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Health - Oversensitivity to DXM / CYP2D6 Enzyme deficiancy

Discussion in 'DXM' started by ironmics, Aug 29, 2006.

  1. ironmics

    ironmics Silver Member

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    SWIM's always been interested in DXM and it's power, so swim took 300 mg about a year ago. The effects were way way to intense and swim only felt like curling up in a ball and hoped it would go away. Swim induced vomitting and went to sleep. Is swim just really sensative and should take lesser doses or does swims body just hate dxm? Basically I'm just looking for any advice about why this happened to him.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2009
  2. bewilderment

    bewilderment Drug Geek Extraordinaire

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    Well, swim's first dxm dosage to test the waters was around 150mg or so. She first got acquainted with a first plateau trip which she found enjoyable. Swim can see how 300mg could be a bit much if one is especially sensitive to the effects, but swim has many friends who first tried it out around 300mg or more and they all had a good time. Can swiy think of any factors that may have contributed to this reaction? Also, what kind of preparation was the dxm in? Syrup, gels, or what? There weren't any other active ingredients were there?

    Also, keep in mind that many people just do not enjoy the effects of dxm. Drugs affect everyone a bit differently. For example, swim loves dissociatives (basing this on experiences with NO2, DXM, Ketamine, and Salvia) but for some reason she's never had a typical trip with salvia despite trying many methods...when she actually does get effects they are either slight or very unpleasant. Does swiy have any experience with other dissociatives?

    Oh, and what does swiy mean by "too intense"? Was it psychologically too intense or were there negative physical reactions or both?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2006
  3. ironmics

    ironmics Silver Member

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    Well Swim didn't even experience that many really hallucinations besides tracers. The 300 mg were in the form of gel caps with only 15mg DXM HBr in them. Swim tried syrup once, but his body doesn't deal well with menthol. The experience was too physically intense, and gave him the feeling that he fucked up big time. Also swim was sick for a few days after. Swim has had much more experience with various drugs since then, so maybe he'll give it another try.
     
  4. psychedelaholic

    psychedelaholic Donating

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    SWIY shouldn't expect proper hallucinations from a 300mg dose. Full on visuals don't come until higher doses or at least for SWIM. Last time SWIM robo tripped he took a 500mg capsule and felt completely fucked all day with no visuals at all, just extremely inebriated. When SWIM came to go to sleep and turned off his bedroom light that was when the visuals started. People started walking around SWIMs room in the darkness and sitting in front of him on his bed. They were dark figures but SWIM could make out if they were male or female. His ceiling then dissapeared and was replaced by a tree canopy and stars.

    SWIM has only experienced full on visuals in day light when he took 900mg, however he didn't mean to do this he meant to take 500mg but his mates scales screwed up. That was only SWIMs 3rd time on DXM so needless to say he had a pretty bad time. DXM is something SWIY has to work his way up with. Try again with 150-200mg see how it goes and then increase dosage accordingly.
     
  5. bewilderment

    bewilderment Drug Geek Extraordinaire

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    Don't expect open-eye visuals such as tracers. I'm surprised swiy even saw tracers because swim never experienced any open-eye visuals unless she was on the upper level of the third plateau or on the fourth plateau (this only happened a few times, but she's pretty sure it was 4th plateau...the room was breathing slightly and swim lost most touch with reality, she even thought there were some people having a party in her hallway even though she was just living with her mother and she was sound asleep). But, one really doesn't miss the open-eye visuals because the closed-ones are really enough to keep a person entertained throughout the duration of the trip (that is, if one has taken a significant enough dosage to have intense CEV's).

    DXM does carry a heavy body load, but swim always found it pleasurable (so long as there was no nausea)...it was a warm, relaxed, and empathic feeling (I've heard people describe it both as a feeling with ecstacy-like properties or like that of alcohol intoxication). Was it nausea that was bothersome and that's why it was physically too intense? Or did swiy start shaking a bit or something of that sort (swim's had problems with this in the past and so have some of her friends)? The body will tend to feel very heavy and weighed down during a DXM trip and there is a dramatic loss of motor skills and coordination. Swim remembers one of her first trips with dxm when she went outside to check the mail and it felt like it took hours to make it to the end of her driveway because she had this feeling as if the gravity was not strong enough to keep her on the earth and she was going to fly off of this giant spinning rock at any given moment. This is why swim would always just lay down for most of the trip if not all of it. Moving around is quite difficult just as it is with all dissociatives.

    The cough gels are a good choice so I see no problem with using those. It sounds as if swiy is just unusually sensitive to the effects for some reason. It's also possible that swiy could be deficient of the liver enzyme, CYP2D6, which is responsible for metabolizing DXM into DXO (both DXM and DXO contribute significantly to the trip, not just the DXM). Here's a short little abstract about a study done on those deficient in the liver enzyme (it's not uncommon):
    If this is the case then one should avoid DXM entirely because lacking this enzyme GREATLY increases the risk of an overdose that could require hospitalization and could even be fatal. But, I don't know of any way to determine whether or not a person is deficient other than medical tests. The above study said that the poor metabolizers barely tolerated a 3mg/kg dosage. Based on the common calculations for determining dosage, 2.5-7.5 mg/kg is a 2nd plateau trip so 3mg would be a 2nd plateau for a person who is not deficient in the enzyme. If swiy feels this could be the case, then I wouldn't recommend retrying DXM.

    If swiy isn't convinced and is going to try again anyway, I would suggest taking a very, very low dosage to test things out...1.5-2.5 mg/kg is considered a first plateau trip so I'd recommend trying out about 1mg/kg which shouldn't really be enough to trip. If swiy finds that this dosage is intense then swiy is probably deficient of the CYP2D6 enzyme and should steer clear of dxm in the future.
     
  6. 420sublime420

    420sublime420 Silver Member

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    Everyone's body is different, but 300mg should not have been too intence, but then again dissociatives can be powerful and overwhelming drugs, especially for people who don't usually expierement with a wide variety of substances. Maybe you were just not in the right mindset, too stressed, or the chemical balance in your body was a little off...
     
  7. delphinen

    delphinen Mercury Member

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    highly sensitive to DXM?

    SWIM has experienced 1st plateau trips with 100mg, and second plateau trips with 130-150mg. SWIM weights 80kg, so this dosage should not make SWIM trip so hard.
    SWIM has also experienced a very hard 3rd plateau dose, psychotic break included, with 180mg.
    Also, SWIM never puke.

    could be that SWIM is very sensitive to DXM?
     
  8. roryDXM

    roryDXM Newbie

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    if SWIY is at the third plateau at 180 then he probably is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2007
  9. El Calico Loco

    El Calico Loco

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    Swim could be one of the slow-metabolizers mentioned in the DXM FAQ. Such people can't convert DXM to DXO efficiently, so wind up having a lot more DXM floating around in their heads while the body tries to convert it to 3MM. Tell your friend to be very careful.

    http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/faq/dxm_physiological.shtml#toc.9.5


    ECL
     
  10. delphinen

    delphinen Mercury Member

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    uhm.. now this is really scary.

    SWIM has tripped many times on DXM, and always got good trips from low dosages, what could be the problem of this 3MM thing?
    SWIM doesnt mind being sensitive and taken less and getting harder trips, thats a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  11. El Calico Loco

    El Calico Loco

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    I don't know of any problem with 3MM - the FAQ doesn't mention any. In a way, Swiy is lucky - he can have great trips from low doses. In another way, Swiy is unlucky - he can't enjoy the aspects of the DXM trip that DXO is responsible for.

    From the FAQ:

    ECL
     
  12. delphinen

    delphinen Mercury Member

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    how do I know that SWIM's converting DXM to 3HM from 3MM instead from DXO? couldnt it be that SWIM have multiple copies of the P450 gene so SWIM metabolizes DXM faster? (as said in the FAQ)

    SWIM really feels a nice euphoria from ever DXM trip, not too high though, except 1st plateau trips (100mg), in this case euphoria is very high.

    is "About 7% of Caucasians and 0.5% of Asians have a highly inefficient (70 times slower) version of this enzyme, and cannot metabolize DXM to DXO effectively (10)." different from "about 0.5 to 2% of the population have multiple copies of the P450 gene, leading to extremely fast metabolism of DXM into DXO (155). "

    I mean, if you have the inneficient "version" of the enzyme, you dont metabolize DXM to DXO, and you trip less, right?
    what happens if you have a extremely fast metabolism? wont you get even higher from high doses too?

    Thanks A LOT for your help El Calico Loco.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  13. El Calico Loco

    El Calico Loco

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    I've been wondering if I have that backwards. Let's see...a slow metabolizer gets the effects of DXM, but not DXO. A fast metabolizer would be the inverse - they would still get some effects of DXM, but their trip would be much more influenced by the DXO.

    So...I guess the question is whether Swiy's trip feels more like DXM or DXO. Your description of the "psychotic break" makes me think DXM. Does Swiy feel physically stimulated while tripping? If so, then Swiy is probably a slow metabolizer. If Swiy feels drunk and stoned instead, then it's probably the opposite.

    At any rate, I would stick to low dosages if I were Swiy.


    ECL
     
  14. delphinen

    delphinen Mercury Member

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    Well, thanks again. I suppose SWIM is a slow metabolizer -who can also experience euphoria.

    Although SWIM definitely gets euphoria from DXM (100mg, have urges to dance and move around), SWIM can also say he gets second plateau trips when he hallucinate with his eyes closed (130-150mg), and trip real hard with supposed low doses (160-180mg) ; but its not that SWIM dont get euphoria at all, its like SWIM is able to get all plateaus, but with the dosage spectrum greatly reduced.
     
  15. genaro

    genaro

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?

    Delphinem, with 180mg what do you experience exactly?

    and also, what kind of dxm are you using? is it pure dxm powder? is it pills, gellcaps or sirup from your local pharmacy? What are the active ingredients listed on the product (is it dxm only)? If that's pharmaceuticals, what's the name of the brand you're using?

    1-do you get dissociative effects?
    meaning any out of body perception? seeing yourself from another point of view in the room? any double localisation feelings? mind going on his way and dreaming when body is completely fucked up (so it's even hard to walk correctly)? any moments you really don't know what you're doing or what exactly you were doing for the last 2 minutes cause these two precedent minutes feel like a strange dream...as if your body was doing things and your mind wasn't really connected to the action, somewhat as if you were extremely drunk or dreaming?

    2-Do you feel completly out of reality, almost in another dimension/space-time continuum?

    3-what about visuals?
    meaning that when closing your eyes, do you enter a world of strange landscapes/alien visuals that you seem to belong to...unlike with acid which visuals seem to beplaying on a screen that is in front of your mind or possibly playing inside yourself (while with dxm you are transported to landscapes that you are evolving/moving into as if these were real places)

    4-Is there a mystical or alien feeling attached to the trip (in terms of perception of reality and/or in terms of nature of the experienced visuals)?

    5-How is the euphoria? do you experience an intense feeling of well-beeing? a warm tranquility? an excstatic mysticism?
    Do you also feel the opiate effect of body feeling pleasantly warm?

    6-what do you call psychotic break? delirium? paranoia? not knowing what you're doing? doing things that have no sense with no control on it?

    7-do you feel all confused or disoriented? maybe like if you were extremely drunk?

    8-do you experience double sight (seeing things in double)?

    9-does your brain (inside your skull) feels like an octopus that would be writhing inside?

    10-any physical side effects?
    such as body feeling too hot or feeling feverish, sweating, headache, flushing of the face (face all red), blood presure rise or fast heart beat, feeling pressure in your head, severe nausea or vomitting, stomach ache, bad itching?

    11-do you think about regularly drinking water during your trip?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  16. delphinen

    delphinen Mercury Member

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?



    SWIM is using the pharmaceutical Romiral syrup from Roche labs, 15mg DXM / 5ml. The only active ingredient is the DXM, the syrup has some sorbitol.

    1- SWIM got much dissociation with 180mg. SWIM forgot where he was and SWIM trembled on his bed and didnt notice it for a long time that he was trembling until the DXM started to go down.
    Apparently SWIM travelled to some place for some seconds, SWIM saw figures walking in the bottom edge of his closed eyes vision.
    SWIM didnt saw himself from a third person view specifically in that moment, but he had many flashbacks, seeing himself from a first person view many years ago when he was a child.

    2- SWIM couldnt say if he felt completely out of reality, he dont think so.

    3- Visuals were strong, but SWIM is not able to remember them very much. He apparently remember seeing some kind of farm house where the sun light entered across the roof and it felt very nice.

    4- No mystical or alien feeling. Lots of flashbacks and childhood feelings.

    5- The euphoria is like feeling great, very happy with great urges to dance. This only happens on the low plateau and on the beginning of the second plateau.

    6- Psychotic break is "coming back" to very critical moments of SWIM childhood, parents fights, problems in primary school, understanding the reason of life even when SWIM thinks he shouldnt have been born, etc. ; trembling while remembering/feeling/living this, the worst the situation, the more trembling and sweat (but SWIM didnt care, he was living his flashbacks).

    7- Confused, a little; disoriented, more or less. SWIM was able to move around very slowly, but he didnt want to.

    8- Yes, not completely double sight, but vision was a little chopped and focusing on things was very difficult.

    9- No.

    10- Just lots of sweating. Body feels great, arms and legs in particular.

    11- No.
     
  17. El Calico Loco

    El Calico Loco

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    Re: highly sensitive to DXM?



    Did Swiy lose touch with reality completely? When Swiy was experiencing this, did it feel as if Swiy was really a small child again and couldn't remember it's current life? If not, then it's not a genuine psychotic break - just a serious trip.

    In my mind, the above is one of the most useful aspects of this chemical. My friend Swim had some very ugly dissociated memories from his childhood come up during a DXM trip...things he didn't even remember, but that had affected him for his entire life. Learning this enabled him to question those who had been there, find out what had really happened, and put it behind him. He's much better now.


    ECL
     
  18. ironmics

    ironmics Silver Member

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    Re: DXM question?

    Sorry to bring up an old post, but I was searching for info about CYP2D6 relating to opiates and stumbled upon my old post. Bewilderment suggested swim was a poor metabolizer of DXM, but swim has discovered that he should be an extremely good metabolizer of it from his experience with tramadol and codiene. CYP2D6 is required to convert codiene to morphine. Doses as small as 30mg of codiene have almost morphine like effects on swim, yes he knows he lucky. Also tramadol is converted into five different metabolites by this enzyme, one of which is responsible for almost all analgesic effects. Tramadol is the best analgesic swim has ever used, yes even better than morphine. No euphoria from it, but also absolutely no pain. If swim has low 2D6 activity neither of these should be possible.
     
  19. Chunkz

    Chunkz

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    Re: DXM question?

    I've heard that certain individuals, can be extremely sensitive to it,and shouldn't take even an average dose. Also, swim probly threw up because it had acetaminophen, or something in it.
     
  20. ironmics

    ironmics Silver Member

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    Re: DXM question?

    No it was pure, he knows a lot better than to take a big dose of parecetamol