with psilocin. In this case because of the chemical mixture containing some percentage of psilocin you can be prosecuted as though it were all psilocin.


    :joint:
     
  12. squeezix

    squeezix Titanium Member

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    Does this affect potency? Just in doing the math, it seems I would have a better deal on a gram of freebase as opposed to a gram of fumarate.
     
  13. fatal

    fatal

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    4-HO-DMT(psilocin) and 4-ACO-DMT are roughly equipotent so it would not effect potency so much. The freebase is better if you like lower doses and therefore more mileage.

    :joint:
     
  14. reformer

    reformer

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    Bunk numbers in above calculations!

    I believe that this may be incorrect... Potentially leading to OVERestimation of the quantitiy of fumarate required to produce an amount equal to some target amount of freebase.

    Whereas the hydrochloric salt consists of equal parts 4-AcODMT and hydrochloric, the fumarate salt instead consists of 2 4-AcODMTs for every 1 fumarate. This is because fumarate is a divalent anion and carries two negative charges. Thus one fumarate can neutralize two 4-AcODMTs each carrying one positive charge.

    Here is an accurate depiction of the conversions:

    4-AcODMT: mw = 246
    Hydrochloric acid: mw = 36
    Fumaric acid: 116

    1) Hydrochloric salt:

    The formula
    1 X (4AcODMT) + 1 X (HCl) = Chloride salt

    The masses
    246 + 36 = 282

    The percentages
    87.2% + 12.7% = 100%

    2) Fumaric salt:

    The formula
    2 X (4AcODMT) + 1 X (Fumaric acid) = Fumarate salt

    The masses
    492 + 116 = 608

    The percentages
    80.9% + 19.1% = 100%


    So, for 1000 mg of solid powder that someone receives, if they have the HCl salt, they will be getting 872 mg of 4-AcODMT freebase. If they receive the fumarate salt they will be getting 809 mg of freebase.

    Thus, the "freebase-equivalents" of the chloride salt is equal to 1.15 (consume 1.15 mg of chloride salt for every 1 mg of freebase you want to dose).

    The "freebase-equivalents" of the fumarate salt is equal to 1.24 (consume 1.24 mg of chloride salt for every 1 mg of freebase you want to dose).

    I hope this helps accurate dosing!

    If anyone used the bunk numbers from the above quote for the fumarate salt, they would be getting 60% MORE 4-AcODMT than they intended.

    There is actually 1618 mg of 4-AcODMT in each 2000 mg of fumarate salt... NOT 1057 mg 4-AcODMT like that quote said. Shudder... That could be quite disastrous to say the least!


    BTW... swims labradoodle just contacted their supplier of the fumarate salt and they confirmed that ~80% by weight is 4-AcODMT, as I indicated above in my calculations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2010
  15. nibble

    nibble Titanium Member

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    ^ Exactly, fumaric acid is trans-butenedioic acid, a dicarboxylic acid (i.e. it contains two carboxylic acid groups). Essentially meaning it's two acids in one moleule, if you want to put it like that..
     
  16. reformer

    reformer

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    A guy at the bus stop, name of Birkenstock, told me he is working up a way to get his trypatmine RCs into a citrate salt form. Citrate is a tri-carboxylic acid that is prominent in our metabolic "TCA" cycle, and which he thinks might provide a nice counter-ion to (for example ) 4-OAc-DMT.

    So, in that case, the citrate will neutralize 3 4-OAc-DMTs and the ratio of tryptamine to acid molecules will be 3:1 instead of 2:1 for fumarate or 1:1 for hydrochloric.

    Birkenstock is interested as to whether insufflation of the citrate salts is less horrible than the other salts.

    I told Birkenstock that sounds pretty cool, and to update me when he is finished...
     
  17. gargravarr

    gargravarr Titanium Member

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    Swim had a dream he obtained a quantity of 4-aco-DMT freebase and proceeded to dilute it in distilled water for measuring purposes as he usually does his phenethylamines. A little bit of the powder didn't end up dissolving, but something else odd happened. The water turned a dark murky color, almost black. What is the cause of this?? Is it still safe to dose? Swim attached a picture of what it looked like in the dream...
     

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  18. Phenoxide

    Phenoxide Super Moderator Staff Member

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    How long has the compound been in solution? 4-AcO-DMT is reported to be unstable in aqueous solution. This dark coloration is generally not seen with pure 4-AcO-DMT and is believed to be an indication of degradation to psilocin and other breakdown products. Psilocin itself is notoriously unstable, so this coloration may be an indication that the tryptamines in solution are rapidly degrading.

    More information on this specific phenomenom can be found here: 4-AcO-DMT (4-acetoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, psilacetin) Drug Info
     
  19. gargravarr

    gargravarr Titanium Member

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    That makes sense. It didn't take but an hour for the water to darken. It has been only a day since. Swim reports it is still active however.