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Spiritual - Naturally Produce DMT

Discussion in 'DMT and Ayahuasca' started by Ganjaman23, Jun 5, 2010.

  1. Ganjaman23

    Ganjaman23

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    Swim read about this and researched it, its basically naturally releasing DMT, by meditating, so you dont have to smoke it,snort it,Inject it, you can do it anywhere because its in your brain.. if you could learn to do this, then you could go on a trip whenever you want, for no money.. the goverment cant make that illegal, you see thats the Key, Not Acid,Cannabis,Shrooms, there all chemicals you put in your body, but if you could produce it naturally then wherever you are in the world, prison, desert, anywhere you could take a trip to another world, and thats the key self reliance... DMT is the key to new realms and Time travel. DMT is currently a Class A drug in the UK, same as Heroin and cocaine.... People are focusing on the wrong drug we haven't got cannabis in our bodies, we havent got cocaine in our bodies, we have got DMT and we are not even using it (only when we sleep), the whole human race needs to learn how to naturally produce DMT because it is possible, then what can the goverment do about it.. instead of developing Technology we should be developing our consciousness... Im not sure what happend after the 60's, we fell back into our old ways of consuimerism, and conformity.... Swim thinks the world is ready for another Drug Revolution but this time take it One step further than the hippies and Use the DMT, that has been provided for us, its there for a reason we know its our dreams, but could it become our reality.. and the great thing is that ITS FREEE, anyone in the world can do it rich,poor,black,white,tall,short..expand your consciousness instead of your house, our consciousness is imprisoned in a physical body, and the only way to set it Free DMT!
     
  2. Miss Match

    Miss Match Titanium Member

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    SWIY should definatly do this. Please write about the experience and post a "How to" guide for the rest of us all to enjoy.
     
  3. kalishakti

    kalishakti Titanium Member

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    Dark Room Enlightenment - Mantak Chia (see attached)

    This is probably what you are looking for... it is hard, in modern life (dealing with work, etc) to have enough time to dedicate to keep yourself in pitch black darkness for > a week. SWIM has never tried this, tho it would seem consistent with hallucinatory states invoked by dark isolation, as typically experienced by prisoners who are thrown into "the hole" in prisons.

    days of uninterrupted darkness needed before the brain begins to produce...
    -------------------------------
    3-5 days Pinoline
    6-8 days 5-Meo-DMT
    9-12 days DMT

    Peace and Divinity,
    M.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Coconut

    Coconut

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    I'm just wondering, how do they know the brain produces 5-MeO-DMT and N,N-DMT as a result of prolonged immersion in darkness? Additionally, I was under the impression that the pineal gland was only hypothesised by Dr. Rick Strassman to synthesise DMT because the necessary precursors are located there, but that there is no conclusive evidence.

    It all sounds very impressive and plausible, yet simultaneously unconvincing as it's mere speculation presented as fact.
     
  5. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    EDIT: Reading the following posts one will realize that my initial stance concerning DMT being produced in the body was incorrect. Sources are cited below in this thread that show substantial evidence of DMT being produced in the body and in the brain.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is no evidence that the brain produces DMT at any time (before death, while sleeping/dreaming, in meditation, etc.). Strassman speculated that the brain might produce DMT. This speculation was purely that, he had no evidence to support this idea. The idea was later repeated several times and a myth was born.

    The following is taken from a recent article in Erowid Monthly which discusses this topic in depth (bold is mine):

     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  6. Desertfox

    Desertfox Palladium Member

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    You keep reposting this thing from erowid Jasim but i don't think that essay was accurate either... I'll repost this for the sake of relevancy

    Strassman proposed lots of evidence to suggest it does get produced there. It is a fact that DMT is produced in the body, they just CAN'T know exactly where because it is metabolized so fast once it's made that it's as if it's never there. Their best educated hypothesis says it is in the pineal gland but this will be impossible to prove this unless an imaging spectra can specifically see the DMT molecule being made, in real time, in someone's brain. We know it is being excreted from some source in the body, in too small amounts to detect where from but all signs point to it's production in the Pineal gland because that is where most of the other neurotransmitter of similar structure are also produced.

    I think it's a safe bet to say Yes it is made in the pineal gland. Saying it's not made in their because it hasn't been proven fact doesn't make sense. Well we haven't made a spaceship to go to the sun to see if it is actually a big burning ball of hydrogen, but it is a safe bet to make that it is based on observations.
     
  7. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    What evidence are you referring to? I've never seen any evidence from Strassman or any other. And no, we don't know it's produced in the body. There's no evidence of that.

    FACTS:
    1. DMT has never been found as endogenous in any animal tissue.
    2. No gene has been identified that could provide a metabolic pathway for the synthesis of DMT.
    3. Studies have been conducted to investigate this issue and none have found evidence for it. For an example see:
    4. The pineal gland has been regarded throughout history as a 'metaphysical' gland. Of course, I guess that's why this thread is labeled "Spiritual". I believe this association is where this idea came from, but it has no scientific basis.

    BTW, have you ever looked at those "neurotransmitters"? From what I understand the pineal gland makes melatonin, which is a tryptamine, but if you know anything about biochemistry it's not similar enough to DMT to assume it's produced in the pineal gland. In fact melatonin and DMT are quite disctinct. Melatonin and serotonin are produced from tryptophan. To get DMT from any of them requires cleaving an aliphatic chain while dimethylating an adjacent nitrogen. Don't get me wrong, biochemistry can do some amazing syntheses, but to assume DMT is made just because of some structural similarities is a fallacy. The chemicals aren't THAT similar.


    Personally, I prefer the scientific method to ancient texts and mystical insights, but to each their own. DMT being produced in the pineal gland is nothing more than a persistent myth as far as I'm concerned.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
  8. StrangeTrip

    StrangeTrip Silver Member

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    SWIM bets serotonin is the chemical that affects our dreams, not DMT. Isn't serotonin a full agonist? SWIM could be wrong.

    SWIM certainly wants to believe DMT is being produced by our pineal gland, that would be so awesome if our own body produced such a powerful psychedelic drug.
     
  9. RaverHippie

    RaverHippie Gold Member

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    Sounds like wishful thinking as a result of prolonged exposure to random drug articles and insomnia.

    I'm more likely to believe the quoted texts from Jasim than a person (strassmen) that literally states "I have no knowledge therefore I'm free to speculate further than the knowledgeable".
     
  10. Desertfox

    Desertfox Palladium Member

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    And did you, JASIM, do any research beyond reading that erowid article and making your conclusion? what about all these science articles? Aren't they proof enough?

    Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland. by Guchhait RB.
    J Neurochem, 1976;26:187-90.


    Tryptamine-N-methyltransferase activity in brain tissue: a re-examination. by Boarder MR, Rodnight R.
    Brain Res, 1976;114:359-64.


    Enzymatic N-methylation of indoleamines by mammalian brain: Fact or artefact? by Gomes UR, Neethling AC, Shanley BC.
    J Neurochem, 1976;27:701-5.


    Improved selective ion monitoring mass-spectrometric assay for determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human blood utilizing capillary column gas chromatography. by Walker RW, Mandel LR, Kleinman JE, Gillin JC, Wyatt RJ, Vandenheuvel WJA.
    J Chromatogr, Biomed Appl, 1979;162:539-46.


    Tryptamine, N,N-dimethyltryptamine,N,N-dimethyl-5-hydroxytryptamine and 5-methoxytryptamine in human blood and urine. by Franzen F, Gross H.
    Nature 1965;206:1052.


    Psychotomimetic N-methylated tryptamines: Formation in brain in vivo and in vitro. by Saavedra JM, Axelrod J.
    Science 1972;175:1365-6.


    Increased excretion of dimethyltryptamine and certain features of psychosis. A possible association. by Murray RM, Oon MCH, Rodnight R, Birley JLT, Smith A.
    Arch Gen Psychiatry, 1979;36:644-9.


    A dimethyltryptamine-forming enzyme in human blood. by Wyatt RJ, Saavedra JM, Axelrod J.
    Am J Psychiatry 1973;130:754-60.


    N,N-Dimethyltryptamine: An endogenous hallucinogen. by Barker SA, Monti JA, Christian ST.
    Int Rev Neurobiol 1981;22:83-110.


    Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine concentrations in normals and psychiatric patients. by Wyatt RJ, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Walker RW, Vandenheuvel WJA.
    Psychopharmacology, 1973;31:265-70.


    Blood dimethyltryptamine concentrations in psychotic disorders. by Lipinski JF, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Vandenheuvel WJA, Walker RW.
    Biol Psychiatry, 1974;9:89-91.


    The enzymatic N-methylation of serotonin and other amines. by Axelrod J.
    J Pharmacol Exp Ther, 1962;138:28-33.


    The distribution and properties of the non-specific N-methyltransferase in brain. by Saavedra JM, Coyle JT, Axelrod J.
    J Neurochem 1973;20:743-52.


    Urinary excretion of dimethyltryptamine in liver disease. by Checkley SA, Oon MCH, Rodnight R, Murphy MP, Williams RS, Birley JLT.
    Am J Psychiatry, 1979;136:439-41.


    Hallucinogenic N-methylated indolealkylamines in the cerebrospinal fluid of psychiatric and control populations. by Corbett L, Christian ST, Morin RD, Benington F, Smythies JR.
    Br J Psychiatry 1978;132:139-44.


    In: Wood J, ed. Neurobiology of Cerebrospinal Fluid. v. 2. by Brown G, Smythies J, Morin R.
    New York: Plenum, 1983:173-7.


    Identification of dimethyltryptamine and O-methylbufotenin in human cerebrospinal fluid by combined gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. by Smythies JR, Morin RD, Brown G.
    Biol Psychiatry 1979;14:549-56

    biosignificance of n- and o-methylated indoles to psychiatric disorders. by Koslow.
    National Institute of Mental Health, 1974;23:210-9.


    Factors affecting the urinary excretion of endogenously formed dimethyltryptamine in normal human subjects. by Oon MCH, Murray RM, Rodnight R, Murphy MP, Birley JLT.
    Psychopharmacology, 1977;54:171-5.


    A proposed mechanism for the visions of dream sleep. by Callaway J.
    Medical Hypotheses, 1988;26:119-24.

    Here's more for you... In plants, the tryptophan is produced endogenously where in animals the tryptophan used comes from diet. No matter the source of tryptophan, the biosynthesis begins with the decarboxylation of L-tryptophan (step 1). Once decarboxylated, tryptamine (step 2) is dimethylated by S-adenosyl-methionine (SAM) via nucleophilic attack. This reaction is mediated by tryptamine-N-methyltransferase enzyme. This produces the product (step 3). The mechanism has been proven by radio labelling of SAM with carbon-14.The study found that various mammal tissues contained enzymes capable of performing the above transformation. Tryptamine N-methyltransferase (alternative names: indolethylamine N-methyltransferase (INMT), amine N-methyltransferase, arylamine N-methyltransferase, nicotine N-methyltransferase) is an enzyme which is ubiquitously present in non-neural tissues and which catalyzes the N-methylation of tryptamine and structurally related compounds. In the case of tryptamine and serotonin these then become the dimethylated indolethylamines dimethyltryptamine (DMT) and bufotenine.
    The chemical reaction taking place is:


    S-adenosyl-L-methionine + an amine <==> S-adenosyl L-homocysteine + a methylated amine
     
  11. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    I have now exhausted quite some time on this endeavor. Here is what I've found.

    1. Trace levels of endogenous DMT have been found in blood (possibly in urine and cerebrospinal fluid). No source documents exist in the file archives. Such an addition would be very appreciated. I'll leave it to someone else.

    2. DMT has not been found in the pineal. There is no suggestion that DMT is produced in the pineal. Still looking for verifiable references stating otherwise.

    3. Since I have found no evidence of a connection of DMT to the pineal, I have found no evidence connecting endogenous DMT levels to light/dark, sleep, meditation, etc.

    4. I now submit for your consideration: Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine

     
  12. Desertfox

    Desertfox Palladium Member

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    There's no dispute that traces are found that were produced naturally in the body, so with that fact where do you propose the DMT is made in the body? The pineal gland is the most likely culprit and pretty much only possible place where it would be made, it contains the ability to create all the reactants, enzymes and conditions to synthesize DMT endogenously. We know it's being made somewhere in the body, so where is it? SWIM bets the pineal gland is a safe bet
     
  13. Jasim

    Jasim Gold Member

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    Can you provide some sources for this statement?

    If DMT is found in the blood and urine, it's likely being produced in several places in the body. I've yet to see evidence suggesting that the pineal is a place for endogenous DMT production or suggesting that DMT is not produced elsewhere in the body.

    Earlier you mentioned S-adenosyl methionine. Sam-e is found throughout the body, as is serotonin and tryptophan. Why can't the endogenous DMT be coming from somewhere else? What makes the pineal gland so special?

    If the endogenous DMT plays any role in physiology (and I believe it would based on my knowledge of neurochemistry), it likely acts on trace amine receptors. There are 7, maybe 9, different trace amine receptors found throughout the body. Which of those may be receptive to DMT, I don't know. Does DMT act on sites distance from it's production (ie is DMT acting like a hormone or a neurotransmitter)?

    The study I cited is a speculative hypothesis on the function of endogenous DMT. It may not even have a function (unlikely, but it's possible). It is only found in very trace amounts. It could just be an accidental metabolic byproduct.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
  14. Desertfox

    Desertfox Palladium Member

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    SWIM thinks that it is more likely a byproduct than specifically produced for a certain function, but it also is likely responsible for spiritual experiences when it gets overproduced and may exist solely as a conduit for that experience to occur in the physical world.

    DMT may be getting produce in very small amounts somewhere else in the body but any amount to have any dramatic biological or psychoactive effect would have to be the pineal gland where enough precursors are available at one time to create a "dose". SWIM doesn't know of any trace receptor interaction but does know DMT has some off-target action as a sigma-1 opiod receptor agonist, which is interesting
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
  15. JoeK

    JoeK

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    Can the SWIMERS actually stop debating science and somebody could post some "How-tos" for meditiation?

    My Alpaca would like to have any sort of anything using meditation, preferrably DMT though.
     
  16. Miss Match

    Miss Match Titanium Member

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    ...... But the science is whats relevant to whether this is achievable.

    One will experience "any sort of anything" if one meditates. But whether or not that could possibly be DMT experience, Only science will tell ya.
    As you were folks... :yes-no:
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  17. Coconut

    Coconut

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    The topic of the thread is not "how-tos" for meditation, but the issue of DMT being synthesised by the brain.
     
  18. Palmer

    Palmer Newbie

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    I am into page 80 or so of strassman's book and from all the studies he looked into, his conclusion was that though there is no scientific evidence of the pineal producing dmt, it has everything it needs to produce dmt, along with a dmt defence mechinism. The body also excretes small ammounts of dmt though urine. If anyone wants me to specificly quote this I can.
     
  19. RaoulDuke32

    RaoulDuke32 Silver Member

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    ok, to go back to the OP.
    WOW. why didnt swim think of that. let me just flick my DMT switch on. there swim is, trippin balls. but seriously, let us know if you find some specific yogic holds or meditative techniques to release DMT...or the brains natural cannabinoids, endorphins, at levels high enough to get us high.

    as to the natural DMT, its found in the body as well as hundreds of different plants...and the pineal gland creates hormones with the indole ring, like indole psychedelics. swim thinks the pineal gland is the third eye, sure DMT might be made elsewhere, but you scientists should think of occoms razor before you speculate to death.
     
  20. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT Staff Member

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    I think this claim sort of begs the question of whether there's any valid link between meditation and DMT endogenesis as proposed. Aside from the other biologically debatable claims made, what exactly are we talking about here? Are you claiming that one's consciousness can literally traverse space and time via ingestion of DMT, as well as our consciousness is something independent of our body? If so, I think you've some explaining to do.

    Regarding the bio-claims; I'm with Miss Sweet, and sorta with StrangeTrip (regarding 5-HT's relevance):
    It may be important to maintain that our sensory systems are easily fooled, given appropriate inputs. Whether or not DMT is involved is largely irrelevant regarding this kind of approach to induced hallucinations, as there is a plethora of neurophysiologically-based explanations for sensory distortions experienced in this kind of 'liminal', or perhaps even hypnagogic, state of consciousness that don't involve DMT. Phosphene activity, for example, comes to mind - and certainly doesn't require the release of DMT to occur. Additionally, the psychedelia characterizing a given DMT-experience is largely attributable to serotonergic activity (as, I think, StrangeTrip was hinting at) - and not DMT as a neurotransmitter at the sigma receptor, for example. For that reason alone, it's quite a leap to attribute any spontaneous hallucination to DMT activity. However, coupled with the fact that deep meditation can be characterized as a transitional state of consciousness - I see absolutely no reason to attribute hallucinations experienced in such a state to a specific psychedelic, regardless of the similarity in subjective characteristics.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
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