Opiate use vs Kratom? Ideas? Suggestions? Advice please.

Discussion in 'Opiate & Opioid addiction' started by Hydrohell, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. Hydrohell

    Hydrohell Silver Member

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    Hello good people....

    I am very new to Kratom. I was hoping someone could help me with the use of it and their experiences.
    I just filled my script for Hydrocodone and I am going to try my absolute very best, not to take them for other than emergencies. (I have a chronic back issue with 2 discs)

    As many of you already know, it's very draining and exhausting to constantly be in pain. And that's where the Hydrocodone works miracles. However it comes at a price and a price I'm not quite willing to pay anymore.

    My dogs friend recently bought some Kratom online and was wondering how to use it to get the most out of it. Someone told him it would help with pain and even withdrawals. Now obviously my dogs friends goal is to never have to experience any withdrawals but if he did, he would want them as painless as possible of course. And I really want to help him.

    Any of you have any ideas about Kratom? Whats the best way to get the most out of it as far as Energy, Pain management, comfort, ETC?

    I really hope you all can help my dogs friend....

    Thank you guys/girls
    HH
     
  2. Mr Gregoire

    Mr Gregoire Newbie

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    start with 3 grams made into capsules is my suggestion, the higher the dose of kratom the more sedating it feels, and usually the lower doses are more energizing, so if you looking for pain relief without feeling sluggish, a low dose is key. just my 2 cents. also you could simply wash down powder that you scoop into your mouth (3 grams still of course which is like one teas spoon.) it tastes bad though so its not for everyone.
     
  3. Zhekarius

    Zhekarius Silver Member

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    My pal has never tried kratom, but he has had extended prescription opiate use over the years, kratom seems far less invasive to a person, the lack of similar withdrawal and physical addiction for starters, seem like a relief to him (again he's never actually tried it though), though he's heard it can be subtle in it's psychological grip on a person taking it long enough. While it's not as strong, kratom seems like the better choice.
     
  4. Kid Cudi

    Kid Cudi Titanium Member

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    From my friend's iguana's experiences, the effects from kratom are very dependent on its quality and the vendor that is selling it. Sometimes it can be difficult to get good quality kratom, especially in the beginning when one is trying out different strains and dosages. For example, my friend's iguana purchased some bali kratom and it takes over 10 g for him to feel minimal effects. If one is able to find a reliable vendor and high grade kratom, then my friend's iguana would recommend it over opiates.

    WARNING: Kratom can still cause physical and psychological addiction/dependance and withdrawals. The daily use of kratom isn't suggested.
     
  5. southern girl

    southern girl Palladium Member

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    Hi HydroHell. Welcome to the forum : )

    I too am a chronic pain patient and have addiction issues as well. Its a bitch aint it? As if one thing isnt hard enough, do we really need both? Isnt one shit thing enough on its own? Oh well...we cant change it so we might as well try to adapt to it right?

    Im prescribed oxycodone for my chronic pain- OxyContin 60mgs twice a day and OxyNorm (instant release oxycodone) for any break through pain as needed. Ive tried Kratom injunction with my OxyContin, specifically in place of the OxyNorm for breakthrough pain and, I have to be honest here, it didnt touch the sides. It absolutely did not compare with oxycodone for pain relief at all. Like the poster above said, Im sure it had something to do with quality of the Kratom. I used an extract and from my understanding they are not recommended.

    I also tried Kratom on its own for pain relief, and as you can imagine, I was right back on my oxycodone in no time. The Kratom didnt even keep me from withdrawing. I also imagine that tolerance has something to do with it. Because Kratom reacts on receptors, you are a going to have a cross tolerance where other opiate and opioids are concerned. Because you already have a tolerance to opiates, albeit a small one, you may need more than the standard dose to achieve the same effect as someone with no opiate tolerance.

    As far as addiction goes, I suppose Kratom would be the lesser of the two evils. But Kratom can also be physically addictive and cause withdrawal symptoms. Depending on the type of Kratom, dosage amounts, as well as frequency all come into play as to how bad the withdrawals can be. From what Ive read, a serious Kratom habit can be quite horrific to come off of. Because of the different alkaloids that maybe present, as well as other properties that are specific to the plant, the withdrawal symptoms may vary; there could also be specific symptoms that arent even present in withdrawal from pharmaceutical opiates. Im not saying this is fact, its just possible. Ive never withdrawn from Kratom so Im not sure how comparable it is to true opiate WD, but I have read the experience reports the forum and I cant say that its something I want to experience anytime soon....or ever. Yeah....you know what..I can definitely go without experiencing that in my life.

    Another thing that can make Kratom withdrawal especially difficult is that a lot of the medical community arent familiar with it so they have no idea about Kratom addiction addiction, much less Kratom withdrawal. With that being said, they have no idea how to treat Kratom withdrawal symptoms and its likely that you will run into major problems when trying to get help for a Kratom addiction.

    Now I know you didnt specifically ask about this in this thread, but did in another one so I just want to give you advice while Im here. You asked if it was possible to control your hydrocodone intake and use it strictly when needed for legitimate pain, after having addiction struggles with it and if there was anyone who has done this. I have and I am. I have used all of my oxycodone before it was refill time because I was abusing and now I use them as prescribed and have done for a while. I have had slip-ups, Im not gonna lie and its been *extremely* difficult at times. And I mean extremely. Especially at first. It takes a lot of serious self control. Its not easy at all, but it does become easier with time. It becomes habit and routine. But you know what, the addiction doesnt go away. You're just basically maintaining an addiction. Which is what I feel like Im doing. My Dr is adamant Im not, but I disagree because I know what that bitch of an addict in my head whispers to me when Im the most vulnerable.

    You know, I always liken it to being on a diet. You deprive, deprive, deprive, and deprive, but eventually you break down and eat that damn cupcake. Thats the way it feels to me anyway.

    So do you mind if I ask, hows it going since you got your script filled? How many doses have you taken? Have you noticed if you're constantly thinking about when you can take your next or when it would be appropriate to? Or perhaps have you rationalized taking a dose when you know you really havent needed it for pain? Can I also ask about your Dr? Do you have a good relationship with her/him? Is this something you think you would be able to talk to him/her about? Like discussing other options to help you control your pain such as different meds (narcotic & non-narcotic), creams/rubs, steroid injections, physical therapy..etc.

    These reason I ask is because these are things I've experienced before as well. And when you have that full bottle of pills, its pretty easy to just "fuck it" and deal with the consequences later. Sorry Im not trying to be nosy or pry, Im just trying to get the most info so I can give you the best advice possible.

    I hope this has helped some and thank you in advance for any answers and info.

    SG.xxx

    By the way, sorry for the super long post. Didnt mean to write a book, I just tend to ramble on sometimes.
     
  6. Hydrohell

    Hydrohell Silver Member

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    Southern girl,
    I'm glad you've taken an interest in my questions. And I have no problem answering your questions.

    Today I had a procedure done by my back specialist. He basically burned off the nerv endings in my low back so that I will feel less or no pain. Obviously the effects after this procedure is to hurt like a toothless whore because they've been in there diggin around with needles.

    So of course I took a bunch of hydros today to ease that horrible pain. And its no surprise that I have a very high tolerans to opiates now so its not like 1, 2 or 3 will do it.

    I do intend on not taking them on a regular basis. I really want to be free from them but I know it's hard when you know in the back of your head that it'll all go away with some easy pills.....

    My dr is actually an awesome guy. He has done injections on me and he's really listened to my concerns. I have told him openly that I have a problem with the opiates. He has told me we can stop any time I want to but he wonders the same thing I do.......how will I manage my pain without them?

    A very valid question....and I still don't know.

    Anway, I think I would do alot better if I didn't just loose my job of 4 years and having to apply for unemployment for the first time in my life. This causes some severe stress with me. I have a mortgage, 2 dogs and a fiance to take care of.

    My fiance is really causing me some bad greif over taking these fucking pills.......I guess she has the right to though. She's seen me in some pretty awful withdrawals....

    If I could manage by taking a few pills a week, I would be extatic! But with a chronic issue and an addiction on top of it, its not very easy.

    I'm not much of a believer of God or anything so believing in myself is pretty much all I have.....
    Please wish me luck in having success with this latest procedure......and also managing to limit or kick my addiction.....

    It feels good reading about this.......and of course even more so writing about it to people who know what its like....

    //HH
     
  7. southern girl

    southern girl Palladium Member

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    Hello again HH. Im really glad to hear that your Dr knows about your problems with addiction. My Dr is also aware of mine and it makes it a lot easier to talk openly and to be honest with her as to where Im at psychological, as well as physically. As you know, pain and addiction on their own are psychologically damaging enough, together they're down right destructive. Have you thought about speaking to your Dr about going on a long acting opiate/opioid like OxyContin or MS-Contin? From a pain and addiction standpoint they are actually better, as long as you dont abuse them of course.

    I see you are in the US, so OxyContin has been replaced with OxyContin OP- an "abuse proof" formula so maybe that will be in your favor as far as abusing them goes? Im prescribed 60mgs of OxyContin twice a day (its not the OP formula, its just the original OC) and I take them as prescribed (I do not abuse them) and honestly, its the best pain killer Ive ever had. It does take about an hour to kick in and the pain relief last for about 8-10 hrs. Its suppose to last 12hrs, but for me, it only lasts 10 at the most. Everyone is different, with different metabolisms so I suppose it would vary. So for pain, in my opinion, its the best that Ive tried.

    Also, as long as you dont crush, chew, snort, or inject them (which I dont, and you wouldnt be able to because the US now have the OP) you dont get any euphoria or high. Well you might in the beginning, but Ive been on it for 2yrs now and I get very little to none. Maybe when I first take my morning dose on an empty stomach I might feel a slightly warm with a tinge of euphoria, but nothing major. And when you have addiction problems, that is a good thing. That is one thing that has enabled me to not abuse my tablets, because I dont get high.

    A few months back, I had quite a bad flare up and had to take 20mgs of instant release oxycodone, my breakthrough tablets. I took them on an empty stomach because sometimes when my pain gets quite bad I can feel nauseated, so I hadnt eaten. Well I got high for the first time in a long time and it completely messed up my head. I even started having cravings again. Im not going to lie, I started "abusing" my IR oxy. I wasnt taking outlandish doses, but thats not the point. What constitutes as abusing in my book is why you take the pills. I wasnt taking them for pain. I was taking them to get high. Ive got that under control once again, even though it has been tough, I got there in the end. I do still get cravings now, but they're not as strong as it was.

    The thing you have to be really aware of while having both pain & addiction issues is that you dont want to abuse the shit out of your meds, skyrocket your tolerance, and have nothing that works for the pain when you really need it. That is something that Im extremely afraid of and extremely aware of. That fear is a good thing because it does help me keep control over things. That is just something else you need to be aware of.

    I suppose I can kinda see where your fiance is coming from because addiction is a very hard burden to be saddled with, not just for the user, but for the users family, friends, and loved ones. I can imagine its even tougher for the partner of an addict. But she also needs to realize that you have pain issues and you are going to need that medication to function. I know that its impossible to describe to someone who has never experienced chronic pain what it is like to live with that every minute, of every hour, of everyday and how that effects every part of your being- mind, body, and soul. Before I had my pain issues, I could never imagine what it was like to live a life of pain.

    Addiction is the same, you could never explain to anyone who has never experienced an addiction what its like. The desperation, the intense all encompassing cravings, the anxiety and fear of withdrawal, the excrutiating pain of withdrawal to is so severe you start to think that you're actually dying, then unbelievable it becomes even more intense tat you start to actually start to wish you were dying- hell, you even start begging to die. Those are only a few of the horrific things that comes with addiction.


    Like I said, it beyond difficult for someone with no knowledge of what its like, for both. Maybe writing in a journal (like a pain + addiction journal) about what you're going through and how you're feeling that way she can read it and see what you're going through on a day to day basis; how you are on your good days and how you are on your bad days. And maybe she could write one for you, so you can see what she's going through and how she's coping. Also, it might be an idea to have hear read some first hand accounts/experiences from people with both pain and addiction. It might help her understand what you're going through. It might also help her to know that its not uncommon for pain patients to get addicted to their meds. Anyone that as been taking opiates for a certain amount of time will experience withdrawal symptoms, regardless if they have a psycological addiction or not.

    Well, I think Ive written another book here instead of a post. LOL. Sorry, I do have to go now, but if you ever want to chat just send me a PM sometime. Its nice to have someone who understands what you're going through.

    Much Love

    SG.xxx
     
  8. Aberdonian

    Aberdonian Newbie

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    hey sg, ur not weak u r 1 hella strong girl being able to control your pain resposibly by usin drugs as prescribed,ie what they are for they wouldnt be available and your oc wouldnt give em 2 u if they were just for fun lol dont put yourself down im same i use fent and oxynorm too cos i HAVE too, i cant handle the pain n dont see why anyone sould suffer if there is no need,hell would he not take antibiotics if he had an infection? medication is exactly that MEDICATION ,lol u r an amazing person dont put yourself down!

    Aberdonian added 3 Minutes and 7 Seconds later...

    an bear im so glad for you you like your pain,wish it was that easy, cant be very severe if willpower fixes it lol
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  9. Hydrohell

    Hydrohell Silver Member

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    Well......so far it's not going so well......I have taken 7 today and I took 7 yesterday. Due to my high tolerans, a couple of them just don't cut it anymore....
    But I have full intentions on staying away tomorrow......I need to be strong I KNOW!

    My back is actually doing a bit better than yesterday, allthough since I'm all doped up it could be that I don't feel as much of the pain of course......but it actually feels a bit better. I just wish I would have the same amount of energy when I'm off the pills as when I'm on them. My fiance notices a huge difference in my mood and energy level when I'm on the pills....

    Wish me luck....

    Love,
    HH
     
  10. esoteric_explorer

    esoteric_explorer Silver Member

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    this Kratom experience report titled: An Amazing Analgesic Experience With Kratom was not written by me, but it seems relevant here:

    Wouldn't allow me to post link, just search "kratom for analgesic use" and you should find it, should you want to


    Reproduced Report:

    Dose: 3 grams Kratom, ground/crushed and taken orally

    First, I'd like to state that I am not a casual drug user (I don't even smoke weed). I do smoke tobacco, however.

    I was recently diagnosed with a form of tendonitis that gave me considerable pain in my right wrist at the thumb and my options were surgery to correct the problem (followed by physical therapy for several months coupled with opiates for pain for a time until the surgery healed) OR baby the wrist and allow the body to heal itself which takes approximately 12 months when it is as advanced as mine was. The disease I had is called 'de Quervain's tenosynovitis' and is extremly painful.

    I was prescribed Ultram ER (100 mg) and when that did nothing for the pain I was prescribed Ultram 50 mg. This also hardly dented the pain I experienced. Two aspirin tablets a few times a day DID help the pain somewhat but only enough to make it bearable so I stopped taking Ultram. (Ultram makes me feel stupid, apathetic, grumpy and forgetful without providing any analgesic effects other than not caring so much about the pain that is still being experienced-- but not caring in a way more like 'Ah hell, I hurt and this sucks but so does everything really I guess I'll just accept it' rather than 'I hurt, but man I feel GOOD so I don't care about the pain' which some other opiates provide. I think if physicians tried taking this medicine themselves for pain, they'd never prescribe it again).

    Due to injuries and dental procedures in the past and as a child, I have had to take opiates to manage acute pain and once for chronic pain for a couple of months caused by a reinjury to an ankle. (Oxycontin for a tooth cracked up to through the root once, Vicodin for several weeks from the ankle injury, and various others through the years mostly because of dental procedures).

    My ankle injury left me wary of opiates because of the subsequent withdrawal symptoms after I no longer needed the pain medicine and stopped taking it. So when I came down with de Quervain's tenosynovitis and was prescribed Ultram which didn't work for my pain yet gave me all the unpleasant effects of other opiates I had taken but with none of the pleasant side effects (such as euphoria) I decided to try to find an herbal pain reliever that I could couple with aspirin to manage the pain as my wrist healed over the course of a year. (I had also wanted to avoid anything with tylenol or acetamenophin in it which I consider to be poison and too risky to take -- I value my liver).

    I came upon a website in which people were discussing their use of Kratom leaves used as an analgesic for such things as fibromyalgia (Ultram is prescribed for this in many cases) and lupus (also ultram is sometimes prescribed for this rather than stronger scheduled narcotics when physicians feel harassed by the DEA for 'overprescribing' pain medicine -- I feel for sufferers of lupus and other painful diseases that they frequently can't get medicine to make them feel better because of curent political climates). Several members talked about how they used kratom to manage the pain with great success, success they described as being on par with oxycontin in many cases for pain reduction.

    I decided to try it. So I ordered an ounce of 'Private Reserve Kratom' (crushed leaves) from an online supplier along with 15x kratom extract, and whole kratom leaves. I wish I had learned about this stuff earlier, because... man, it worked for me. It worked AS GOOD AS opiates I had taken in the past for pain relief and did so without making me foggy or lethargic or apathetic.

    I take 3 grams of private reserve kratom (is about three slightly rounded teaspoons of the crushed leaves). The people that were taking kratom for pain didn't smoke or boil the leaves, but ingested them to get the analgesic effect so this is also how I take it. I place 3 grams in a coffee grinder and grind it up until it's powder fine, then I mix that with a small amount of brewed regular iced tea sometimes hot tea, green tea would probably work as well. the tea is to help mask the taste of the kratom which tastes HORRIBLE in just water, but in tea the two flavors blend well. Well, as well as can be with such a bitter and aromatic herb. I drink this mixture along with two aspirin tablets and in 20 minutes begin to feel relaxed and slightly euphoric, within 45 minutes to an hour all my pain disappears. Gone. As if I had taken oxycontin, yet without the flying high feeling.

    For pain relief it IS important to not boil the Kratom and to consume the herb itself rather than a tea or smoking it. It works without aspirin, but the aspirin augments it greatly, in a way that's like aspirin with codiene, hydrocodone or oxycontin, aspirin plus kratom gives much more analgesic effect than aspirin or kratom alone.
    5 Grams of the kratom leaves taken like this makes me high as a kite and feels very much like taking Vicodin, my wife says 5 grams feels JUST like oxycontin to her. I have only taken 5 grams once, as 3 grams works for my pain without making me 'stupid'.

    I have found the private reserve kratom when taken like I described, works better than the 15x powder, and also better than the resinous extract which is also available online. The whole leaf kratom provided almost no analgesic effect or euphoria when taken in the same dose, leading me to suspect it might not be true kratom at all, or if so a very inferior product (it smelled and tasted just like the private reserve kratom, but had little if any effects at a three gram dose).

    I am thrilled that I have found a legal herb (at least in my state -- it's illegal in Louisiana) that can alleviate pain for me as effectivly as opiates. I am careful to not take it recreationally, though it would be very easy to do so because the euphoria is very nice, since I'd rather be able to treat pain as needed without having to take large doses. Kratom is addictive according to the literature, but then so is ultram when taken for a long period and I have noticed much less withdrawal (none at the dose I take) than with ultram. (Take ultram for four days and stop cold turkey and I'll feel like I have the flu -- take 3 grams of kratom for four days twice a day and stop cold turkey and I'll not experience withdrawl -- though I will feel like I want kratom, and there is the danger -- danger of addiction psychologically before physical I imagine, the stuff just feels that good).

    I have also found that ultram and kratom negate each other. If I take kratom within 12 hours of taking ultram and the effects of the ultram will disappear and the effects of the kratom will be nonexistent.

    Kratom is a very positive experience for me, for pain relief all I need is 3 grams and two aspirin. I hope others who may be frustrated in thier community trying to deal with chronic pain without being able to get relief try kratom and find it as effective as I and others have.




    hope I could help
     
  11. Hydrohell

    Hydrohell Silver Member

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    I can't fucking believe this. I just replies to your post and wrote a long ass reply but it never posted.
    Great.

    Anyway let's try a shorter version.

    Thanks for a great post. Very informative and helpful. It seems many people except me have luck with kratom for pain management. I would appreciate some more advise on this matter.

    I recently made capsules of kratom powder. How many mg will I have to take for a successful pain management experience? The capsules are 450 mg each.

    Thanks again for a great post.
    Be well
    HH
     
  12. Kid Cudi

    Kid Cudi Titanium Member

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    The dose is completely variable upon several factors. One factor is the quality of the kratom; obviously, if the kratom is of higher quality than you will require less of it than if it was of lower quality. Another factor is whether you are using an extract or just the leaf; extracts usually require a lower dose than plain leaf (extracts aren't recommended). A third factor is the strain of the kratom; some strains are stronger than others and create different effects.


    So, my questions to you are:

    Are you using a kratom extract or kratom leaf? I'm aware that it is a powder, but what was the powder made from?

    Which strain of kratom are you using?

    Where did you buy your kratom from? (ex. head shop, vendor, herbal store, etc.)
    I'm not asking for which exact store/vendor you purchased it from, but I was curious to see if you bought it locally or if it was shipped to you. Reliable vendors tend to have higher quality kratom than what's available at most head shops.


    Answering these questions will help to determine and estimate what a good starting dose would be.
     
  13. neonblur

    neonblur Silver Member

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    i dont have a ton to add, just that i tried it and i feel it was a waste of money. plus when your sick its pretty damn hard to take 8 pills at once and keep them down...i didnt fidn them to be helpful. i think that your better off on loprimide. 6 tiny loprimides gets the chills away for me.