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Drug info - Please review: Psilocybe Mushroom Use Basics

Discussion in 'Magic Mushrooms (Psilocybe & Amanita)' started by Alfa, May 5, 2005.

  1. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Gold Member

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    Probably dud mushrooms. Even swallowing active mushrooms whole would probably produce some effects. Chewing them, even just enough to swallow them, should also produce the desired effects. Chewing them for longer might make a little difference but not much.
     
  2. chilliker

    chilliker Silver Member

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    How does I know when the shroom is correctly dry? I heard leaving them at room temp will work ok but how to know when they are done?
     
  3. Alfa

    Alfa Productive Insomniac Staff Member Administrator

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    They will snap, instead of bending. If magic mushrooms are kept to wet, they will go bad. (other fungus and bacteria)
     
  4. Gradient

    Gradient Chem|EB|DMT

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    I would be quite grateful if someone with expertise could talk about the psilocybin content of 'abort' cubensis mushrooms? I have read information advising to inspect for any kind of black growth inside of the stalk, and that the head is basically always toxic. Is there any kind of dosage scale that could be recommended?
     
  5. moda00

    moda00 R.I.P. Platinum Member & Advisor R.I.P.

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    My first thought- Possibly some of the info from WhiteRhino420 and myself (moda00) and others' posts from this thread?? https://drugs-forum.com/threads/26654 Your call, I won't retype it all, and perhaps that is more of suggestions rather than factual information about mushrooms.. but I think it could be a valid part of an FAQ to include some basics on the impact of set/setting and ways to go about preparing for an experience, especially for first time users. And possibly the Shulgin rating scale for psychedelic experiences in general and/or the different levels of mushrooms experiences listed in the aforementioned thread.. copy/paste:

    Level 1: 0.79 Grams
    This level produces a mild "stoning" effect, with some visual enhancement (i.e. brighter colours, etcetera). Some short term memory anomalies. Left/right brain communication changes causing music to sound "wider".

    Level 2: 1.34 Grams
    Bright colors, and visuals (i.e. things start to move and breathe), some 2 dimensional patterns become apparent upon shutting eyes. Confused or reminiscent thoughts. Change of short term memory leads to continual distractive thought patterns. Vast increase in creativity becomes apparent as the natural brain filter is bypassed.

    Level 3: 2.38 Grams
    Very obvious visuals, everything looking curved and/or warped patterns and kaleidoscopes seen on walls, faces etc. Some mild hallucinations such as rivers flowing in wood grained or "mother of pearl" surfaces. Closed eye hallucinations become 3 dimensional. There is some confusion of the senses (i.e. seeing sounds as colors, etcetera). Time distortions and "moments of eternity".

    Level 4: 3.65 Grams
    Strong hallucinations, i.e. objects morphing into other objects. Destruction or multiple splitting of the ego. (Things start talking to you, or you find that you are feeling contradictory things simultaneously). Some loss of reality. Time becomes meaningless. Out of body experiences and e.s.p. type phenomena. Blending of the senses.

    Level 5: 4.92 Grams
    Total loss of visual connection with reality. The senses cease to function in the normal way. Total loss of ego. Merging with space, other objects, or the universe. The loss of reality becomes so severe that it defies explanation. The earlier levels are relatively easy to explain in terms of measureable changes in perception and thought patterns. This level is different in that the actual universe within which things are normally perceived, ceases to exist! Satori enlightenment (and other such labels).

    It does have dosages that correspond, which could be kind of confusing so could be omitted.. But honestly I found myself a little confused by reading the section about the different doses (in the OP) for different species- good to differentiate this, and one of the issues was just formatting- space them out a bit more and make it easier to read- but the other issue is that culturally this may be different for people- for example, swim gets mushrooms in her area, and they are always dried psilocybin mushrooms (she doesn't know the strain). A low/beginner dose is generally accepted as 1-1.75 grams, a moderate/normal dose is 3-3.5 grams, and a heavy/intense dose is 4-6 grams. So perhaps have the chart with the dried and fresh gram equivalents for the different species like you have already, which may be really helpful to some in some areas, and then maybe a more simplified chart, such as the above, and possibly incorporate both the more simplified dosing for standard dried mushrooms in the U.S. and the levels..? I don't know. I am wired (naturally wired, not a chemically induced wiredness) and took some clonazepam to try and get her to go get some sleep since she has a massage appointment in the morning in like five hours, and it's just hitting, so forgive any incoherent ramblings for the time.. :)

    Also, in the mainstream drug literature the often use positive/negative/neutral effects to classify each drug. Perhaps not assigning value to them in that way, but a comprehensive list of effects that can happen- from laughter and increased color perception, to loss of self/identity, to connections with nature, to physiological effects such as pupil dilation, the possibility of nausea, etc. I would be more than willing to actually type out some of these sections and pieces of information for you to look over and edit as you see fit, if you would like, as opposed to just throwing general ideas out there.. but just want to know your thoughts on what is appropriate to include before I start compiling info and compiling the descriptions. If that chart were to be included this would cover a lot of the subjective and perceptual effects; would maybe just need to add a bit about the physiological ones.

    And also perhaps something about interactions- obviously they are a fairly safe and natural fungus, so it's not like chemical interactions are likely, but perhaps just the general combos that might be encountered with Rx meds or other drugs and how these influence the effect- again, not by saying "this will kill you" or make you have a "bad trip" -just an objective survey of reported effects from combos. And perhaps a mention of the possibilities of using substances as I mentioned in my post to deal with any nausea, anxiety, etc. (pros/cons, experiences, herbal/plant based alternatives to chems/pharmaceuticals, which the latter I know admittedly little about, but would be glad to research and come up with a rough draft)

    Also, someone mentioned legal status- erowid could be a good resource for some of this info- obviously an FAQ couldn't possibly cover all the legal information, but to give the basics while making it known that it is an individual's responsibility to know their local laws..

    And maybe some mention of current events in the news and scientific community- the study regarding mystical experiences in theological students, the Netherlands ban and how that came about, highlights of one or two other recent research studies about the mushrooms, etc.

    Perhaps I'm getting too technical here, or too detailed/comprehensive~ perhaps you are just going for the basics- chemical properties, dosing, species, methods of ingestion, immediate effects, etc. But if you'd consider adding a section on the brief history of the mushroom, I would love to type something up about mushrooms and ritual/religion in ancient cultures and groups, and how this dichotomy between a natural and spiritual substance, and an illegal and feared "drug" (not that it is not a drug, I just put this in quotes because the term tends to connote something very different from the intent and history of this sacred fungus) came about- ie. a little background on R. G. Wasson and the Maria Sabina story and the Mayans mushroom artifacts..

    Obviously an FAQ needs to be to the point and easy to read.. but do let me know if you feel any of this could potentially be a part of it and I'd be happy to help and start compiling things for you to review/edit as you see fit. Thanks. Let me know!
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  6. Mr. Giraffe

    Mr. Giraffe Palladium Member

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    I have consulted my cat, who has taken magic mushrooms a number of times, over a number of his terribly interesting lifetimes. He has reviewed the levels descriptions posted above. He tells me that he must apologise if he upsets anybody who lives by such things, but he finds it to be outrageously subjective. He is convinced beyond a doubt that the mushroom induces a genuine spiritual experience in the sense that it quite literally facilitates contact with deceased individuals as well as the personal overself. In this context, he believes that attempts to interpret the flight from the body and self and to reduce it to fairly uninteresting secondary effects is to quite spectacularly miss the point.

    Similarly, my cat (who apologises for his bluntness but who says that his life is too short to beat about the bush) tells me that talk of 7 gram trips is pure stupidity. Talk of combining mushrooms with synthetic drugs is stupidity. Mushrooms and alcohol in combination are a recipe for disaster. Cannabis or other herbs can combine well with the mushroom experience, but only if you are already comfortable with that herb before taking the mushroom.

    My cat agrees with Alpha when he says that the potency varies wildly. Home grown mushrooms tend to be the strongest, and my cat would never venture above 3.5 dried grams. He finds that the experiences above this level are too disorientating to allow for anything constructive to be brought back. My cat believes that the entire point of tripping is to break down the boundaries of everyday existence, enter the overmind, and bring back an idea to incorporate into your own life or the lives of others. Doses in the region of five dried grammes may be approachable later in the pyschedelic journey, when one has mastered lesser dosages.

    Incidentally, my cat says that the mushroom tends to be quite forgiving to well-meaning beginners, and says that a dose in the region of 2.5 dried grammes of strong home grown mushrooms would be quite sufficient. My cat says that you should only trip around people you would trust with your life. You are going on a very disarming journey, and if you do not like or trust anybody in your tripping circle, the chances are that the trip will turn bad.

    If possible, you should trip with your closest friend, who will remain sober and act as a sitter. Try to remain positive and receptive to the messages you are receiving at all times, particularly if the trip turns bad. Remember that the mushrooms are not toxic and will can not cause you any lasting harm; bad trips will pass and usually make sense later on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2008
  7. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    First of all, thank you moda00 and WhiteRhino420 for putting this all together. Great stuff!
    and now...
    For the continued sake of accuracy:

    My friend, who has been growing mushrooms for about 3 years now, would have to agree that those trip descriptions are too subjective, and also disregard much of the physical anomalies associated with mushroom intoxication. Perhaps there is a more diplomatic, objective manner in which the same ideas can be conjured? However, implying an inherent elicitation of spirituality or contact with the deceased is equally subjective, and though no less valid, is no more qualified to be considered inherent manifestations of mushroom ingestion.

    7 grams for many could potentially be a waste of time, or a completely overwhelming journey, but so could the DXM '4th Plateau+', or a thumbprint of acid. This does not meant that these and the high dose mushroom experience should not be examined. It should be explained and has been well-examined for that specific characteristic. McKenna recommends a 7 gram dose to elicit the vocal ego, 'god voice'.

    Combinations of psilocybin and tryptamines, as well as some phenthylamines, have elicited amazing and insightful experiences in some people when taken responsibly, in reasonable doses, and with care.

    Potency has indeed been shown to vary intensly, even within batches, up to two-fold potency differences have been noted within single cakes! Is there any evidence for this second fact. My friends says he experienced this as well, but is not sure what causes the phenomenon. Any idea?

    I would like to add perhaps that in his experience, the 10/1 (wet/dry) weight is not scale is not exactly accurate, and could lead to some intensely high doses. I do not recommend using this scale, and has found that in his experience, if picked with a torn veil, a 7.5/1 scale is more accurate.
     
  8. Mr. Giraffe

    Mr. Giraffe Palladium Member

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    But of course. My cat means that he believes the experience is so totally subjective that trying to standardise every experience into categories seems as futile as trying to agree an answer to the question of what God is.

    I'm not sure about that. I have encountered McKenna's view of 5 dried grams as a heroic dose, a sure-fure ego destroying experience, but I'm not sure that he recommended 7. At the same time, it is worth noting that McKenna was urging the heroic dose on experienced trippers; 5 dried grammes would be too overwhelming to be useful for a beginner.

    My definition was too broad. Synthetic drugs as you describe could of course be successfully combined, though one would caution against combinations like alcohol.
     
  9. moda00

    moda00 R.I.P. Platinum Member & Advisor R.I.P.

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    Certainly, it is somewhat moot to try and assign exact dosages and their effects. And since different types, batches, and such can vary so greatly, it is difficult to standardize. As an example, as stated above, in swim's area the species (unsure), form (dried), and potency over the past 5-10 years have been pretty constant and her own input (1-1.75g beginner, 3-3.5g normal, 4-6g huge) on dosing applies to her geographic area and experiences. But in comparison with Alfa's chart, WhiteRhine420's chart, etc. it seems that offering this info must be clarified or omitted in order to avoid misinformation or confusion.

    That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with including some basic information on dosing, as it is better to have some sort of idea than to omit it all together and leave someone guessing. It just needs to be qualified, and perhaps stated that the best advice is to consult another person who has more experience in general and/or with that specific strain/batch as to an accurate dose. In addition, I do think it would be valuable to offer a list of effects. Certainly, one does not want to create a preconceived notion of a what a trip should be, or qualify effects as negative/positive/neutral as is often done in drug information literature and on Erowid. But a general list of possible effects could be a helpful tool, so those considering it know that they may possibly experience. Of course reading experience reports could be a similar way of gaining this knowledge, and I recommend doing so before trying a substance- not to influence one's trip or make it like someone else's, but to get a general idea of what they might experience so they can be somewhat mentally and physically prepared.

    Of course it is true that the mushroom experience cannot be put into words or accurately understood until one experiences it. But that doesn't mean some general info on possible effects should be entirely omitted. I do see your point that since dosing can vary, it might not be the wisest to try and link specific effects to specific doses.

    In addition, I think the most important thing from the post I linked to is the suggestions on preparation. Not that this is a requirement or a factual document which must be followed to the letter to have a good experience. But ideas such as set/setting, location, comfort, body temperature- blankets, lose clothing, food/water, possible physical side effects, possible ways to calm someone experiencing anxiety, planning for transportation, allowing time to come down and reflect without having other commitments immediately following the trip, thoughts on cell phones, tripping alone vs. with a person or people, how to select a guide, journaling/meditation, bringing things like art supplies, music, photos, etc.. some of these may seem obvious but some may not, and I feel these are important things to consider, especially for new trippers, so that each individual may decide which apply to them and get some ideas as to how to prepare.

    It is hard to generalize about drug combos. I agree that most drug experiences should be had on their own for maximum benefit and understanding, and that once someone is familiar with a drug's effects they can plan for combinations. But she does also think it may be valid to point out specific effects of common combos- for example, marijuana. Some really enjoy this and find it can help with the nausea. Some find it makes things too intense and detracts from their ability to go with the trip. Some find if smoked in the afterglow period it brings back psychedelic effects. This is not unbiased scientific information, but could be valuable to include.

    In addition, things like stimulants- while not necessarily the same concept as say meth and cocaine used together causing cardiovascular health risks, or SSRIs and ayahuasca (MAO/DMT) used together interacting badly/dangerously, it is also worth pointing out imho that stims during a psychedelic experience can greatly increase anxiety and are generally not recommended.

    Swim stands by her thoughts that possible harmful effects or discomfort should be addressed as one sees fit. So the concept that some trippers choose to make a benzo available for anxiety if needed (personally I do this, and personally it's never been needed)- but if it comes down to it swim sees this as harm reduction- if someone is at risk of harming themselves or others, or are considering an ER visit, this may be a way to avoid that and handle the situation with the least possible stress.

    Or for nausea, swim's first and only really bad trip, while certainly attributable to poor preparation, too high of a dose for a beginner, impulsive use, being alone and inside, dealing with some inner and external conflict and identity confusion, etc. she also found that the horrible "shroom stomach" caused increased psychic distress, and perhaps vice versa- they fed off one another. So the idea of making it known that some mushroom users experience this stomach upset while some never do, is just being honest about an aspect of mushroom use. It could include information about how to minimize this- example some say turning plant material into a tea/liquid can be easier on the digestive tract, someone mentioned that some plant/herb (passion flower?? I do not remember) can be used with the plant psychedelic to help with potential nausea. In addition, some are totally against using prescription or chemical drugs with psychedelics, because of the principle or because of the potential for them to slightly change or affect the pure psilocybin's effect.. to each his/her own. I have not chosen to "pre-treat" with chemical or prescription nausea meds most of the time, but some people do, and discussion of the options (Tums, Dramamine, promethazine, onansetron) I don't use these and doesn't know much about these, but if someone is considering making a nausea med available she does feel it would be valuable for a comprehensive FAQ to explain the options and what may or may not work- for example, the chemical mechanisms of these different substances and side effects, how that might effect the psiloc(yb)in's effect, which are more or less effective or harmful, etc. Again, she is not an expert on this, but would be willing to look into it, and feels that one's personal beliefs on the best way to take a substance should not prevent factual information and others' experiences from being presented.

    No hard feelings! :)

    Also, swim just thought of this- she thinks it would be neat to have a section on myths.. more prevalent with lsd, but she can think of a few regarding mushrooms. These wouldn't have to be extensive, but just a brief listing and whether they are accurate or inaccurate and why. One she can think of is the idea that dairy products/milk can stop a trip.. another that shrooms are laced with lsd..

    Anywho, just some thoughts..
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2008
  10. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    I like that idea. Perhaps the 'blue-stalk' phenomenon can be clarified as well. However, I believe the milk antidote is originally an LSD remedy, written about by Albert Hoffman after his wife administered a glass of warm milk to him in an attempt to quell the world's first LSD trip. Perhaps some clarification of the 'abort' issue as well. The preference of 'closed-cap' shrooms over open veils could also be addressed.
     
  11. moda00

    moda00 R.I.P. Platinum Member & Advisor R.I.P.

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    And the idea that the caps are the only part worth eating- the stems are worthless at worst, or contain less psychoactives at best. I have heard this several times. She has eaten both parts and doesn't really know, but it seems that this is purely urban legend. However, if she is to start typing something like this out she will absolutely research the facts.. I haven't heard of the closed-cap vs. open veil one.. is it purportedly related to potency?

    And how about the one that the substance in mushrooms that makes you "trip" is really a poison and the trip is the feeling of your brain being poisoned by it. LOL.
     
  12. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    I always heard you tripped on mushrooms because your brain was bleeding. That sounds accurate. And logical.

    In both my experience, and all the literature I have consumed on the subject, the conclusion is that psilocybin is evenly distributed throughout the fruiting body.

    The 'closed-cap' mushrooms supposedly contain more psilocybin (perhaps because it hasn't 'fallen out'?). Seems silly. Perhaps it is based on the fact that after a torn veil, any weight the mushroom gains is pure water, no psilocybin. <-This is a well reported occurrence.
     
  13. Mr. Giraffe

    Mr. Giraffe Palladium Member

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    Okay, you're either being sarcastic, or you're gonna have to go ahead and explain this in some detail. I'm nailing my flag to the 'mushrooms don't make your brain bleed' mast early on.
     
  14. Shampoo

    Shampoo entity of sorts Staff Member

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    Does that not sound reasonable? Just kidding. That is one of the most farfetched explanations for a psychedelic experience that I have ever encountered. We were talking about myths (i think) and I was always told that in grade school. I believe it was a DARE instructor that originally notified my of that fascinating phenomenon.
     
  15. heroin_ed

    heroin_ed Newbie

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    Somebody said that alcohol + 'shrooms is a recipe for disaster.

    That's probably one of the most true statements my dog has ever read, he has a story he would like to tell.

    One day my dog was hanging out with some kids. One of the kids ate 1/8th oz. of psilocybe cubensis. He then decided to get extremely drunk. My dog tells me that he was acting as if he was possessed. He kept picking up glass plates and candle holders and looking at my dog evily muttering, "What if I smashed this through your head?" and other evil things. My dog then punched him in the face after the kid started throwing glass across the room and laughing after which he seemed to snap out of whatever trance he was in. My dog and others told the kid of what he was doing the next day and was VERY embarrassed over the whole ordeal.

    So as you see by my dog's story. Don't ever combine shrooms and alcohol. Please.
     
  16. rev 766

    rev 766 Silver Member

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    swim flipped out bad at one point on psilocybin mushrooms, BAD. was walking around in a stupor and thought he would die. one of the worst trips of his life. so someone told him to let a valium dissolve under his tongue, and WHOOSH! happiness soon followed. thing is, swim dislikes benzos in general. being so messed up your falling asleep is only enjoyable with opiates. but he has learned to keep some around whenever possible, for just such an occasion.
     
  17. KevinB

    KevinB Newbie

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    Thats bizarre!!! I guess everyone's dogs are different. My dog always likes to drink beers before indulging in the shrooms. He tells me they take away any anxiety that may be present when consuming them. Then during the trip sometimes the thirst for beer continues and he goes on drinking sometimes is disappears and he drinks no more.
     
  18. bubbly nubs

    bubbly nubs Silver Member

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    As alcohol can make people violent I suppose that it doesn't surprise me. Imagine a profoundly confused drunk person - could be a recipe for disaster.
     
  19. Routemaster Flash

    Routemaster Flash Palladium Member

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    On a mushrooms plus alcohol tip, this SWIMmer has combined a modest dose of fresh cubensis fruiting bodies with a glass or two of good single malt whisky, and found the combination rather delightful. :)

    Also, as a recommendation for the mushrooms info page, how about a dose guide for P. semilanceata? That's the commonest wild species in the British Isles and perhaps much of the rest of Europe too.
     
  20. Sir Maximuus

    Sir Maximuus Newbie

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    I am confused. Are there supposed to be decimals on the dose chart? Because SWIM usually hears about half and 1/8th to an 1/8th for a beginner's dried dose... though, not sure what species he's talking about, probably cubensis.

    So if there are supposed to be decimals then perhaps You could add them.