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Injecting - Phenibut - via intramuscular injection

Discussion in 'Nootropics' started by Moribund, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. Moribund

    Moribund Silver Member

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    In my opinion the quickest method of Phenibut ingestion is IM (into the deltoid muscle). I found very little info on this method online in English - practically nothing, but a copious amount of questions. So I had to dig up some old Soviet literature on the subject, take some minimal risks, learn how to do it so that I could finally write a post on it.

    Before I used to take pharmaceutical grade phenibut orally 500-750 mg every couple of days and up to 1.5 gram dose on very stressful days. Unfortunately it used to give me me bad stomach cramps, nausea and heartburn, - side effects not uncommon with many phenibut users, this is why I considered switching to IM mode in the first place.

    The trick is to get pharmaceutical grade powder (not tablets as those may contain other ingredients which are impossible to filter and could cause abscess). In my opinion it's also unsafe to inject something one bought online without any idea if it may be cut with something, non-sterile, etc. I purchased vials of phenibut for IM injection in Eastern Europe, but when I ran out I had to prepare powder for water-saline based injection.

    I discovered that the IM injection site burns in first 15-30 seconds, but if enough water added to the solution the burning shouldn't be at all intense and will quickly go away followed by a feeling of floating and light drunkenness within 3-5 minutes after injection.

    If someone is in my situation in regards to intestinal discomfort of per-oral phenibut, or just wants a quick-setting recreational high I would like to post the following advice on IM phenibut

    1. Do not inject into the buttocks. It will hurt A LOT more and a little longer :cry: A Deltoid or medium sized muscle away from large nerves is always preferable.

    2. How much to inject - this is a bit risky as it depends on one's body weight, tolerance, etc. I weigh around a 100 kilos and the most I ever injected into the muscle at once was just under 400 mg (which was clearly way too much, i wouldn't advise it!). Will suffice to say that starting with very small doses is safest - in any case one needs a lot less phenibut than one takes orally.

    3. Always bring your powder to a boil (especially if it came from the web - you will need to take some orally first just to make sure it's really phenibut and not something else), filter it properly and be very sterile about it, your tools and injection site. Don't overcook - it may destroy Phenibut's potency.

    4. What is the right amount of water? (How much burning can you handle ?:) This also depends on quantity of powder. The mixture should be just slightly saline otherwise it will hurt more and it will take longer for muscle to recover.

    5. Although IM method will not cause any abdominal discomfort and won't put as much stress on your liver as oral phenibut, the kidneys will still have to filter much of it, which can be quite stressful for them, so it's important not to overdo it even if you're feeling just fine.

    6. It's probably best to sit down, lie down or recline in the first 10-15 minutes after injection. I sometimes experienced initial dizziness, short-lasting but powerful. Thus driving/operating heavy machinery immediately after an IM injection is a pretty bad and irresponsible idea.

    7. How long will it last? Again it depends on your metabolism. I found that it lasts about 70% of the time per-oral phenibut normally lasts with me. The good thing is - it produces far less of a hangover the next day. Shoulder soreness is very superficial and does not interfere with work.

    8. Please treat this info carefully. Just because I have a good relationship with this method of use, doesn't mean everyone will.

    Enjoy!
     
  2. ashxcore

    ashxcore Silver Member

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    Thank you! Someone recommended phenibut to me with such glowing reports, but the slooooooow onset I've read about puts me off, especially for anxiety-related issues. When hearing that it is water soluble and that some members of the bodybuilding community inject it, I just knew I had to start looking for data on intramuscular injections.
     
  3. seaturtle

    seaturtle Titanium Member

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    Phenibut is acidic, which is revealed in its full name β-phenyl-γ-aminobutyric acid. You mention that oral phenibut gave you indigestion, cramps, and nausea, which is probably due to phenibut being acidic and corrosive in the digestive system.

    Which brings me to my question, how can you be sure you aren't damaging your veins and muscles with these IM injections? I figure phenibut is acidic regardless of how you take it, so it might be corroding your insides.

    Additionally, phenibut is extremely addictive when taken orally, so I imagine it becomes even more addictive when injected. Be safe, and realize you're going to go through some bad withdrawal to get off phenibut.
     
  4. Moribund

    Moribund Silver Member

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    As far as addiction is concerned - my phenibut withdrawals are so extremely mild that I am not worried about them. I have tried to quit phenibut abruptly before a number of times. The only side effect for me is tremendous tiredness and laziness as well as cognitive decline and clumsiness which abates in about 4 days. Personally - it doesn't come even close to the severity of opiate withdrawals.

    I NEVER would consider injecting phenibut into the vein unless it is pharmacy grade and already comes in vials intended and labeled for IV. The Russian manuals I have read suggest an extremely small IV dose by comparison to IM or per-oral, and I believe it needs to be properly formulated as well.

    As far as muscle damage, - I have reasons to doubt that it's as significant as to present a danger to my well-being. First of all - phenibut isn't as corrosive as some other approved injections. Those who ever had an iron or vitamin B12 injection know just how painful it can be, and, some patients do complain of slow healing and complications. Phenibut is NOTHING like that. I would describe the pain as much more superficial. Injection site heals very quickly. Of course, not overdoing it into the same spot is essential unless one does want to feel very sore and, possibly develop a problem - but it's like that with every substance one injects.

    In Russia, Belarus and Ukraine phenibut is frequently administered via intramuscular injection to the elderly and patients with digestive disorders. Had there been any special incidence of abscesses or gangrene in the patients as a result - I doubt this method would have been practiced since the early 1970s.

    But, thank you for your concern, nonetheless.

    Obviously I realize that this method is not for everyone. If one had never injected anything before (like testosterone for example) and doesn't know what is normal for a muscle to feel like during and after injection, the spot, the type of needle, etc. or how to prepare an IM injection properly, - they should stay away from this method. It's for more seasoned "injection buffs" and those who have been trained to perform blood work and injections.
     
  5. Moribund

    Moribund Silver Member

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    I must say, after a long break for 4 to 7 days, first IM injection feels pretty intense. First hour and 30 minutes it's like a weird mix of opiates and minor tranquilizers. Muscles feel warm and cozy. No desire to sleep however and no nod (wrong drug :), of course).

    I was having a really rough day, felt pretty depressed and didn't at all expect how profoundly an IM injection of phenibut would change my mood. Not turn it to euphoric, but made it very pleasantly detached.

    One thing I noticed is inconsistency of the initial discomfort after the injection, despite exactly the same dose, site and concentration. Sometimes it only feels like a tiny pinprick and the slight burning disappears in less than 10 seconds completely, while other times there will be some minor discomfort up to a minute after.

    Unfortunately my IM supply is running low. It will be a while before I can get more. The only non-pharmaceutical grade that I know from experience to be safe for IM also happens to contain a smaller proportion of GABA in the mix (which many researchers believe to be biologically inactive). Some claim that it does penetrate blood brain barrier when injected, but I have yet so far to notice any effects from it.

    And I just hate trying new powders from stores or online. It's tough when you cannot trust someone impartial like an independent licensing commission to watch over manufacture practices :(
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  6. MusiciansMallet

    MusiciansMallet Silver Member

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    Any updates? Any further testing?

    I use around 3-6g orally.. but also hate the hangover. However, it makes me nod like a mother fucker, very very opiatish--although that may be some synergetic effect w/ my buprenorphine. But i do not care for the hangover (tend not to get any nausea/vomiting, but do get a light stomach.. but i sleep like a rock, i'm just irritable, dizzy, & get this "fish-eyed" effect as if you're really fucking drunk.. that is, until i get benzos in me).

    But, right now.. i'm trying to stretch an etizolam supply till my next one comes in--which phenibut is, for me at least, quite adequate in doing--i will go down from 2-6x day dosing etizolam to just once w/ phenibut for sometimes 1.5-2 days. But my phenibut supply is a bit low, so, i'd like to stretch that as well :rolleyes:

    ALSO, anyone try the FAA (free-amino-acid) version yet? Its supposedly more potent and non-acidic, have a closer to neutral pH. I've even read a few reports of recent IV use on a different forum. But since they're more harm reduction related than information-based; the poor guy was basically shot down from asking further questions.

    MusiciansMallet added 30 Minutes and 59 Seconds later...

    I just IM'd 380mg (the butyric, aka, the "acidic" version--not the free-amino-acid version)- slight burn, nothing too bad. I started low w/ my tolerance, 380 mg.. feel a bit woozy and light, need a cigarette :smoker: etizolam cravings are gone. That's a good thing. I'll see where i'm at in an hour & may repeat in my other other arm.. or should I try sooner/later? Moribund- when did you seem to "plateau"? Or fully start to realize the effects?

    And, btw I just used distilled water in a 3cc, 1 inch syringe--and i weigh 170 w/ slightly large deltoid muscles for my size.

    Well, I don't know its been roughly 5 minutes.. and as i'm typing this, i'm getting all the positive effects of phenibut--definite anxiolysis; I was craving my etizolam and now have no need/desire for it. No nodding, yet. Although, that usually happens about 5-8 hours after dosing for me (orally). We'll see if that happens via this route in 3-4 hours? And if i decide to redose?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  7. Mindless

    Mindless Gold Member

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    For now at least it might be prudent to avoid re-dosing. Although Moribund found the duration of effects to be briefer this may not apply to all. I'm also concerned about the implications of avoiding first-pass metabolism.

    Duration of effects and plasma levels via this route of administration could be unknown, I cannot find any reference to how phenibut is given by intramuscular injection in Belarus or the Ukraine. There's not enough available information to assess the potential risks. Confusion, dizzines, somnolence, nausea, allergic reactions and kidney dysfunction seem to have been reported. Given the route of administration any allergic reactions may be more likely to occur systemically.

    Making any online or self-assessment of potential risks is not possible. If you begin to experience nausea, vomiting, lethargy, abdominal pain, difficulty breathing, difficulty swallowing, facial flushes, palpitations, swelling of face, eyes or tongue, or feel unwell in any way, your first choice should be to summon medical assistance.

    The following advice applies to infection prevention where intramuscular injection is the choice of adminstration:
    Intramuscular Injection Wiki.

    Please let us know how you're getting on.

    See the Phenibut Wiki and Pharmaceutical Phenibut - Physician & Patient Instructions (translated from Russian).
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  8. MusiciansMallet

    MusiciansMallet Silver Member

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    Hey thanks for your concern.. did hurt at injection sites (ended up redosing 2-3x), around 700mg highest dose; but after doing further research, i found someVERY important information the OP'er left out on several medical sites:

    • Deltoid? Should only handle 1mL of liquid, or else you risk an minor abscess that'll take a bit of time to heal.
    • The thigh is much better area for injection where it can handle a bit more, 4mL. Although its a bit more painful, i just pull out & restick (yes i know, a no no) in my other thigh. It leaves no lumps like anything over 1mL of liquid injected in a deltoid will.
    • My thigh could easily handle 1500mg.
    • Soreness usually lasts ~24 hours, then you can walk fine w/o any pain.

    I did end up IV'ing the stuff a couple of times, but only a few times, to avoid acidosis.. & i'll tell you what, it hardens your veins quick if you don't have the FAA version (free formed amino acid). I can't use my old-trusty now for a while b/c i VERY PAINFULLY missed part of a shot & its been taking a few days to slowly slow down (even after applying heat). I know the vein's still go, b/c i registered lower down where this vein is (but i can barely see it there, & don't want to waste rigs having to keep resticking)--so, i'm i think i've finaly found two trusty new sites. I still can't keep a register in my fucking hands.. & i use 30 gauges.

    Anywho, that's my experience. The OP'er was correct--its definitely more effective than oral; w/ no GI symptoms & nodding just as intense.
     
  9. doesit

    doesit Silver Member

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    When it comes to phenibut id imagine some weight lifters,shooting up steroids or some other stuff to bulk up,but this substance given its acidity and little research and starting to shoot up,just for 30min earlier onset is just leading down hill when one becomes ok with using needles.

    Why not just take it hour or so earlier and be ok with it as it works great mixed with water alone.

    But if one is using this more then recommended or even increasing dosages then start reading forums where people are addicted to it and cant get off it since dosages dont work anymore and effects they get are short lived.

    Im not against any researches done in medical environment where everything is monitored,but testing yourself as a lab rat,with phenibut aint worth it,as gain is little and consequences can be long term.

    Treat phenibut with respect many people already realized that it works wonders,but there's only few people that can stick to routine where they would take it as long apart as possible to have same releief from it and not get hooked up.
     
  10. MusiciansMallet

    MusiciansMallet Silver Member

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    First, i apologize for being short w/ you if i seem that way? But i've explained in several posts over and over and over as to why i am temporarily using phenibut in this manner

    Its not for quicker onset, although that is part of the effects--it completely minimizes hangover effects to near non-existence, for me atleast.

    No, it really doesn't--the hangover effect is really irritating and impossible for me to manage without high doses of GABA-a agonists, which i'd prefer not to use. Not to mention the horrible next day nausea, lack of appetite, and explosive diarrhea with are NOT resolved by GABA-a positive modulators.

    i'm fully aware of the horrors of GABA-b agonist addiction; i've tried to explain ad nauseam i'm merely using this temporarily to stretch out a very very low etizolam supply. I cycle my uses between 1-2 weeks max with no problem; if that even. Most of the time I only use if i can afford a bit extra. But my etizolam comes in tomorrow, so this wont be a concern. I just think it a bit odd how people keep trying to quell the dissemination of information on this? Aka, the thigh is a better area to intramuscularly inject than the deltoid,generally speaking.

    I've been through severe GABA-a positive allosteric modulator withdrawal (barbiturate withdrawal, taken for epilepsy)--spent 13 days in the ICU (treated w/ IV lorazepam, 2mg/hr) for an accidental overdose of butalbital. Followed by 32 subsequent days in a psychiatric "hospital" (if you could call it that), where my four seizures went untreated & was given no GABAergics. The 2 days of edginess after 2 weeks of no phenibut use is absolutely nothing.

    Again, read above. Read my previous comments. As i've stated, ad nauseam.. this is not a long term solution & do not plan on even using phenibut more than several instances. I do not enjoy the drug as I am on the individuals where the effects (orally) take effect about 6-12 hours later & intertwine with the hangover. Intramuscular, and very very very limited intravenous use; (preferably the free-formed-amino-acid version) mixed with low oral doses ( <4mg) is the only way I can ever take this drug.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  11. Adas

    Adas Silver Member

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    I see people talking about injecting the free amino acid. Let me remind you that free Phenibut is INSOLUBLE! You can see that upon mixing the solutions of Phenibut HCl and sodium bicarbonate, there is a percipitate (free Phenibut). There is no way to dissolve free Phenibut in water for injections.

    Just sayin'.
     
  12. doesit

    doesit Silver Member

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    If last post was meant for me,then i meant to mix it with water to take orally,not to shoot it up.
    As for poster i agree i maybe missed your couple points on why you used it this way.But hangover is experienced if one is doing higher dosages then recommended.I felt symptoms myself of how bad it feels when taken too much,but once found sweet spot the discomfort is really not much an issue,unless taken couple days in a row.since if you take break once taken you can usually go by your day feeling little discomfort.

    Also have a read on Picamoline-check spell on that,and l-theanine as many report similar effects to benzos with less side effects.
     
  13. MusiciansMallet

    MusiciansMallet Silver Member

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    IM injection most certainly is entirely superior to oral. As far as IV goes, this was only attempted several times, but was equally potent, but not by much, seeing as IM'ing favorable aside from the pain. My only point is the thigh will take more injection than the deltoid for more individuals who are of average muscle mass.

    FAA version can be soluble in PEG, which is what i'd plan to use; and/or just orally as it seems a lot of the adverse effects are mitigated.

    Look i didn't start the topic, i just contributed my experience. Would not recommend long term IM use (or especially IV use) what so ever though, ad nauseam I was explaining WHY I have resorted to this use (as i know my way around psychedelics--w/ my other handle over at s 11 years now).

    But, i usually have to eject the needle halfway; switch BD tips real quick (BD IM attachable intramuscular syringes are far far superior) & hit my other thigh to stand the pain.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2014
  14. Adas

    Adas Silver Member

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    My post was not directed to anyone specially, rather general.

    I would be VERY careful with using PEG for injections. I've never heard of this, it might cause you SEVERE problems. Do a lots of research before attempting anything like that!
     
  15. MusiciansMallet

    MusiciansMallet Silver Member

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    PEG, aka, propylene glycol.. well, you've probably consumed it thousands of times in preservatives and in other food-products, & it being one of the few more readily available solvents for non-water soluble diazepines. In regards to injection; i had subcutaneously injected it w/ etizolam for experimental purposes. Did not notice anything, definitely no irritation; but not much effect either; taking about 24-48 hours for the small bump to slooowly dissolve. But intramuscular is much different & sensitive.. & yes, if needed..

    i will certainly do all necessary research of IM+PG, but, i haven't even tested solubility yet? :eek:

    Just got a 100g bottle of the FAA so i'm sticking w/ sublingual & oral for now until/if it gets bad enough. Then we'll start digging around. But +3 hours in, no GI disturbances at all. a bit more potent. Reportedly insufflation works too; i did around 330mg, no burn at all--notice minor anxiety relief (my etizolam is a day late, & only have one dose left for the whooole day. but now? think i'll be aaaall right :cool:

    May have to move to phenibut off etizolam, seeing how my fucking subutex doctor will not do a GC/MS test to confirm WHICH benzo supposedly "showed up" in my UA (etizolam was only in my system, & mayoclinic--where they've had to send samples to before--doesn't even screen for etizolam, nor any other US lab i'm aware of)--i'll probably have to transition somehow. My doctor wont even release my own UA records he has so i can bring it up w/ the lab at the hospital (hospital should have them though).

    Anyway, to sum it all up--HCl version is definitely 5-6x more potent via IM; the few times I did IM the HCl I prefer the thigh b/c i'm a bit thin, fluctuate between 170-180 at 6'0". but i can't imagine a continuously intramuscularly injected acid being too healthy on tissue.. & make sure you research methods & modes on how/where to properly inject, especially in the thigh. You don't want to hit an artery, but it can take nearly 5mL of fluid at its thickest point for the avg person, whereas the deltoid can only take 1-2mL.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2014
  16. Adas

    Adas Silver Member

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    Ouch, but PEG is not propylene glycol! It is polyethylene glycol. Be careful with this.

    It's nice to hear that the freebase is nasally active, I've always wondered about this.
     
  17. Budgetadvisoryservice

    Budgetadvisoryservice Blue Water Scum Silver Member

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    Polyethylene glycol 400 (PEG-400) has been used in injections. However, limited data are available concerning the toxicity of a high dose of PEG-400 following intravenous (i.v.) injection. The aim of the present study was to estimate the systemic toxicity and toxicokinetics of a high dose of PEG-400 in dogs following i.v. injection. Twenty-four dogs were divided into four groups: a control group receiving normal saline and three test groups receiving 4.23, 6.34, and 8.45 g/kg of PEG-400, respectively, by i.v. injection once a day for 30 days. The repeated-dose toxicity of PEG-400 was assessed. Toxicokinetic parameters of PEG-400 in dogs were estimated on days 1 and 30. Dry mouth and dry nasal mucus membrane were observed in dogs treated with 6.34 and 8.45 g/kg of PEG-400. Cloudy swelling of kidney cell and increased glomerular volume were observed in dogs treated with 8.45 g/kg of PEG-400 when the animals were sacrificed 24 hours after the last injection. No significant histological changes were found 21 days later. Repeated dosing did not affect the toxicokinetic profile of PEG-400 in dogs. This study has shown that the toxicity of a high dose of PEG-400 following repeated intravenous injections is low, and alterations produced are reversible.

    PMID 21314471 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
     
  18. novak.d420

    novak.d420 Newbie

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    I did this on 11/10/2015 at 6pm with 450mg of phenibut with a 20 gauge needle (ouch!) split between my thigh and deltoid (both left). In the morning, 6 am, I consumed 5 grams of phenibut before work; after work, 4 pm, I consumed 1.5 grams; At 5pm, I consumed another 3.5 grams. I decided to try IM (first time injecting anything and prob only time) because I just wanted to get fucked up. I am a once-twice weekly phenibut user, I have a very high tolerance to all GABA-A/GABA-B agonists. It did burn a bit and left me sore. I could not notice a difference in my buzz (probably needed more). Overall, I find patience and timing with oral dosing to be most pleasant over injection, sublingual, or rectal.