I have a question he's seen posed on other forums... There are some who have been suggesting that depression can result from not only a "deficiency/over reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Depression can also result from a deficiency /over reuptake of your endogenous opioids" Endrogenous opiods are endorphins, dynorphins, and enkephalins (our bodies naturally produced opiods). In the past opiates have been used as anti-depressants, until they were replaced by more fine tuned substances. However there are people who claim that no traditional anti-depressant will help their depression (SSRI, MRI, SNRIs..). These people are saying that small doses of buprenorphine is the only thing that works for their depression. This is a concept that seems to be gaining popularity and people there are a lot of people who believe that there is actually a medical condition known as 'endogenous opiod deficiency'. Obviously chronic use of opiates would cause this type of deficiency, however what about people who take opiates for the first time and feel like they've found that something that has been missing all their life... an example given by MrJim in https://drugs-forum.com/threads/32115 Buprenorphine is already being used as an off label anti-depressent in a number of people by bold physicians in patients who have responded to no other traditional anti-depressent. Is this truely a legit condition and if so, could it be caused by a mother's use of opiates while pregnant as mentioned in the link just mentioned? I believe himself that this is very likely a good possibility, however he'd like to get the opinion of people who are more familiar with psychology, pharmacology, medicine, etc. Do you think 'Endogenous Opiod Deficiency' is an actual medical condition, or do you think its just that most of these maintanence patients are just getting a little bit of euphoria from their medicine?
Many drugs have been used to treat depression, most of them better than todays depressants. Opiates, amphetamines, are the most euphoric, and they were really good in treating depression because of their effects as anyone here can understand. But, some words... The brain "functions" using chemical/electrical systems. Every part of one of those systems are connected to the other systems. Personally i don't believe that much in the current amine theory for depression, especially because when you begin to use SSRI's and NSRI's they boost the amine levels since the first day, but only begin to function 2 to 3 weeks later, so that tells me that it aint the amine levels that caused the depression but something else linked to that change in amine levels. As each amine system connects to others chemicals systems, i tend to believe that the depression lift from SSRI's is indirect... I would never use SSRI's, because they are nasty and indirect in Swie opinion. One think you should ask you doctor when they want to prescribe you SSRI's or NSRI's is: "Why it takes 2 or 3 weeks for them to function, if my serotonin/noradrenalin levels are boosted since the first days?" Your dr. will problably not be able to answer that.... Opiates are really good for depression, but only for a period of time, because most of the opiates nowadays tend to make you depressive if you take them for to long... Depressed people will have less endorphin (endogenous substances with opiate like effects) levels in their bodys/brain. I can't point a study right now but i've read it somewhere credible. But if you treat depression with opioids you will be within some time (can be a lot) depressive and addicted to opioids too.. A possibility for "treating" depression with opioids maybe in the Kappa/Delta systems. But they seem complex and one seems to antagonize the other. The better opioid like substances for working out depression in nowadays may be: buprenorphine, salvia divinorum, and maybe tramadol.
What about methadone, ethyl? It has such a long lasting effect that if we choose to ignore it's severe addictive capabilities, maybe that could be one to add to the list of potentials? I think one of the problems with a proposed opioid treatment plan would be the same that they ran into when barbituites were all the presciptive rage... you just keep needing more to achieve the same effects.
Isn't the reason why opiates are effective as antidepressants in people who have suffered from opiate addiction (even unknowingly as a baby) that their body's ability to produce endogenous opioids is impaired due to regular administration of opiates? Wouldn't our body become lazy (by lack of a scientific word) to produce opioids itself if much stronger opiates were taken for some time? And wouldn't a developing foetus, when constantly administered opiates in it's bloodflow, somehow change the way his endogenous opioid system was build? There would be less reason (from a biological viewpoint) to have it finely tuned, if it constantly receives opiates. Sorry if I am pointing out something too obvious. Is Endogenous Opioid Deficiency a medical condition? In a way. Maybe it can be explained by using the image of tolerance. When using opiates, your tolerance will steadily go up, you'll need to use more to get the same effect. Reverse this, and you'll know why depression can get relief from opiates. Your opioid receptors are tuned to a large dose of opiates, what the body produces itself will not have the effect it should have. The opioid receptors will not set themselves back into the default position as easily as your tolerance does, they always remember what they were once set to. That will make use of opiates feel like 'coming home'. Treating depression with opiates will have a paradoxal effect. In time it will make the deficiency bigger, Swim thinks. Not to speak of the other negative effects. But that does not mean the idea of opioid deficiency isn't valid. Maybe, someday, something can be done with it.
Methadone because it lasts that long, tends to saturate the opioid receptors with daily use (specially at high doses, but with more time with low doses too) leading to a constant binding in there. With time methadone users tend to be bored because every moment is the same.. The high/feel good effect is the difference between the previous state of taking the substance and the after state. with methadone it tends to be no high with frequent use because the receptors are allways flooded.. And because of that long term high dose methadone users tend to be bored cause them don't feel their endogenous opioids. Mathematical Equation: High = (After state of mind) - (Previous state of mind) Note: - is (minus)
I knew this is what a lot of people would immediately think when reading this, however, the argument for Endogenous Opiod Deficiency is that the reason for addiction in the first place was due to this as a pre-existing condition, or an opiod deficiency in the brain that was present before the person used the substance for the first time. I personally am undecided on the issue, until I see more studies. Buprenorphine is the main drug being argued as useful to treat this suggested condition. I've found a lot of recent studies on this, that show supporting information on this, however I've been reading them on sites the support the use of buprenorphine so they could be subject to some bias.
Evolution has fine tuned the human mind not for everyday feelings of deep satisfaction and profound pleasure but solely for increasing our chances of passing on our DNA. It is human nature to never quite be happy and always want more out of life. Our hungry, anxious and driven ancestors were more motivated and successful than the satisfied and content ones.The natural human condition is an Endorphin Deficiency. Oh the humanity!
Long term opiates defo do increase depression I believe drugs like methadone, subutex, slow release oral morphine are just not effective for relieving long term depression etc.. I believe...after having been on them mental health issues definately get worse... Unfortunately after a couple of months the only opiates that are gonna boost mood are the big ones .... aka herion/ diamorphine... and obviously using this illegally are a bit of a double edged sword.... Some ppl say that methadone/subutex helps with mood disorders but personally I feel they have absoultey no positive mental health benefit apart from keeping one stable and arent gonna give you a good life! After speaking to a few ppl I believe that H is pretty much the only opiate out there that You is gonna take and be still be happpy to take after several years but obviously tis would be on a prescription which aint gonna happen apart from a lucky few... If serotonion deficiency exists and there are medication for that then surely the endorphins can suffer the same fate so if the medical profession are right on chemical deficinies then its very unlikey endorphins can't be skewed also.... Exercise though can help a lot with this feeling and is probaly the best option when alls said and done..
I know this is a very old thread, but I thought it was important to add a new development. Tianeptine, a weak u-opioid receptor agonist as well as a modulator of the AMPA and NMDA receptors has been approved in some countries for major depressive disorder. As someone who abused opiates frequently as a teenager, it wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that some dysfunction of the endogenous opiate systems is present. It'd be interesting to note how it affects my mood long-term, and will eventually get around to trying it. When I do I'll make a detailed report on it's long-term effects. Robo
