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Addiction - My Kratom abuse and adverse effects vs. the benefits I receive from Kratom

Discussion in 'Kratom' started by bubjo66, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. bubjo66

    bubjo66 Newbie

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    YES THIS IS A LONG POST BUT PLEASE READ ALL OF IT, IM
    TRYING TO GIVE YOU GUYS THE FULL STORY WITH ALL THE DETAILS
    Hey guys, this is my first post ever on this forum so forgive my if I missed and didn't follow a protocol, I have been a long time reader of this forum site though. The timing for this post comes in a time where I may be suffering the negative adverse effects from long-term daily and heavy Kratom use. I can't put an exact date on it but I think I started using Kratom in around January of this year (2015). But when I first started I only used it around once or twice a week, sometimes going a few weeks without using it at all. I first started using it for the mild yet pleasurable high it gave. I couldn't really nod off like I could with Vicodin as I would vomit before I could ever reach that point. I soon began to find out however that Kratom was a very effective tool to help manage my social anxiety. There are other drugs that have helped to manage my social anxiety in the past and help me feel more comfortable and come out of my shell more and socialize and talk more such as marijuna, MDMA, alcohol of course, and Klonopin. Until now Kratom has had the best risk vs. reward in terms of being a drug that can manage my social anxiety while at the same time not have any negative short term or long term effects such as addiction, withdrawals. I want to say around February or March I started using Kratom anywhere from 2 times a week to 7 times a week. Kratom helped me a lot with being able to socialize better worth people, friends, and girls since it helped ease my physical anxiety I get in social situations. During this time I never really experienced many negative effects from Kratom other than vomiting when I occasionally took too much. Around April or May, I started using Kratom more or less on a daily basis, about 4-7 times a week, with occasional breaks of a few days to two weeks for my tolerance to go back down. Interestingly, when my tolerance is at my highest, I find that my stomach can tolerate a lot more Kratom and I don't get as naseous and as a result am able to nod off a little when I take enough Kratom. This usually happens when I go on a Kratom binge. Currently I am finding myself in a little pickle where I know I should only take Kratom in situations that provoke anxiety, rather than just for pleasure and to nod off, in order to keep my tolerance down and physical withdrawals at a minimum. For the past two or three months I have been taking Kratom pretty much every day, occasionally taking a day or two break. In the past month I have found that when I don't have kratom for even 24 hours, I experience physical withdrawal symptoms. The biggest and most unpleasant symptom is a general aching And unpleasant feeling of my muscles, mainly in my legs but also in my arms. Additionally, I have a little insomnia, a runny nose and sneeze a lot and a general feeling of sadness and depression. These symptoms continue for about 3 days after my last Kratom dose. I pretty much have to take a minimum one week but preferrably two week break for me to take Kratom without experiencing withdrawal symptoms and craving the next day. I know this has been a long post but I wanted to give you all the details of my Kratom experience. This week I tried for the first time instead of just going cold turkey, tapering my doses off to begin my two week Kratom break. Basically I am asking and want to know will I be able to keep up this daily use of Kratom and not find myself in trouble with even worse mental or physical effects than before I began Kratom. I know Kratom addiction and withdrawals are a lot less severe than true opiates like Oxycodone or heroin, But I am still worried that maybe eventually this heavy Kratom use will catch up to me, as I now finding out that Kratom physical wothdrawaks do exist and are real, even if they aren't as serious as heroin withdrawals. I would like to know your guys' input if you have any knowledge on the subject on if you think Kratom could impact my long term physical health (liver, heart, whatever) and mental health (further anxiety and other psychological disorders). I really do not want to stop using Kratom as I have found it extremely helpful for Social anxiety and just now Im finding out some of the negative effects of Kratom. These negative effects have so far been manageable with taking breaks from Kratom and so far have not outweighed the positive effects of Kratom. PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR HELP, ADVICE AND SUPPORT. I know this has been a long post, just trying to explain as best I can.
    Thank you and peace and love to all of you
     
  2. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Hi, welcome to the site :)

    Kratom can be great for things like anxiety and depression but usually only when used once or twice a week, when kept to a low dose or when you are new to it.
    Many people have found that with regular use eventually the positive effects slowly fade and you are left with negative affects as a result of taking too much, addiction or due to tolerance issues.

    If you can keep your use to once or twice a week at most, or if you can keep your daily use to a very small amount (a couple of grams) then you can usually continue to use kratom and benefit from its positive effects. Unfortunately not many people are able to do this, much like with any other addictive drug.

    There is no evidence that daily use, even in large doses, can cause any physical problems. There have been a few people who have reported liver issues but in all the cases i have read about those people were either poly-drug users or had existing issues.

    If you read through the forum and the addiction forum you will find plenty of details of the negative effects that come from abusing kratom, but you will also find plenty of posts from people who maintain a sensible use approach that have benefited from kratom.

    My own personal history with kratom has fallen in and out of both extremes. I would consider myself an addict but i do not over do things and it in no way affects my daily life negatively. Basically i am comfortable with my position.
    For some people just coming to terms with their use can stop a lot of what are mostly psycholigical issues related to 'addiction'

    If you can keep your dose low then you should not have to deal with any of the negative effects that come from large daily doses. I would certainly go through withdrawals if i was to stop cold turkey but i know that if i taper then i can avoid most of the symptoms and unless i was suddenly faced with a situation where i had to go without kratom all of a sudden than i have little to worry about, so i am at peace with my addiction.

    I am not saying that being addicted is a situation that people should care less about, it is never ideal, but if you have genuine reasons for taking kratom and it is making your life easier in terms of issues like anxiety/depression etc then you need to weigh up the pros and cons, just like you would with any prescribed and addictive medication.

    I would always recommend kratom as a last resort however, the tried and tested combinations of exercise, diet, sleep, therapy etc. are always top of the list, self medication should not be something that you go fo, at least not without ruling out everything else first

    Many people, including myself, got great results from kratom initially when taking it for anxiety/depression only to have it turn on us and make issues worse after prolonged use.
     
  3. DrugsAreHellDrugsAreGreat

    DrugsAreHellDrugsAreGreat Newbie

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    Is there any supplements that can be taken in combination with Kratom which make the Kratom work for longer term use?

    DrugsAreHellDrugsAreGreat added 6 Minutes and 48 Seconds later...

    My fish has ruled out basically everything else and doesn't want to mess with street drugs/pharm narcotics anymore. My fish wants to find a way to use Kratom daily. I don't want my fish to be high all day, I just want him to be happy and anxiety free. I've heard that grapejuice, diphenhydramine, and valerian root can potentiate Kratom. Could they make Kratom work every day?

    DrugsAreHellDrugsAreGreat added 3 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

    My fish is also trying to cut back on hay too because he finds it only creates more anxiety, depression and mind fog.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  4. bubjo66

    bubjo66 Newbie

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    Thanks ianzombie for you informative response. It definetly is making me think about lowering my Kratom to no more than 3 times per week. I know you said one or two, but I was able to manage my use pretty good back when I was using just 3 times a week. It wasn't until I started using everyday that I started having problems. I've also been thinking a lot about the "less is more" part of Kratom. I notice when I take large doses of Kratom, while on the come up when the effects start to kick in, I feel the energizing and euphoric effects of Kratom. Somewhat of a cerebral high. I definetly feel like talking and connecting with people more than usual. But as I continue on the come up and more of the Kratom starts to take effect, I get into the more opiate-like effects of Kratom with the sedation, and I don't feel like socializing as much, just wanna sit there and enjoy the high. I sometimes even feel that with higher doses of Kratom the euphoria is less than with lower doses. But I might just attribute that to the lower dose creating a stimulating effect that makes me more excited and happy to do things, so I almost think lower doses of Kratom create almost a natural euphoria because of the energizing effects if that makes sense in addition to the euphoria from the Kratom itself. So my thinking is that if I keep my Kratom doses low enough so I stay in the range of the stimulating effects that it will not only aid in the management of my anxiety better than the high doses of Kratom, which really just make me tired and less likely to socialize, that it will also keep my tolerance down and keeping negative effects of addiction down that come with raising your dose as a result of tolerance. Your post is also making me think about excercising better and having a better diet, since right now my diet is very poor because I don't eat for long periods of time to maintain an empty stomach so the Kratom will take effect fast. I have been through therapy many times for anxiety and depression, and am currently in the middle of a sort of self-therapy to help manage my anxiety and the negative thoughts and self-judgement that comes with social anxiety. The Kratom definetly helps though to manage the physical anxiety I feel in social situations and also helps mentally to motivate me to talk and connect with people when I take lower doses, like I said above.

    Also I have a question for you do you think long term Kratom use can create worse psychological issues such as paranoia or schizophrenia? I read on Erowid about a study of Kratom users in Thailand and after many years of heavy and daily use of Kratom some of the users showed symptoms of paranoia and schizophrenia I believe it was, if I'm remembering what I read correctly. I have noticed and this is only after days where I was basically binging on Kratom all day and had taken over 30 grams in that day that at the end of the day when I started to come down off the Kratom I would get very anxious and most to a paranoid point, and my hands would be sweating a lot and shaking. I would have to smoke some weed to help calm myself down. Keep in mind this has only happened a couple times on days that I just way over did it on Kratom.

    But basically do you know of any long term psychological problems that can come from long term Kratom use?
     
  5. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    My experience with long term kratom use (3 years with a one month break, I'm actually loosing track to be honest but it's been a long time) is that there are several negatives for me:
    - I'm actually more tired (vs more energy when using kratom sparingly)
    - require dosing every morning to function normal
    - cognitive functioning seems to be on a decline, my brain seems more foggy than usual
    - 4 to 6 hours of not using results in the beginning of withdrawals requiring 3 doses per day the initial withdrawals involve yawning like crazy and feeling very tired...two symptoms that are very hard to deal with during a work week. I cant just sleep it off.
    - no euphoria, attempting to take more usually makes me dizzy or nauseated

    So yeah kratom is great short term but it can sneak up on you and put you in a situation where you're taking it just to feel normal. You use to block out negative symptoms and that's it.

    It's very important to use on a non regular basis if you want the best results, for me more than 2 times a week is where I started to fall in a hole.
     
  6. iguasu

    iguasu Silver Member

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    DiabolicScheme,
    3 doses/day of how many grams per dose?
    And what kind of kratom, please.
    Red, green or white?
     
  7. DiabolicScheme

    DiabolicScheme Titanium Member

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    I switch but my primary types are green vein Malaysian and Red Vein Borneo.

    Typically I just use a heaping spoonful which measures out to 6 - 8 grams (using a scale). I use two spoonfuls occasionally. I usually get nauseated/dizzy when I take a dose too close to my last one.
     
  8. Cilonen

    Cilonen Silver Member

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    Man, this post could have been mine. I can relate to everything. I'm taking Kratom daily for over 2 years now (with about 2 months brake) and i'd have to add some really awkward points i personally experience:

    -Start to feel nervous and socially anxious or uncomfortable in general after not taking Kratom for over 6h.
    -sometimes waking up after 6h sleep and needing to take one spoon (about 3g) to keep sleeping immediately.
    -when i'm with a girl it's quite awkward to Toss and Wash some Kratom every now and then, and it's often enough to not being able to hide that i have a problem with this.
    -Having anxiety and already feeling like shit when you forgot your Kratom at home and now you have to survive without it for a couple of hours, feeling like you can't enjoy anything without it, which is depressing.
    -No appetite, sometimes i think to myself ''i have just eaten once in the last 24h, i'm not hungry but i need to eat something or i won't get any Kratom-effects'' which is a disgusting thought. If you haven't eaten properly after a binge, then you won't enjoy the next binge.
    -lots of Kratom and bad diet make me apathetic and weak, and lazy -- physically and mentally.
    -knowing that Kratom masks your fears and faults, and blurs your perception on how your life really feels/is. But you know that you failed to quit Kratom several times, you feel stuck in status quo and can't get away from Kratom and it's consequences.

    I'd like to underline that i don't want to condemn Kratom of course. It's just a warning that there is a way to abuse this drug in a rather serious way. So be warned, don't even consider to take it more than once a week and you will have the best results allround without any dangers. At least this is my experience.
    Bubjo, you should start to taper asap if you can, it only will get harder if you prolong. You still are in the beginning of the critical zone. I myself didn't react quick enough after i started to realize that there might be a problem with my habit and that Kratom can indeed have negative effects.

    Good luck and keep us updated!
     
  9. bubjo66

    bubjo66 Newbie

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    Thanks Cilonen. I agree that when I am without kratom for a period of time I am
    Even more socially anxious than I normally would have before kratom. I know it is a problem and I would say I have an early stage addiction. I thought I could keep this up for awhile and just take kratom whenever I'm in a social situation, which is quite often. Kratom is very benign and safe drugs compared to most, but I am definitely to finding out that it is not exempt to any negative consequences. I don't think I realized I had a problem with kratom until I started feeling like I couldn't enter a social situation without it and needed to rely on it for that. Also of course I knew I had a problem when I started experiencing physical withdrawals. I'm really gonna try for tomorrow to be my last day of using kratom (Im hanging out with a female that will probably make me anxious) and then start to taper off a week and hopefully be totally off it at the end of one week. I am then going to stay clean and off kratom for the 3-4 weeks following. Basically in one month I am starting community college and I want to A) be at the point where I am no longer dependent on kratom each day and experiencing withdrawals and B) my tolerance to be lower. I know the first week especially will be very challenging in terms of my social anxiety and I will really need kratom to help manage it. I hope though that I will get past the worst of anxiety and butterflies after the first week and can keep my kratom use to 1-2 times a week. I think I can manage 3 times a week though without experience withdrawal and dependence but what do you guys think? And I know I tell this to myself a lot but I also want to make a stronger effort to excercise at least 4 times a week and have a better diet and work on my social anxiety more head on with healthier and more therapuetic approach without relying on Kratom for EVERY single social situation I enter into like I am right now.
     
  10. Cilonen

    Cilonen Silver Member

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    You seem to be ambitious and smart enough to learn to use Kratom beneficially if you don't take it too easy. I like your attitude.

    In my opinion if you really want to be 100% autonomous then you can't afford to take something like Kratom every second day as you will quickly learn to rely on this drug to some degree, instead of learning to develop your skills and coping with stuff 'by yourself'. Furthermore you'd need a lot of self-discipline to not make exceptions on the off-day. Remember that you might get thoughts like ''damn, today is the no-Kratom day'' (I have experience with these destructive thoughts :/. In my experience everything that i take regularly and quite frequently loses its magic and becomes normal, a part of my routine. And after all it's much easier to control and enjoy a drug which you don't need for your normal functioning, but which is the extra in your life once in a while, for special occasions.
    think most will agree that you will have to expect to have at least mild withdrawals if you eventually stop to take it 3 times a week. But this might be no big issue for you.

    So i'd say you have to consciously decide what function should Kratom serve: e.g. Do you want to make Kratom help you with your social anxiety on every second day? Or do you want to take it once in a while just for fun of to relax once a week. Many here take it daily and say that it helps them to deal with certain urges and/or depression/fears. This is their choice.
    Perhaps the most important thing to consider is the question whether you have an addictive personality. If you were addicted to other stuff before and use the same patterns here, then its almost guaranteed that the '3 times a week' experiment will fail. I know, it wouldn't work for me and many others here who always end up taking it daily. That's why i wouldn't suggest this.
    However, it's about your personality and your choice what role Kratom should play in your life. This may work for you. When you experiment with Kratom, remember: Less is more. ;)
     
  11. iguasu

    iguasu Silver Member

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    I believe the "key" in kratom use ( and maybe on more substances) is the reason of using it.

    Is it a "need"? Is it for "fun"? Is it a medicine alternative? Or, as Cilonen said, its all about your personality?

    Its so bad when someone is addicted and depended on anything....physical (drug) or mental (emotional addiction).

    Freedom is the greatest thing a man can have. We must keep it with any cost. I felt this feeling of despare, after heavy drug abuse, and now I always say to my self "Stay free. Whatever it takes!" . I hope things go well with you and keep your living/working/etc. quality high enough to enjoy living. With or without substances. Ancient Greeks said: Παν μετρον αριστον (pan metron ariston), wich means we must always need to have balance on everything. Not too much, not too little. Many people receive joy and relief. Others not. You must find your "metron"=quantity
    Αnd a zero (0%) quantity is a metron, too. Its all up to you and what you need to function right. ;)
     
  12. blacksparrow

    blacksparrow Mercury Member

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    it starts for a lot of people like that-- going from once or twice a week to every day. Two weeks ago I took kratom every day except for one day of break (that's 6 days in the week). This week, I only took it last night and today, and that's it (I am limiting my use to twice a week now). I feel a lot better.. my mood is improved, I feel motivated. When I did it the 6 days in a week, everyday, I felt like crap... I think it was messing with me emotionally.
    Now, doing the kratom only twice a week I feel a lot better generally. I keep it at my boyfriend's house so that I do not have access to it during the week or when I am not with him. I believe that he has really shown me the dangers of it, where my previous partner was a heavy user and didn't care at all that I too was doing it a lot

    Kratom is sneaky. There are ways to do it moderately, but often times we fail. It's the nature of the drug and how it works in the brain.

    blacksparrow added 6 Minutes and 20 Seconds later...

    Cilonen, you make some very valid points. I have had those thoughts: 'damn, today is my off day.' Also, about using it to cope with negative emotions: that is exactly me. I have used krat as a way to 'relax' after having problems with my parents. I have used it when my thoughts are racing and I can't go to sleep or just as a mental 'reprieve'. I'm never directly high during when the stuff happens, but I feel the need to go to the krat to help get rid of some of the negative feelings, be it anger or sadness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  13. iguasu

    iguasu Silver Member

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    I also had the same thinking in opposite way: "Yeah! Its my krat night!" :)

    But...bubjo66, the OP, mensioned a "social anxiety" problem. Is that constant? Is there any chance to be something wich needs medical approach? If so, kratom will help, but not cure, I believe. Negative effects will show up, not because of kratom only. If theres some anxiety disorder, you may need some advice from a doctor maybe?

    Lots of users posted that kratom masks the symptoms, wich comes alltogether sometime. I experienced a similar thing myself, too. I hope its a mild thing for you, but if not, I suggest you take a professional advice.
     
  14. blacksparrow

    blacksparrow Mercury Member

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    Krat use almost always eventually gets out of control. It's like opening a Pandora's box. I refuse to take this drug more than 3 times a week even if my bones are aching for it. It is an unfortunate bi-product of starting with this drug.
     
  15. Roxywarrior

    Roxywarrior Silver Member

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    I've never been addicted to kratom per se, but I did use it for 45 days during an Oxycodone detox. It became a crutch to say the least. I could identify with everyone when they said they felt the stress if they forgot it. I was taking it in some fairly hefty doses, especially in early detox. I'm very fortunate though as I never withdrew from it. My last detox I used it for ten days, at the lowest doses possible. After day ten, I quit. Didn't suffer much at all. I've used kratom about 4 times since, in a period of over 60 days, today being the first in over 30 days.
     
  16. blacksparrow

    blacksparrow Mercury Member

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    Yeah, the withdrawal from it is never severe. I'm not even sure I got withdrawal. I know that I felt a lot more positive in general when I curbed my use to 3 times a week as opposed to doing it 5 or 6 times a week. Now I pick a weekday and typically 2 weekend days to do it.

    blacksparrow added 0 Minutes and 58 Seconds later...

    iguasu, I'm at that point now, where I think 'yeah, today is my krat night!' instead of thinking 'oh its my night off.'
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  17. ianzombie

    ianzombie Platinum Member & Advisor

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    Please, when making statements like this, be sure to make it very clear that you are only talking about your personal experience, because someone could read that and believe that there is no such thing as a severe withdrawal from kratom which there most certainly is.

    You might want to take a look at the rep comments on your profile page, you are getting a lot for the same things which would lead me to believe that you are not paying any attention to what people are telling you.
    You are also on minus points, if you get any more negative rep then you risk becoming a mercury member and losing the ability to post in many forums on this site.
    Be careful :)
     
  18. Jonathan James Jones

    Jonathan James Jones Newbie

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    The only 'unwanted' effect I've got from my (very) regular kratom use is a ton of weight loss, all in a short time. But oddly enough it isn't due to not eating - I still eat like a pig. No, there's something else about kratom that causes the pounds to melt away.

    Oh, at first I got worried about the drastic weight loss, I was ready to go to a doctor & get checked out. But then I realized how positive it's been. My blood pressure has fallen down into the normal range, for the first time since I've been middle-age, and, people keep remarking how "fit" I look all of a sudden. A couple of folks have approached me asking what my secret is. They think I'm doing special exercises or something but no, I'm just taking kratom.

    Other than this change, I still can't notice any negatives.

    It might be important to note that I only use 2 varieties of kratom: White Vein Borneo and Green Vein Thai. The others I don't really care for. And believe me I have tried them all. White Vein Borneo and Green Vein Thai both have a remarkable, bright-sunshiney antidepressant effect with no tiredness.
     
  19. iguasu

    iguasu Silver Member

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    I could say that this would be MY post, except from the veins you use. Everyone asks me if I"ve been to a nutritionist or something!
    My blood pressure dropped to normal too!
    This is because the change of diet I now have, its not a kratom miracle, but it helped a lot.
    So, JJJ, please tell me: why green and white veins? I use only reds. What is the difference? I must confess that I "enjoy" the sedative effects of red veins. Thats why I never switched to greens or whites.
     
  20. BongoBetty

    BongoBetty Newbie

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    Thank you for your post bubjo66.
    Hi everyone. I have been a real fan of this site for a while now but this is only my 2nd post.
    I am in the midst of a long taper because i was no longer getting anything from the Kratom i was using.
    It just became silly and i really want to get back to enjoying Kratom again sensibly.
    My background is Opiate based and i did CT off both Percocet and Heroin in the 90's. Not fun!
    When i discovered Kratom i was blown away. It seemed to have so many benefits and didn't mess with my soul. Heroin was actually soul destroying and the person i was vanished and was replaced by a creep.
    With Kratom, this has never happened and I really do love the stuff.
    Unfortunately my Kratom use went up to 30 grams a day and it became obvious that it is just silly to continue when there was no longer a benefit and i am just addicted to the stuff.
    I do not minimize Kratom withdrawals. They are very real and can be severe.
    For me though, they were much less severe than kicking other opiates.
    Don't misunderstand because the withdrawals can truly be awful!
    For me, because i am tapering (following ianzombie's advice/the best advice i've ever heard about regarding Kratom tapering) my withdrawals are basically RLS, which amounts to a pretty sore back ache and butt ache as well, extreme tiredness and overall gloominess.
    I am incredibly grateful to ianzombie for his advice! Thank you so much ian, your advice is not only the best i've heard about, but seems achievable! I am incredibly grateful.
    I cut from 30 grams a day to 8 grams a day and intend on getting to zero, and not doing any Kratom for a few weeks. I will say that I have messed up though in that i got down to 3 grams a day and after doing a 3 week taper, messed up and did 10 grams just because i was so sick of feeling tired.
    I hate that I did this and am pretty pissed off with myself but am trying to cut myself a break and pick up almost where i left off. On 8 grams a day again and fingers crossed will make it all the way.
    I find that it's the exhaustion that gets me the most, and very little sleep.
    I guess that because it had been 3 weeks, my addict mind ended up talking myself into relief.
    It was a mistake.
    Good luck bubjo66 and thank you so very much ianzombie (truly grateful for your advice)...
    Thanks for listening everybody. I hope it wasn't to long...